Australia, Allende and the CIA

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Sertorio
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Re: Australia, Allende and the CIA

Post by Sertorio » Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:58 am

neverfail wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:22 pm

Sertorio (just in case you bury your head in the sand): my country would be at risk re. China even if we were NOT an American ally. They have this "thing" up there about their "century of humuliation" at the hands of "foreign barbarians" and the current rulers give the impression 9though they won't admit it openly) of thirsting for vengeance.
The "century of humiliation" is just a figure of rhetoric for the Chinese. There is no way a nation with such a strong feeling of superiority would ever feel humiliated. Mistreated or militarily defeated, maybe. Humiliated, never. Because humiliation would be a sign of inferiority, which the Chinese would never accept. But it's convenient to say it once in a while, in order to justify whatever China feels like doing. The idea is:

"If we Chinese could be humiliated in the way you Europeans often are, then we would be seeking, just like you, revenge on whoever humiliated us. As we cannot be humiliated - certainly not by the likes of you - we don't need to take revenge. We just decide to impose our will on you, and too bad if you don't like it."

The "humiliation" charade is only meant to make you "understand" the way we act and not be too upset about it... :D

neverfail
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Location: Singapore

Re: Australia, Allende and the CIA

Post by neverfail » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:28 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:58 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:22 pm

Sertorio (just in case you bury your head in the sand): my country would be at risk re. China even if we were NOT an American ally. They have this "thing" up there about their "century of humuliation" at the hands of "foreign barbarians" and the current rulers give the impression 9though they won't admit it openly) of thirsting for vengeance.
The "century of humiliation" is just a figure of rhetoric for the Chinese. There is no way a nation with such a strong feeling of superiority would ever feel humiliated. Mistreated or militarily defeated, maybe. Humiliated, never. Because humiliation would be a sign of inferiority, which the Chinese would never accept. But it's convenient to say it once in a while, in order to justify whatever China feels like doing. The idea is:

"If we Chinese could be humiliated in the way you Europeans often are, then we would be seeking, just like you, revenge on whoever humiliated us. As we cannot be humiliated - certainly not by the likes of you - we don't need to take revenge. We just decide to impose our will on you, and too bad if you don't like it."

The "humiliation" charade is only meant to make you "understand" the way we act and not be too upset about it... :D
No, the regime up there is in earnest about it.

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Sertorio
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Re: Australia, Allende and the CIA

Post by Sertorio » Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:50 pm

neverfail wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:28 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:58 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:22 pm

Sertorio (just in case you bury your head in the sand): my country would be at risk re. China even if we were NOT an American ally. They have this "thing" up there about their "century of humuliation" at the hands of "foreign barbarians" and the current rulers give the impression 9though they won't admit it openly) of thirsting for vengeance.
The "century of humiliation" is just a figure of rhetoric for the Chinese. There is no way a nation with such a strong feeling of superiority would ever feel humiliated. Mistreated or militarily defeated, maybe. Humiliated, never. Because humiliation would be a sign of inferiority, which the Chinese would never accept. But it's convenient to say it once in a while, in order to justify whatever China feels like doing. The idea is:

"If we Chinese could be humiliated in the way you Europeans often are, then we would be seeking, just like you, revenge on whoever humiliated us. As we cannot be humiliated - certainly not by the likes of you - we don't need to take revenge. We just decide to impose our will on you, and too bad if you don't like it."

The "humiliation" charade is only meant to make you "understand" the way we act and not be too upset about it... :D
No, the regime up there is in earnest about it.
I think I understand the Chinese a lot better than you...

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Australia, Allende and the CIA

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:05 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:50 pm
neverfail wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:28 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:58 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:22 pm

Sertorio (just in case you bury your head in the sand): my country would be at risk re. China even if we were NOT an American ally. They have this "thing" up there about their "century of humuliation" at the hands of "foreign barbarians" and the current rulers give the impression 9though they won't admit it openly) of thirsting for vengeance.
The "century of humiliation" is just a figure of rhetoric for the Chinese. There is no way a nation with such a strong feeling of superiority would ever feel humiliated. Mistreated or militarily defeated, maybe. Humiliated, never. Because humiliation would be a sign of inferiority, which the Chinese would never accept. But it's convenient to say it once in a while, in order to justify whatever China feels like doing. The idea is:

"If we Chinese could be humiliated in the way you Europeans often are, then we would be seeking, just like you, revenge on whoever humiliated us. As we cannot be humiliated - certainly not by the likes of you - we don't need to take revenge. We just decide to impose our will on you, and too bad if you don't like it."

