Rumors of war.

Discussion of current events
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Doc
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Rumors of war.

Post by Doc » Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:55 pm

“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Sertorio
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Re: Rumors of war.

Post by Sertorio » Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:00 pm

China has the right to control its rebel province of Taiwan. If, due to US interference, that can only be achieved by military means, the fault will be exclusively American.

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Milo
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Re: Rumors of war.

Post by Milo » Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:01 pm

And even more obvious, below. (I have noted cross-deck operations between France and the US, UK and the US, and now Japan and the US; over the course of less than a year. These are unparalleled demonstrations of operational capabilities that the PRC cannot dream of.)

Clearly our ship was symbolic but I note all of China’s allies helping it… that would be none
As international tension simmered this week over Taiwan, the Pacific Ocean saw a not-so-subtle display of allied military solidarity — one that included a Canadian frigate.

A joint military exercise off the Japanese island of Okinawa this past weekend brought together three western aircraft carrier strike groups and a Japanese helicopter carrier that's now able to launch F-35 stealth fighters.

The assembly, which included 17 ships from six different countries, sent an unmistakable message to China.

In an exclusive interview, the commander of the United Kingdom Carrier Strike Group 21 (CSG21) task force told CBC News that the one-day exercise was a demonstration of solidarity and of how western allies can work seamlessly together.

"It's an important message for those here that nations like ourselves really do believe in the freedom of navigation, in the freedom of trade and really are alarmed at the militarization of the area," said Royal Navy Commodore Steve Moorhouse.

Message received

He said he has no doubt that the message was understood.

"Chinese intelligence-gathering vessels were in the region," he said. "So I have absolutely no doubt the message would have been relayed back to China quite quickly."

The exercise was a milestone in several ways. Since the end of the Second World War, the Japanese have not possessed aircraft carriers and their military has maintained a defensive posture. Last weekend's fighter jet trial saw a US Marine F-35B land on and take off from the helicopter carrier JS Izumo — making it a de-facto fixed-wing aircraft carrier.

The exercise was also one of the largest gatherings of aircraft carriers in the Pacific in decades.

Commander Doug Layton, the skipper of HMCS Winnipeg, told CBC News that the sight of so many big warships and so much firepower gathered in one space left the sailors aboard his frigate in awe.

"You should have seen the looks on their faces," Layton said, adding that at one point, "twelve fighter jets overflew us, a combination of F35s and F18s."

The Canadian frigate was edged in beside and escorting HMS Queen Elizabeth, the Royal Navy's newest aircraft carrier, which is on a world tour.

"I've been in the navy for 20 years and I have never been in such a showcase of naval power," said Layton.

The British have been largely absent from the Pacific Ocean for nearly two decades. Moorhouse said the Royal Navy has been re-learning how to operate in that vast expanse. The voyage is helping to lay the groundwork for the semi-permanent stationing of two British warships in the region, he added.

It was reported late Thursday by international media that U.S. nuclear submarine that was not part of the large exercise collided over the weekend with an "unknown object" while submerged in the South China Sea.

It was not clear what caused the incident on Saturday, but American officials said the USS Connecticut remains "fully operational." The accident injured 11 sailors.

While the exercise was taking place, China's People's Liberation Army Air Force was in the midst of a series of sorties into Taiwan's air defence zone.

Over several consecutive days, some of Beijing's most advanced fighters and bombers skirted the disputed island's actual airspace — within the buffer zone around it.

As many as 150 planes took part in the incursions.

The flights started on Friday, China's national day, and were described by the U.S. State Department as "provocative" and "destabilizing."

Many experts said the timing of the flights was not surprising — but the number of warplanes involved was.

Julie Clark, a fellow with the Canadian Global Affairs Institute who teaches at the University of Waterloo, said Beijing likely felt compelled to put a forceful display after the recent announcement of a security arrangement involving the U.S., the U.K. and Australia, which will see the latter acquire nuclear submarine technology.

China pushes back

The incursions "seem to be a strong message to the West — particularly to the United States with some of their recent moves with strategic security alliances — to indicate they're not a country in which they can be pushed around," said Clark.

The recent summit in Washington of the so-called Quadrilateral (Quad) nations — a strategic security dialogue involving the United States, India, Japan and Australia — also probably got under China's skin, Clark suggested.

