Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

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neverfail
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by neverfail » Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:35 pm

Steve F. That you yourself might have had an agreeable relationship with Jewish individuals who have passed through your life or that the United States might have had a good though not unblemished record of accepting Jewish immigrants is neither here nor there. The subject matter under discussion is Jewish Settlements in the West Bank and one thing that the Zionist state of Israel is not and has never been is Palestinian friendly in policy.

They might not be using gas chambers to do it but the purpose of building Jewish settlements on the West Bank is part of the Zionist agenda to step by step drive the Palestinians and their entire culture to extinction.

Now, please cease waxing sanctimonious with adverse comparisons Europe versus the US and open your eyes to the truth.

Jim the Moron
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by Jim the Moron » Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:20 am

Arabs in general have never been "friendly in policy' regarding the survival of the Jewish State of Israel.

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Sertorio
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by Sertorio » Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:18 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:59 am
There used to be a lot more old-fashioned European-style anti-Semitism in the U.S. (FDR refused to allow Jews to flee here during the Holocaust, for example) but over the last half century that's dissipated.

Perhaps this is a function of North Americans being much better at socially and culturally assimilating newcomers than European societies are? And I"m not trying to be smug, it's just true.

Might that change over time? Anything's possible, but I'm talking about now, not some hypothetical future.
Well, that may be true of educated European or Asian immigrants, but poor and unschooled "newcomers" from Latin America are not so welcome... Isn't the wall on the southern border evidence of that?...

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by SteveFoerster » Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:31 am

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:18 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:59 am
There used to be a lot more old-fashioned European-style anti-Semitism in the U.S. (FDR refused to allow Jews to flee here during the Holocaust, for example) but over the last half century that's dissipated.

Perhaps this is a function of North Americans being much better at socially and culturally assimilating newcomers than European societies are? And I"m not trying to be smug, it's just true.

Might that change over time? Anything's possible, but I'm talking about now, not some hypothetical future.
Well, that may be true of educated European or Asian immigrants, but poor and unschooled "newcomers" from Latin America are not so welcome... Isn't the wall on the southern border evidence of that?...
The reason I said "socially and culturally" rather than "legally" is that I was talking about cultural assimilation, not about a foolish immigration policy meant to appeal to the baser sentiments of disaffected nativists.

For example, you may have heard of "Dreamers", a term for undocumented immigrants who were brought to the U.S. as children and who know no other country, yet who live under the sword of Damocles of having their tenuous "deferred action against childhood arrivals" status revoked by one administration or another. My eldest is friends with a Dreamer, his parents brought him here from Central America when he was a little kid, and this guy demonstrates my point about assimilation, because culturally he's as American as anyone. (The guy literally can't even speak Spanish.)
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neverfail
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by neverfail » Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:10 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:20 am
Arabs in general have never been "friendly in policy' regarding the survival of the Jewish State of Israel.
Well of course not Jim.

Would you be well disposed towards aggressive foreignors striving to take something away from you that you value?

neverfail
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by neverfail » Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:28 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:18 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:59 am
There used to be a lot more old-fashioned European-style anti-Semitism in the U.S. (FDR refused to allow Jews to flee here during the Holocaust, for example) but over the last half century that's dissipated.

Perhaps this is a function of North Americans being much better at socially and culturally assimilating newcomers than European societies are? And I"m not trying to be smug, it's just true.

Might that change over time? Anything's possible, but I'm talking about now, not some hypothetical future.
Well, that may be true of educated European or Asian immigrants, but poor and unschooled "newcomers" from Latin America are not so welcome... Isn't the wall on the southern border evidence of that?...
It is not just the Americans Sertorio. It seems that no one wants other country's poor and dispossessed.

Even as I write now there are thousands of penniless refugees from places like Afghanistan, Syria, Iran and Iraq along the Belarus-Polish border desperate to get through the razor wire fence the Polish government has built along their border to stop them from getting in. These desperados claim they are not interested in settling in Poland but only want to continue their transit on the the promised land of Germany. Of course the Germans (and others) don't really want them either so Poland's EU and NATO partners are supporting them in opposing the influx (along with the Belarus government's cynical ploy in inticing these hapless refugees there).

This after many years of millions of Sahel Africans striving to cross the Mediterranean into the likes of Italy and Spain and frequently perishing in the attempt. If they make it they end up being employed in the most menial jobs, when they can find even these.

The Europeans are no different to the Americans in the type of immigrants they prefer. Wake up Sertorio!

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Sertorio
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by Sertorio » Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:54 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:28 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 2:18 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Nov 14, 2021 4:59 am
There used to be a lot more old-fashioned European-style anti-Semitism in the U.S. (FDR refused to allow Jews to flee here during the Holocaust, for example) but over the last half century that's dissipated.

Perhaps this is a function of North Americans being much better at socially and culturally assimilating newcomers than European societies are? And I"m not trying to be smug, it's just true.

Might that change over time? Anything's possible, but I'm talking about now, not some hypothetical future.
Well, that may be true of educated European or Asian immigrants, but poor and unschooled "newcomers" from Latin America are not so welcome... Isn't the wall on the southern border evidence of that?...
It is not just the Americans Sertorio. It seems that no one wants other country's poor and dispossessed.

Even as I write now there are thousands of penniless refugees from places like Afghanistan, Syria, Iran and Iraq along the Belarus-Polish border desperate to get through the razor wire fence the Polish government has built along their border to stop them from getting in. These desperados claim they are not interested in settling in Poland but only want to continue their transit on the the promised land of Germany. Of course the Germans (and others) don't really want them either so Poland's EU and NATO partners are supporting them in opposing the influx (along with the Belarus government's cynical ploy in inticing these hapless refugees there).