The "humiliation" charade is only meant to make you "understand" the way we act and not be too upset about it... :D
No, the regime up there is in earnest about it.
I think I understand the Chinese a lot better than you...
Why? Have you actually just been part of the 50 Cent Army all this time? It would explain a lot....
Writer, technologist, educator, gadfly.
President of New World University: https://newworld.ac

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cassowary
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Re: Australia, Allende and the CIA

Post by cassowary » Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:21 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:58 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:22 pm

Sertorio (just in case you bury your head in the sand): my country would be at risk re. China even if we were NOT an American ally. They have this "thing" up there about their "century of humuliation" at the hands of "foreign barbarians" and the current rulers give the impression 9though they won't admit it openly) of thirsting for vengeance.
The "century of humiliation" is just a figure of rhetoric for the Chinese. There is no way a nation with such a strong feeling of superiority would ever feel humiliated. Mistreated or militarily defeated, maybe. Humiliated, never. Because humiliation would be a sign of inferiority, which the Chinese would never accept. But it's convenient to say it once in a while, in order to justify whatever China feels like doing. The idea is:

"If we Chinese could be humiliated in the way you Europeans often are, then we would be seeking, just like you, revenge on whoever humiliated us. As we cannot be humiliated - certainly not by the likes of you - we don't need to take revenge. We just decide to impose our will on you, and too bad if you don't like it."

The "humiliation" charade is only meant to make you "understand" the way we act and not be too upset about it... :D
Actually, I agree with Sertorio. I certainly don't feel any humiliation about what happened 150 years ago with the Opium War. I am proud of Singapore's achievements and have no need to look for excuses for failure. In the case of China, the CCP needs to use nationalism to unite the people and make them forget about the corruption of the CCP. So they keep reminding the Chinese of the past humiliation.
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Location: Singapore

Re: China: correcting the historical record.

Post by neverfail » Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:14 pm

cassowary wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:21 pm
Actually, I agree with Sertorio. I certainly don't feel any humiliation about what happened 150 years ago with the Opium War. I am proud of Singapore's achievements and have no need to look for excuses for failure. In the case of China, the CCP needs to use nationalism to unite the people and make them forget about the corruption of the CCP. So they keep reminding the Chinese of the past humiliation.
Okay Cassowary, unusual for you to be so nice towards the regime up there and you have pulled the rug right from under my feet.

It is by contention that China underwent three centuries of humuliation which began in 1644, the year the Manchu invaded and not one century beginning in 1842, the year the first Opium War ended with the first "unequal" treaty with Britain as conventional wisdom holds.

It was humuliation because with the Manchu, Asiatic foreignors in charge, it became unfashoinable, rather "downmarket", to be of Han ethnicity. It also stands to reason that China's laggardly resistance/ response to Western incursions had a lot to do with that Manchu-Han relationship. The Manchu were reluctant to mobilise the mass of Han against the white foreigners lest it strengthen the morale and willpower of the Han to resist them.

Top of the Manchu agenda would have been always keeping the Han majority in line: way ahead of the need to oppose the Western imperialists.

The Western intruders would have been well aware of this tension between rulers and ruled and beyond a shadow of doubt exploited it to reap gigantic commercial and strategic rewards. Indeed, that was the whole point of threatening and humuliating the Qing rulers from time to time.

Yet none of this is mentioned by the CCP in the distorted propaganda on the theme of "China's humuliation". Instead they do not mention that China was then ruled by foreignors. Instead by their silence lend the misleading impression that only those white foreignors were the villians.

Do I resent that selective stigmatisation of my race? You bet I do!

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cassowary
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Re: China: correcting the historical record.

Post by cassowary » Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:08 am

neverfail wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 11:14 pm
cassowary wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 9:21 pm
Actually, I agree with Sertorio. I certainly don't feel any humiliation about what happened 150 years ago with the Opium War. I am proud of Singapore's achievements and have no need to look for excuses for failure. In the case of China, the CCP needs to use nationalism to unite the people and make them forget about the corruption of the CCP. So they keep reminding the Chinese of the past humiliation.
Okay Cassowary, unusual for you to be so nice towards the regime up there and you have pulled the rug right from under my feet.

It is by contention that China underwent three centuries of humuliation which began in 1644, the year the Manchu invaded and not one century beginning in 1842, the year the first Opium War ended with the first "unequal" treaty with Britain as conventional wisdom holds.

It was humuliation because with the Manchu, Asiatic foreignors in charge, it became unfashoinable, rather "downmarket", to be of Han ethnicity. It also stands to reason that China's laggardly resistance/ response to Western incursions had a lot to do with that Manchu-Han relationship. The Manchu were reluctant to mobilise the mass of Han against the white foreigners lest it strengthen the morale and willpower of the Han to resist them.

Top of the Manchu agenda would have been always keeping the Han majority in line: way ahead of the need to oppose the Western imperialists.