On Wednesday, it was announced that the presidents of the U.S. and China will hold a virtual summit later this year.

Clark said that event will be a very important opportunity to reduce the growing tensions in the region. Many of China's neighbours have been rattled by Beijing's military buildup and provocative actions — but equally, Clark said, those countries are being given a stark choice as allied military displays become more noticeable.

"There have been moves from other Asian countries — or at least pressure on them — to take a side," she said.
https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/a ... ar-AAPgGGt

neverfail
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Re: Rumors of war.

Post by neverfail » Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:45 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:00 pm
China has the right to control its rebel province of Taiwan.
"Rebel province" my Aunt Fanny's bum! The Communist Party of China NEVER ruled the island so it could not possibly be a rebel outpost.

Instead, the CCP historically were the rebels who overthrew the government that had previously ruled both mainland China and Taiwan. But of course the CCP wants us to forget that inconvenient detail for the sake of a presumed authority that it not rightfully theirs to have.

Excuse my pungently expressed reaction (above) but I get so very mad when I see blatant lies being published.

You would demonstrate much greater integrity were you to condemn the lie as I do.

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Sertorio
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Re: Rumors of war.

Post by Sertorio » Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:11 pm

neverfail wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:45 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 2:00 pm
China has the right to control its rebel province of Taiwan.
"Rebel province" my Aunt Fanny's bum! The Communist Party of China NEVER ruled the island so it could not possibly be a rebel outpost.

Instead, the CCP historically were the rebels who overthrew the government that had previously ruled both mainland China and Taiwan. But of course the CCP wants us to forget that inconvenient detail for the sake of a presumed authority that it not rightfully theirs to have.

Excuse my pungently expressed reaction (above) but I get so very mad when I see blatant lies being published.

You would demonstrate much greater integrity were you to condemn the lie as I do.
Your American friends rebelled against their mother country; they waged war on Mexico to steal land which was rightfully Mexican; they violently conquered the independent kingdom of Hawaii. And you say that China has no right to exert their sovereign power over Taiwan, a power which is recognized by most countries in the world, including the US and Australia? Your bogus indignation is completely misplaced.

neverfail
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Re: Rumors of war.

Post by neverfail » Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:15 am

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:11 pm
Your American friends rebelled against their mother country; they waged war on Mexico to steal land which was rightfully Mexican; they violently conquered the independent kingdom of Hawaii.
All irrelevant stuff with no relevance to the point.
And you say that China has no right to exert their sovereign power over Taiwan, a power which is recognized by most countries in the world, including the US and Australia? Your bogus indignation is completely misplaced.
My real indignation is justified.

When the PRC attempts to stigmatise Taiwan as a "rebel province" they are fielding a propagandist's lie as a tool to get what they want. I am powerless to do anything other than to expose the lie for what it is.

I do not believe that you are so dumb Sertorio that you would be unaware of the fallacy that PRC propaganda promotes. That you are willing to repeat their lie on this website reflects badly on you.

That countries (or rather their governments) around the world have conveniencly subscribed to the PRC blackmail for the sake of the benefits of diplomatic representation in Beijing does nothing to legetimise Beijing's claim to hold soverignty over the island. It rather reflects badly on those governments (including Australia's) for placing expedience ahead of principled natural justice.

Symbolically, metaphorically, those governments have as much as re-crucified Jesus Christ - who was sent to his death on the cross because it was expedient for Pontous Pilate to despatch him to such a a horrible execution rather than show backbone by standing up to the Jewish lynch mob howling for his blood.

Taiwan in my opinion deserves international recognition and support more than the PRC does on the basis of merit. It is everything that the PRC is not. Am I a dreamer believing that international relations should be conducted on the basis if fairness, not convenience, in that way? Yes, I am - as much as you are about socialism.

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Sertorio
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Re: Rumors of war.

Post by Sertorio » Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:34 am

neverfail wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:15 am
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:11 pm
Your American friends rebelled against their mother country; they waged war on Mexico to steal land which was rightfully Mexican; they violently conquered the independent kingdom of Hawaii.
All irrelevant stuff with no relevance to the point.
And you say that China has no right to exert their sovereign power over Taiwan, a power which is recognized by most countries in the world, including the US and Australia? Your bogus indignation is completely misplaced.
My real indignation is justified.

