Is the CCP facing a civil war?

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Doc
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Re: Is the CCP facing a civil war?

Post by Doc » Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:17 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:14 am
Doc wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:02 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:59 am
Doc wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:52 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 9:42 am
Doc wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 8:55 am


Thanks for finally acknowledging the CCP seeks empire.
The Chinese empire was created from local components, the so-called Warring States period (476 – 221 BC). So, the CCP does not seek an Empire, it seeks to preserve its historical unity.
It seeks to claim parts of the world it never occupied previously.
Such as...
The South China sea. When before its current building of islands there did the PLA occupy those islands or physically take possession of those islands from other countries? Creating a great deal of environmental damage in the process of building those islands of sand.

All of which was found to be illegal by the World Court.
China claims those islands are theirs. But even if one or two are not, it's not something comparable to, for instance, the occupation and annexation of the independent kingdom of Hawaii... Isn't it?... 8-)
That is not an answer to my question
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Sertorio
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Re: Is the CCP facing a civil war?

Post by Sertorio » Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:24 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:16 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:33 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:41 am
You're right, it doesn't even remotely compare... since China is doing this today, whereas the U.S. annexed Hawaii in the 19th century.
The putting down of statues of Confederate Generals seems to indicate that, for Americans, what happened in the 19th century is not indifferent... So, maybe the US should give back Hawaii to their original inhabitants, which would make its arguments against the occupation of a couple of South China Sea islets a lot more convincing...
Except that in 1959 there was a referendum among Hawaiians on statehood, which passed. And since we all know from what you've said about Crimea that referenda are a valid way of determining the will of the people, there's no need for Hawaii to split off now.
While in Crimea the majority of voters were ethnic Russian, I'm sure that in Hawaii they were mostly mainland born Americans. The result of the referendum in Hawaii can hardly be seen as the expression of the will of the Hawaiian people...

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Re: Is the CCP facing a civil war?

Post by SteveFoerster » Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:29 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:24 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:16 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:33 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:41 am
You're right, it doesn't even remotely compare... since China is doing this today, whereas the U.S. annexed Hawaii in the 19th century.
The putting down of statues of Confederate Generals seems to indicate that, for Americans, what happened in the 19th century is not indifferent... So, maybe the US should give back Hawaii to their original inhabitants, which would make its arguments against the occupation of a couple of South China Sea islets a lot more convincing...
Except that in 1959 there was a referendum among Hawaiians on statehood, which passed. And since we all know from what you've said about Crimea that referenda are a valid way of determining the will of the people, there's no need for Hawaii to split off now.
While in Crimea the majority of voters were ethnic Russian, I'm sure that in Hawaii they were mostly mainland born Americans. The result of the referendum in Hawaii can hardly be seen as the expression of the will of the Hawaiian people...
Ah, so it's more like the Chinese in Tibet and East Turkestan. Got it.
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Re: Is the CCP facing a civil war?

Post by SteveFoerster » Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:31 pm

It's also good to know that you support the independence of Taiwan, since that too is clearly the overwhelming will of the majority who live there, from every demographic group.
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Re: Is the CCP facing a civil war?

Post by Sertorio » Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:38 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:31 pm
It's also good to know that you support the independence of Taiwan, since that too is clearly the overwhelming will of the majority who live there, from every demographic group.
If you accept secession by a state or region of a particular country - and your war between the states seems to indicate that Americans do not recognize such right - then I agree that Taiwan would have the right to secede, if supported by the majority of its people. By the way, would you accept today a Texas secession?...

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Re: Is the CCP facing a civil war?

Post by Sertorio » Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:40 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:29 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:24 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:16 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:33 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:41 am
You're right, it doesn't even remotely compare... since China is doing this today, whereas the U.S. annexed Hawaii in the 19th century.
The putting down of statues of Confederate Generals seems to indicate that, for Americans, what happened in the 19th century is not indifferent... So, maybe the US should give back Hawaii to their original inhabitants, which would make its arguments against the occupation of a couple of South China Sea islets a lot more convincing...
Except that in 1959 there was a referendum among Hawaiians on statehood, which passed. And since we all know from what you've said about Crimea that referenda are a valid way of determining the will of the people, there's no need for Hawaii to split off now.
While in Crimea the majority of voters were ethnic Russian, I'm sure that in Hawaii they were mostly mainland born Americans. The result of the referendum in Hawaii can hardly be seen as the expression of the will of the Hawaiian people...
Ah, so it's more like the Chinese in Tibet and East Turkestan. Got it.
Tibet and Xinjiang were historically part of China...

