Why America failed in Afghanistan

Discussion of current events
User avatar
Doc
Posts: 6118
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:09 pm
Location: Cradle To Grave

Re: Why America failed in Afghanistan

Post by Doc » Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:57 am

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:59 am
Doc wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:11 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:57 pm
neverfail wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:29 pm
cassowary wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:05 am
neverfail wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:10 am

No Cass, the matter is absurd. The Americans have no intention of ever coming back - and that's that!
I agree that as of now, the US has no intention of ever going back. But I was arguing that the US not leave completely. Instead it should have retained a small military presence in the easily defended Panjshir valley .
What for? In what way is Afghanistan of any geostrategic value to the United States?
Exactly.
What is the strategic value of the EU to the United States? If the US has no strategic interest in Europe other than Air Strip One then Afghanistan is of no geo-strategic value to the US at all. Seems like the argument could be made for or against that strategic value. I will leave it for someone else to make it.
The US objective in Europe is to prevent Europe developing a partnership with Russia. American occupation forces in Europe are to make sure that Europe remains under America's thumb. That's why NATO exists.
NATO exists so Europe doesn't have to pay for its own defense against Russia.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 5709
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Why America failed in Afghanistan

Post by Sertorio » Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:03 am

Doc wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 5:57 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:59 am
Doc wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:11 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:57 pm
neverfail wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:29 pm
cassowary wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:05 am


I agree that as of now, the US has no intention of ever going back. But I was arguing that the US not leave completely. Instead it should have retained a small military presence in the easily defended Panjshir valley .
What for? In what way is Afghanistan of any geostrategic value to the United States?
Exactly.
What is the strategic value of the EU to the United States? If the US has no strategic interest in Europe other than Air Strip One then Afghanistan is of no geo-strategic value to the US at all. Seems like the argument could be made for or against that strategic value. I will leave it for someone else to make it.
The US objective in Europe is to prevent Europe developing a partnership with Russia. American occupation forces in Europe are to make sure that Europe remains under America's thumb. That's why NATO exists.
NATO exists so Europe doesn't have to pay for its own defense against Russia.
We do not need defending ourselves against Russia. The US thinks it does, and thus it imposes NATO on us.

User avatar
SteveFoerster
Posts: 2356
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:17 pm
Location: Probably DCA, YYJ, or DOM
Contact:

Re: Why America failed in Afghanistan

Post by SteveFoerster » Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:34 am

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:03 am
We do not need defending ourselves against Russia. The US thinks it does, and thus it imposes NATO on us.
You bang on endlessly about how weak the U.S. is economically and militarily, yet you posit that Europe, a continent with vast wealth and two nuclear powers to boot, cannot rid themselves of its influence. It must be convenient to be so unburdened by any sense of consistency! :lol:
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: https://newworld.ac

User avatar
Doc
Posts: 6118
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:09 pm
Location: Cradle To Grave

Re: Why America failed in Afghanistan

Post by Doc » Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:40 am

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:59 am
Doc wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 9:11 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 4:57 pm
neverfail wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 3:29 pm
cassowary wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 6:05 am
neverfail wrote:
Wed Oct 06, 2021 5:10 am

No Cass, the matter is absurd. The Americans have no intention of ever coming back - and that's that!
I agree that as of now, the US has no intention of ever going back. But I was arguing that the US not leave completely. Instead it should have retained a small military presence in the easily defended Panjshir valley .
What for? In what way is Afghanistan of any geostrategic value to the United States?
Exactly.
What is the strategic value of the EU to the United States? If the US has no strategic interest in Europe other than Air Strip One then Afghanistan is of no geo-strategic value to the US at all. Seems like the argument could be made for or against that strategic value. I will leave it for someone else to make it.
The US objective in Europe is to prevent Europe developing a partnership with Russia. American occupation forces in Europe are to make sure that Europe remains under America's thumb. That's why NATO exists.
The original objective was to keep the soviet Union from over running a destroyed in WWII Europe Once the Soviet Union collapsed US troops should have been moved out out of Europe.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 5709
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Why America failed in Afghanistan