When the PRC attempts to stigmatise Taiwan as a "rebel province" they are fielding a propagandist's lie as a tool to get what they want. I am powerless to do anything other than to expose the lie for what it is.

I do not believe that you are so dumb Sertorio that you would be unaware of the fallacy that PRC propaganda promotes. That you are willing to repeat their lie on this website reflects badly on you.

That countries (or rather their governments) around the world have conveniencly subscribed to the PRC blackmail for the sake of the benefits of diplomatic representation in Beijing does nothing to legetimise Beijing's claim to hold soverignty over the island. It rather reflects badly on those governments (including Australia's) for placing expedience ahead of principled natural justice.

Symbolically, metaphorically, those governments have as much as re-crucified Jesus Christ - who was sent to his death on the cross because it was expedient for Pontous Pilate to despatch him to such a a horrible execution rather than show backbone by standing up to the Jewish lynch mob howling for his blood.

Taiwan in my opinion deserves international recognition and support more than the PRC does on the basis of merit. It is everything that the PRC is not. Am I a dreamer believing that international relations should be conducted on the basis if fairness, not convenience, in that way? Yes, I am - as much as you are about socialism.
Taiwan became part of China in 1683 and remained under Chinese sovereignty from 1683 to 1895 and, after a short Japanese rule, from 1945 to our days. If Taiwan wants to secede from China it must be able to do so on its own, without the assistance of any other country. And no country should assist the Taiwanese in their endeavour. Or else, shouldn't, for instance, Germany assist Catalonia becoming independent, or Russia assist Scotland in seceding from the UK?...

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Doc
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Re: Rumors of war.

Post by Doc » Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:35 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:34 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:15 am
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:11 pm
Your American friends rebelled against their mother country; they waged war on Mexico to steal land which was rightfully Mexican; they violently conquered the independent kingdom of Hawaii.
All irrelevant stuff with no relevance to the point.
And you say that China has no right to exert their sovereign power over Taiwan, a power which is recognized by most countries in the world, including the US and Australia? Your bogus indignation is completely misplaced.
My real indignation is justified.

When the PRC attempts to stigmatise Taiwan as a "rebel province" they are fielding a propagandist's lie as a tool to get what they want. I am powerless to do anything other than to expose the lie for what it is.

I do not believe that you are so dumb Sertorio that you would be unaware of the fallacy that PRC propaganda promotes. That you are willing to repeat their lie on this website reflects badly on you.

That countries (or rather their governments) around the world have conveniencly subscribed to the PRC blackmail for the sake of the benefits of diplomatic representation in Beijing does nothing to legetimise Beijing's claim to hold soverignty over the island. It rather reflects badly on those governments (including Australia's) for placing expedience ahead of principled natural justice.

Symbolically, metaphorically, those governments have as much as re-crucified Jesus Christ - who was sent to his death on the cross because it was expedient for Pontous Pilate to despatch him to such a a horrible execution rather than show backbone by standing up to the Jewish lynch mob howling for his blood.

Taiwan in my opinion deserves international recognition and support more than the PRC does on the basis of merit. It is everything that the PRC is not. Am I a dreamer believing that international relations should be conducted on the basis if fairness, not convenience, in that way? Yes, I am - as much as you are about socialism.
Taiwan became part of China in 1683 and remained under Chinese sovereignty from 1683 to 1895 and, after a short Japanese rule, from 1945 to our days. If Taiwan wants to secede from China it must be able to do so on its own, without the assistance of any other country. And no country should assist the Taiwanese in their endeavour. Or else, shouldn't, for instance, Germany assist Catalonia becoming independent, or Russia assist Scotland in seceding from the UK?...
So again you are asserting that the CCP has the right to use its might. ...Ok...

“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Sertorio
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Re: Rumors of war.

Post by Sertorio » Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:39 am

Doc wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:35 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:34 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:15 am
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:11 pm
Your American friends rebelled against their mother country; they waged war on Mexico to steal land which was rightfully Mexican; they violently conquered the independent kingdom of Hawaii.
All irrelevant stuff with no relevance to the point.
And you say that China has no right to exert their sovereign power over Taiwan, a power which is recognized by most countries in the world, including the US and Australia? Your bogus indignation is completely misplaced.
My real indignation is justified.