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Re: Is the CCP facing a civil war?

Post by Doc » Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:04 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:38 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:31 pm
It's also good to know that you support the independence of Taiwan, since that too is clearly the overwhelming will of the majority who live there, from every demographic group.
If you accept secession by a state or region of a particular country - and your war between the states seems to indicate that Americans do not recognize such right - then I agree that Taiwan would have the right to secede, if supported by the majority of its people. By the way, would you accept today a Texas secession?...
Taiwan has inherently never been part of CCP controlled China... Therefore it is not about succession....
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Re: Is the CCP facing a civil war?

Post by SteveFoerster » Wed Nov 03, 2021 1:19 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:40 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:29 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:24 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:16 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 11:33 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 10:41 am
You're right, it doesn't even remotely compare... since China is doing this today, whereas the U.S. annexed Hawaii in the 19th century.
The putting down of statues of Confederate Generals seems to indicate that, for Americans, what happened in the 19th century is not indifferent... So, maybe the US should give back Hawaii to their original inhabitants, which would make its arguments against the occupation of a couple of South China Sea islets a lot more convincing...
Except that in 1959 there was a referendum among Hawaiians on statehood, which passed. And since we all know from what you've said about Crimea that referenda are a valid way of determining the will of the people, there's no need for Hawaii to split off now.
While in Crimea the majority of voters were ethnic Russian, I'm sure that in Hawaii they were mostly mainland born Americans. The result of the referendum in Hawaii can hardly be seen as the expression of the will of the Hawaiian people...
Ah, so it's more like the Chinese in Tibet and East Turkestan. Got it.
Tibet and Xinjiang were historically part of China...
East Turkestan and Tibet have been controlled by various external powers over the centuries, including China. They're no more inherently a part of China than Hawaii is the U.S.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
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neverfail
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Re: Is the CCP facing a civil war?

Post by neverfail » Wed Nov 03, 2021 3:09 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:38 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Nov 03, 2021 12:31 pm
It's also good to know that you support the independence of Taiwan, since that too is clearly the overwhelming will of the majority who live there, from every demographic group.
If you accept secession by a state or region of a particular country - and your war between the states seems to indicate that Americans do not recognize such right - then I agree that Taiwan would have the right to secede, if supported by the majority of its people. By the way, would you accept today a Texas secession?...
You and I might even live to see the United States disintegrate. When the 13 states that formed the CSA seceeded back in 1861 there was not a single clause in the US constitution that said that they could not do so: so legally those 13 states were only exercising their constitutional right. Conversely President Abe Lincoln may have been acting "unconstitutionally" (i.e. illegally) by sending the US army south to force these states back into the American Union against their will.

One might have thought that either while the war still raged or very soon after the US Congress would have passed a constitutional amendment outlawing succession and prescribing penalties against states that made any such further move. yet incredably, no such amendment has been added to their constitution to this day.

That the breakup of the US has not happened yet is likely due entirely to the fact that the level of public disaffection has not yet built up to that point - but it is bound to do so sooner or later.

They talk of the American dream? Yet is not a dream a fleeting, nebulous sort of thing to built a country around?

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Re: Is the CCP facing a civil war?

Post by lzzrdgrrl » Wed Nov 03, 2021 4:12 pm

neverfail wrote:You and I might even live to see the United States disintegrate. When the 13 states that formed the CSA seceeded back in 1861 there was not a single clause in the US constitution that said that they could not do so: so legally those 13 states were only exercising their constitutional right. Conversely President Abe Lincoln may have been acting "unconstitutionally" (i.e. illegally) by sending the US army south to force these states back into the American Union against their will.
That's the kernel of the lost cause mythos, which the United States has extended to her entire national entity in the arena of global affairs.......
I have a certain notoriety among the lesser gods........

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