Post by Sertorio » Thu Oct 07, 2021 9:21 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:34 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:03 am
We do not need defending ourselves against Russia. The US thinks it does, and thus it imposes NATO on us.
You bang on endlessly about how weak the U.S. is economically and militarily, yet you posit that Europe, a continent with vast wealth and two nuclear powers to boot, cannot rid themselves of its influence. It must be convenient to be so unburdened by any sense of consistency! :lol:
We could, and we will. But governments tend to enjoy the advantages of vassaldom and peoples have been busy with what seemed to them more pressing issues. But soon those peoples will realize that the absence of freedom is increasingly harmful to their interests. As was shown by the US interference in Nord Stream 2 and by our military being unnecessarily exposed to harm in Afghanistan. And then we will choose governments which will put our interests ahead of the US interests.

neverfail
Posts: 7418
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am
Location: Singapore

Re: Why America failed in Afghanistan

Post by neverfail » Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:09 pm

Doc wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:40 am
The original objective was to keep the soviet Union from over running a destroyed in WWII Europe Once the Soviet Union collapsed US troops should have been moved out out of Europe.
In your opinion Doc why were they not?

User avatar
Doc
Posts: 6118
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:09 pm
Location: Cradle To Grave

Re: Why America failed in Afghanistan

Post by Doc » Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:43 pm

neverfail wrote:
Doc wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:40 am
The original objective was to keep the soviet Union from over running a destroyed in WWII Europe Once the Soviet Union collapsed US troops should have been moved out out of Europe.
In your opinion Doc why were they not?
Interesting question. I think there were a group of people that did not want to lose power as a group. The US middle class has been paying taxes to defend Europe since 1945. I don"t hear many thanks yous for that. More like smug superiority of a con man that has taken a mark for all they are worth
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 5709
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Why America failed in Afghanistan

Post by Sertorio » Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:53 am

Doc wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:43 pm
neverfail wrote:
Doc wrote:
Thu Oct 07, 2021 7:40 am
The original objective was to keep the soviet Union from over running a destroyed in WWII Europe Once the Soviet Union collapsed US troops should have been moved out out of Europe.
In your opinion Doc why were they not?
Interesting question. I think there were a group of people that did not want to lose power as a group. The US middle class has been paying taxes to defend Europe since 1945. I don"t hear many thanks yous for that. More like smug superiority of a con man that has taken a mark for all they are worth
The US stayed in Europe after 1989, as I said, exclusively to prevent Europe developing a partnership with Russia. A partnership that makes all sense. And because it makes sense it will happen, no matter how imperial the US tries to be. The days of American supremacy are over and Europe will soon go its own way.

User avatar
SteveFoerster
Posts: 2356
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:17 pm
Location: Probably DCA, YYJ, or DOM
Contact:

Re: Why America failed in Afghanistan

Post by SteveFoerster » Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:38 am

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:53 am
The US stayed in Europe after 1989, as I said, exclusively to prevent Europe developing a partnership with Russia. A partnership that makes all sense. And because it makes sense it will happen, no matter how imperial the US tries to be. The days of American supremacy are over and Europe will soon go its own way.
The only "partnership" with Russia that Europe faces is at the barrel of a Russian gun. I truly hope that someday Russia becomes genuinely democratic and open and that changes. Until then, Europeans are right to remain vigilant, and if American taxpayers will foot the bill for them, so much the better for them and worse for us.
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: https://newworld.ac

User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 5709
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Why America failed in Afghanistan

Post by Sertorio » Fri Oct 08, 2021 7:27 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 5:38 am
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:53 am
The US stayed in Europe after 1989, as I said, exclusively to prevent Europe developing a partnership with Russia. A partnership that makes all sense. And because it makes sense it will happen, no matter how imperial the US tries to be. The days of American supremacy are over and Europe will soon go its own way.
The only "partnership" with Russia that Europe faces is at the barrel of a Russian gun. I truly hope that someday Russia becomes genuinely democratic and open and that changes. Until then, Europeans are right to remain vigilant, and if American taxpayers will foot the bill for them, so much the better for them and worse for us.
We absolutely do not feel threatened by Russia. Putin may be authoritarian, but that's the Russians' problem, not ours. In relations between Russia and Europe we have been a lot less trustworthy than the Russians.

Post Reply