The Western intruders would have been well aware of this tension between rulers and ruled and beyond a shadow of doubt exploited it to reap gigantic commercial and strategic rewards. Indeed, that was the whole point of threatening and humuliating the Qing rulers from time to time.

Yet none of this is mentioned by the CCP in the distorted propaganda on the theme of "China's humuliation". Instead they do not mention that China was then ruled by foreignors. Instead by their silence lend the misleading impression that only those white foreignors were the villians.

Do I resent that selective stigmatisation of my race? You bet I do!
I was not aware I was going easy of the CCP. Nor was it my intention. I hate the CCP. But you are right. Under current propaganda line, the Manchus are not regarded as foreigners. The CCP has redefined what it means to be Chinese. Before, being Chinese meant Han Chinese. But now, it is a nationality of people living in China. This includes all the minorities. Its the same concept of being American. There are white Americans, black Americans and Asian Americans but all are Americans.
The Imp :D

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Sertorio
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Re: Australia, Allende and the CIA

Post by Sertorio » Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:34 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 5:05 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:50 pm
neverfail wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:28 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 7:58 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:22 pm

Sertorio (just in case you bury your head in the sand): my country would be at risk re. China even if we were NOT an American ally. They have this "thing" up there about their "century of humuliation" at the hands of "foreign barbarians" and the current rulers give the impression 9though they won't admit it openly) of thirsting for vengeance.
The "century of humiliation" is just a figure of rhetoric for the Chinese. There is no way a nation with such a strong feeling of superiority would ever feel humiliated. Mistreated or militarily defeated, maybe. Humiliated, never. Because humiliation would be a sign of inferiority, which the Chinese would never accept. But it's convenient to say it once in a while, in order to justify whatever China feels like doing. The idea is:

"If we Chinese could be humiliated in the way you Europeans often are, then we would be seeking, just like you, revenge on whoever humiliated us. As we cannot be humiliated - certainly not by the likes of you - we don't need to take revenge. We just decide to impose our will on you, and too bad if you don't like it."

The "humiliation" charade is only meant to make you "understand" the way we act and not be too upset about it... :D
No, the regime up there is in earnest about it.
I think I understand the Chinese a lot better than you...
Why? Have you actually just been part of the 50 Cent Army all this time? It would explain a lot....
We have had peaceful contacts with China for several centuries. From a more personal point of view, I studied Mandarin for four years in the Macao mission in Lisbon. It doesn't make me an expert, but I think I got to understand the Chinese pretty well...

neverfail
Posts: 7291
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Location: Singapore

Re: Australia, Allende and the CIA

Post by neverfail » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:04 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:34 am
We have had peaceful contacts with China for several centuries. From a more personal point of view, I studied Mandarin for four years in the Macao mission in Lisbon. It doesn't make me an expert, but I think I got to understand the Chinese pretty well...
Macao was leased (not ceded) to Portugal in 1557 by an Emperor belonging to the Ming (not Qing) dynasty at a time when the ruling dynasty was reasonably strong. That makes a difference.

However the territory was ceded ceded to Portuguise soverignty in 1887; in the wake of the opium wars by which time relatively obscure powers including Denmark and Peru were able to walk up to the Manchu rulers in Beijing, demand whatever concessions they wanted and ususlly get them. So please drop the nationalistic smugness Sertorio. Portugal rode in on Britain's coattails and added to China's humuliation.

neverfail
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Location: Singapore

Re: China: never allow truth to get in the way of self-serving propaganda.

Post by neverfail » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:12 pm

cassowary wrote:
Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:08 am
I was not aware I was going easy of the CCP. Nor was it my intention. I hate the CCP. But you are right. Under current propaganda line, the Manchus are not regarded as foreigners. The CCP has redefined what it means to be Chinese. Before, being Chinese meant Han Chinese. But now, it is a nationality of people living in China. This includes all the minorities. Its the same concept of being American. There are white Americans, black Americans and Asian Americans but all are Americans.
Well, tough luck for the CCP and the men who lead it. The historical fact was that it was the Manchu, a partially Sinocised foreign peiople whose home was located north of the Great Wall; who brought China into THEIR empire by invasion, conquest and subjugation: not vice-versa. Yet according to the lie being peddled by the CCP; we are supposed to believe that the Manchu were defacto Chinese and as such as much victims of British and other Western predations as the Han.

In another distortion of historical truth we are also supposed to believe that traditionally Manchu lands which had no history of being part of any preceeding Chinese empire, including Manchuria and the present day Russian Far East were traditionally "Chinese" landa when in fact it was the Manchu who brought these into the Chinese pale by moving their capital to Beijing. (But of course China's present rulers keep silent about that as they don't want to upset their Russian allies.)

What a hoax!

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