When the PRC attempts to stigmatise Taiwan as a "rebel province" they are fielding a propagandist's lie as a tool to get what they want. I am powerless to do anything other than to expose the lie for what it is.

I do not believe that you are so dumb Sertorio that you would be unaware of the fallacy that PRC propaganda promotes. That you are willing to repeat their lie on this website reflects badly on you.

That countries (or rather their governments) around the world have conveniencly subscribed to the PRC blackmail for the sake of the benefits of diplomatic representation in Beijing does nothing to legetimise Beijing's claim to hold soverignty over the island. It rather reflects badly on those governments (including Australia's) for placing expedience ahead of principled natural justice.

Symbolically, metaphorically, those governments have as much as re-crucified Jesus Christ - who was sent to his death on the cross because it was expedient for Pontous Pilate to despatch him to such a a horrible execution rather than show backbone by standing up to the Jewish lynch mob howling for his blood.

Taiwan in my opinion deserves international recognition and support more than the PRC does on the basis of merit. It is everything that the PRC is not. Am I a dreamer believing that international relations should be conducted on the basis if fairness, not convenience, in that way? Yes, I am - as much as you are about socialism.
Taiwan became part of China in 1683 and remained under Chinese sovereignty from 1683 to 1895 and, after a short Japanese rule, from 1945 to our days. If Taiwan wants to secede from China it must be able to do so on its own, without the assistance of any other country. And no country should assist the Taiwanese in their endeavour. Or else, shouldn't, for instance, Germany assist Catalonia becoming independent, or Russia assist Scotland in seceding from the UK?...
So again you are asserting that the CCP has the right to use its might. ...Ok...
In order to defend its sovereign rights, of course it may. Just like the US or any other country...

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Doc
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Re: Rumors of war.

Post by Doc » Sun Oct 10, 2021 10:31 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:39 am
Doc wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 9:35 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:34 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Oct 10, 2021 5:15 am
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 3:11 pm
Your American friends rebelled against their mother country; they waged war on Mexico to steal land which was rightfully Mexican; they violently conquered the independent kingdom of Hawaii.
All irrelevant stuff with no relevance to the point.
And you say that China has no right to exert their sovereign power over Taiwan, a power which is recognized by most countries in the world, including the US and Australia? Your bogus indignation is completely misplaced.
My real indignation is justified.

When the PRC attempts to stigmatise Taiwan as a "rebel province" they are fielding a propagandist's lie as a tool to get what they want. I am powerless to do anything other than to expose the lie for what it is.

I do not believe that you are so dumb Sertorio that you would be unaware of the fallacy that PRC propaganda promotes. That you are willing to repeat their lie on this website reflects badly on you.

That countries (or rather their governments) around the world have conveniencly subscribed to the PRC blackmail for the sake of the benefits of diplomatic representation in Beijing does nothing to legetimise Beijing's claim to hold soverignty over the island. It rather reflects badly on those governments (including Australia's) for placing expedience ahead of principled natural justice.

Symbolically, metaphorically, those governments have as much as re-crucified Jesus Christ - who was sent to his death on the cross because it was expedient for Pontous Pilate to despatch him to such a a horrible execution rather than show backbone by standing up to the Jewish lynch mob howling for his blood.

Taiwan in my opinion deserves international recognition and support more than the PRC does on the basis of merit. It is everything that the PRC is not. Am I a dreamer believing that international relations should be conducted on the basis if fairness, not convenience, in that way? Yes, I am - as much as you are about socialism.
Taiwan became part of China in 1683 and remained under Chinese sovereignty from 1683 to 1895 and, after a short Japanese rule, from 1945 to our days. If Taiwan wants to secede from China it must be able to do so on its own, without the assistance of any other country. And no country should assist the Taiwanese in their endeavour. Or else, shouldn't, for instance, Germany assist Catalonia becoming independent, or Russia assist Scotland in seceding from the UK?...
So again you are asserting that the CCP has the right to use its might. ...Ok...
In order to defend its sovereign rights, of course it may. Just like the US or any other country...
The CCP has never controlled Taiwan. But OK By your logic you want to give Poland back to the Nazis, and since the Nazis controlled Poland from 1938 until 1945 And no other country should get involved.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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