This after many years of millions of Sahel Africans striving to cross the Mediterranean into the likes of Italy and Spain and frequently perishing in the attempt. If they make it they end up being employed in the most menial jobs, when they can find even these.

The Europeans are no different to the Americans in the type of immigrants they prefer. Wake up Sertorio!
And don't you realize that the best way to avoid that would have been not waging war against Iraq, Syria, Libya and Afghanistan?... By killing Sadam Hossein and Ghadafi, and trying to do the same to Bashar al-Assad, and helping to destroy their countries, the US and the EU have caused the refugee and migration problems. Being stupid has a price, which both Americans and Europeans are now faced with...

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cassowary
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by cassowary » Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:25 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sat Nov 13, 2021 3:03 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:06 am

This is not a human limitation. This is a limitation that some humans needlessly self-impose. I've spent most of my life in the Washington, D.C. area, and I guarantee you that Jews here are no less assimilated into American culture and society than I am. To be frank, if Jews have trouble getting along in other societies that sounds more like a failure of those societies than of theirs.
cassowary wrote:
Fri Nov 12, 2021 4:44 pm
I think Neverfail was talking about Jews of past centuries as since medieval times. Not today and in the Washington area. In your environment, jews have become very secular, like my atheist Jewish friend. So the cultural gap has narrowed.
Thanks Cass.

That you relate well to Jews living in your vicinity (as a rule, so do I) is beside the point. In the Old World they settled in the midst of so many gentile nations with many and varied cultures (with ultimately the same result of rejection) that I believe that it is ingenuous to automatically place the blame on the shoulders of their gentile would-be hosts. Furthermore, most of these played host to Jews for centuries. The United States is historically young and may not be destined to have it so good as it is used to over coming centuries - so please do not smugly presume that the present status ofJewry in your country is fixed and permanent forever.

Okay to be lovey-dovey tolerant when things are going well but the USA has not yet been truly tested over a prolonged period of ill fortune.
I think we all tend to base our opinions on our personal experiences. So perhaps the Jews in the Washington area are secular and get along with Steve, thus giving him the impression that its the same for all time and places. Things were different in the past and are still different in other parts of the world.

By now, most Jews are pretty secular and so are many gentiles in the advanced countries. So they get along quite well. Race, religion and language are always fault lines in any society. In my society, these fault lines are still moving and we are always afraid of earthquakes in our society.

If you go to the Middle East, you will find the gap between the Muslims and our modern societies is still very wide. That is why the US failed in Afghanistian to defeat the Taliban. The problem is that many Afghans still think like the Taliban. One generation of US aid failed to eradicate that. I suspect that many of the Afghan soliders who were better armed and more numerous than the Taliban feared that killing them will earn themselves hellfire. So they threw away their weapons.

The problem was that most Americans in Washington probably think like Steve where the Jews and Muslims in the Washington area are secular, Americanised and so open to modernity. But things are different in Afghanistan and other parts.
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neverfail
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by neverfail » Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:20 pm

cassowary wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 9:25 pm

I think we all tend to base our opinions on our personal experiences. So perhaps the Jews in the Washington area are secular and get along with Steve, thus giving him the impression that its the same for all time and places. Things were different in the past and are still different in other parts of the world.

By now, most Jews are pretty secular and so are many gentiles in the advanced countries. So they get along quite well. Race, religion and language are always fault lines in any society. In my society, these fault lines are still moving and we are always afraid of earthquakes in our society.

If you go to the Middle East, you will find the gap between the Muslims and our modern societies is still very wide. That is why the US failed in Afghanistian to defeat the Taliban. The problem is that many Afghans still think like the Taliban. One generation of US aid failed to eradicate that. I suspect that many of the Afghan soliders who were better armed and more numerous than the Taliban feared that killing them will earn themselves hellfire. So they threw away their weapons.

The problem was that most Americans in Washington probably think like Steve where the Jews and Muslims in the Washington area are secular, Americanised and so open to modernity. But things are different in Afghanistan and other parts.
Hi Cass, you present a plausable case above that I am largely in agreement with - for now. I would even go a step further. It is precisely because the Americans along with their Western allies abroad are so worldly in their interests (and believe wrongly that everyone else is too) that they failed to understand and come to terms with the Afghans. They could not comprehend a people who did not regard worldly success as the be-all and end-all of everything (or like mediaevil Christians; who held to the conviction that this brief spell of earthly existence it merely a preparation period for the eternal afterlife to come.)

Even I would lack insight into this difference between our world and theirs except that I received my school education from Irish scholar monks - who spiritually (I have realised since after years of reflection) were a lot like Mediaevil Christians in their way of thinking. (Yes Cass, it is entirely possible for a bubble of spirituality from out of the Gothic Middle Ages to survive into our times). Very few in Western society today have had the benefit of an experience like that; hence the modern lack of empathy with peoples who live that way.

..... and you know Cass, I don't believe that secularism is the final answer. Only a temporary palative.

Secularism seems to mean that nothing is held to be sacred: in the end not even human life.

Beware!

neverfail
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Re: Jewish Settlements in the West Bank

Post by neverfail » Mon Nov 15, 2021 10:55 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Mon Nov 15, 2021 1:20 am
Arabs in general have never been "friendly in policy' regarding the survival of the Jewish State of Israel.
Two wrongs have never made a right.

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