The US Doesn't Know What To Do About Taiwan

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Sertorio
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Re: The Chinese civil war has still not ended.

Post by Sertorio » Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:30 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:09 am
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 1:28 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 3:13 pm

No, but foreseeing what their actions in Hong Kong would do to their reputation hardly required a violation of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle -- it was quite obvious.
Besides whatever legitimate reasons some Hong Kong people might have had to demand more democracy, there is absolutely no doubt that the troubles in Hong Kong were stirred by the US and the UK in order to make life difficult for China. Beijing had to respond, and they did. And the US and the UK couldn't give a damn about the fact that people in Hong Kong ended up worse off. Because they never cared about people's rights, only about making China look bad.
No other country is required to make China look bad. They do just fine with that on their own.

Besides, you're the last one who gets to talk about not giving a damn about victims of that dreadful regime.
They may have been victims of the regime, but they were also the victims of US and UK interference. And these two countries were only interested in embarrassing China, not in improving the quality of life of Hong Kong's people. Just as they didn't give a damn about the rights of the Afghan people. Afghans and the Hong Kong people were just cannon fodder in the Anglo wars of attrition.

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SteveFoerster
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Re: The Chinese civil war has still not ended.

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:47 am

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:30 am
And these two countries were only interested in embarrassing China, not in improving the quality of life of Hong Kong's people.
UK policymakers did: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-55847572

But I agree that American policymakers should follow suit, offering permanent residency to any Hong Konger on arrival.
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Sertorio
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Re: The Chinese civil war has still not ended.

Post by Sertorio » Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:10 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:47 am
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:30 am
And these two countries were only interested in embarrassing China, not in improving the quality of life of Hong Kong's people.
UK policymakers did: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-55847572

But I agree that American policymakers should follow suit, offering permanent residency to any Hong Konger on arrival.
Do you really believe the UK will take any Hong Kong person applying for a visa to the UK? As far as I could see in the British press, about 35,000 Hongkongers applied, out of the nearly 5 million who would be entitled to such a visa.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... two-months

If people in Hong Kong were truly afraid of suffering under the new Beijing laws, there would have been lots more applicants...

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Doc
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Re: The Chinese civil war has still not ended.

Post by Doc » Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:24 am

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:10 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:47 am
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:30 am
And these two countries were only interested in embarrassing China, not in improving the quality of life of Hong Kong's people.
UK policymakers did: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-55847572

But I agree that American policymakers should follow suit, offering permanent residency to any Hong Konger on arrival.
Do you really believe the UK will take any Hong Kong person applying for a visa to the UK? As far as I could see in the British press, about 35,000 Hongkongers applied, out of the nearly 5 million who would be entitled to such a visa.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/ ... two-months

If people in Hong Kong were truly afraid of suffering under the new Beijing laws, there would have been lots more applicants...
First how many applied to doesn't have much to do with your implication that the UK will not take them. Secondly, as I recall, the CCP is not honoring British passports held by HKers for exiting the country. SO the only ones that are allowed to leave are those that can get a CCP exit visa.

Given the CCP's social credit system good luck for anyone in Hong Kong applying for an exit visa.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

uche africanus
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Re: The US Doesn't Know What To Do About Taiwan

Post by uche africanus » Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:13 am

I do not know what it will take to convince the elites and rulers in Taiwan that their country is a major strategic liability to the United States, and that we have have neither the capacity nor the inclination to defend them in an all out war with China. It is just the simple truth.

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Doc
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Re: The US Doesn't Know What To Do About Taiwan

Post by Doc » Wed Oct 13, 2021 10:10 am

uche africanus wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:13 am
I do not know what it will take to convince the elites and rulers in Taiwan that their country is a major strategic liability to the United States, and that we have have neither the capacity nor the inclination to defend them in an all out war with China. It is just the simple truth.
72% of the world advanced semi conductors are produced in Taiwan. Without that semiconductor manufacturing capacity the world economy and maybe civilization itself will collapse. An invasion of Taiwan will likely destroy that capacity.

Not to mention Taiwan is a liberal democracy whose citizens do not want to be ruled by the totalitarian CCP.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

neverfail
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Re: The US Doesn't Know What To Do About Taiwan

Post by neverfail » Wed Oct 13, 2021 2:51 pm

uche africanus wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 9:13 am
I do not know what it will take to convince the elites and rulers in Taiwan that their country is a major strategic liability to the United States, and that we have have neither the capacity nor the inclination to defend them in an all out war with China. It is just the simple truth.
Your choice of that word "we" is very revealing as to how you identify yourself these days, Uche.

A Freudian slip par excellence? :D

uche africanus
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Re: The US Doesn't Know What To Do About Taiwan

Post by uche africanus » Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:46 pm

neverfail,

Trust me when l say that l do not understand your point and what my use of “we” reveals. My point is a very simple one and worth repeating, and that is that United States can no longer afford to engage in wars and adventures that bleeds our treasury and leaves our children dead and broken when we have no strategic interests to protect or defend. Taiwan is a strategic liability and there is nothing that we can do to prevent China taking it over. The best scenario is the one we had always encouraged, that China’s take over been done peacefully.

uche africanus
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Re: The US Doesn't Know What To Do About Taiwan

Post by uche africanus » Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:53 pm

Doc,

That’s all the more reason to set up alternative factories and supply chains for micro chips and not be so dependent on Taiwan. It is logical to do so than to engage in a suicidal war with China over a province of China that we lack the capacity defend. This is the time for clear thinking and preparing for that period when China will absorb Taiwan into its fold.

neverfail
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Re: The US Doesn't Know What To Do About Taiwan

Post by neverfail » Wed Oct 13, 2021 8:43 pm

uche africanus wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:46 pm
neverfail,

Trust me when l say that l do not understand your point and what my use of “we” reveals. My point is a very simple one and worth repeating, and that is that United States can no longer afford to engage in wars and adventures that bleeds our treasury and leaves our children dead and broken when we have no strategic interests to protect or defend. Taiwan is a strategic liability and there is nothing that we can do to prevent China taking it over. The best scenario is the one we had always encouraged, that China’s take over been done peacefully.
It relates to self-image Uche. Within the context of your post that "we" suggests that you identify as an American.

I agree with your contention that the PRC, not America, occupies the geostrategic high ground re. Taiwan. I also agree that while the PRC is rumoured to have a national debt that as a % of GDP is as large as that of the United States. However while the USA owes a significent part of its debt to foreign investors the PRC owes all of its debt to its own citizens (i.e. via its banks). Like the Japanese, Chinese people like to have savings nest eggs salted away rather than run up credit card debts; so the PRCD government always has that to draw upon (unlike the US government). So even in that dimension the PRC would find a conventional war to take Taiwan far more affordable than the USA would to defend the island.

There is however an alternative reason why the USA might be moved to defend Taiwan and it has nothing to do with utility and eveything to do with what the island symbolises. Taiwan has successfully transformed from a dictatorial tyranny into a thriving democracy. If the USA fails to rally to Taiwan's defence I am sure plenty of Americans will be left feeling that their country has betrayed everything that it purports to believe in.
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P.S. wishing for a peaceful unification is equivalent to howling for the moon since the PRc government betrayed thye terms and conditions of its agreement entered into at the time of the British handover of Hong Kong. Taiwanese now know that they cannot trust the PRC government to stick to its committments.

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