Sertorio,Sertorio wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:18 amCass, sooner or later you will a victim of the policies you defend, and then we will see what your reaction will be...cassowary wrote: ↑Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:12 amThe Cubans and Soviets were in cahoots with Allende and secretly fomenting Revolution. So we need the CIA and apparently Aussie intelligence to level the playing field.neverfail wrote: ↑Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:56 pmAllende and cohorts aroused enough emnity against itself to ensure that pressures within the country would have brought it to a premature and ignoble end. On that basis I don't see American machanations as having been necessary to rid Chile of Allende. Just let nature take it course.
About the one redeeming feature of the coup was that it pespite the subsequent killings, incarceration and torture of many thousands of known and suspected Allende supporters it likely spared Chine something far worse: a full blown civil war.
Well, let me tell you where I am coming from and you tell me where you are coming from.
We are the Overseas Chinese. In the 1950s, China went through the Great Leap Forward. Our relatives sent out letters of appeal because of the mass starvation caused by Communsm. In Malaya, CCP backed Communist guerrilas were killing innocent people to impose an order that caused the starvation in China.
The British and their Commonwealth allies sent troops to protect us from a Communist takeover. The Malayan Emergency lasted 12 years. Though officially over by 1960s, it was not really over. The Communists remained a threat. They organised riots (like what Marxist infiltrated BLM is doing in the US) and social unrest.
In neighboring Malaysia, Chin Peng was still active despite the so called end of the Emergency. In neighboring Indonesia, the Communists attempted to takeover the country with the backing of its President, Soekarno. Luckily, Suharto with CIA help, lauched a coup in 1965.
In that same year, the US sent troops to South Vietnam. All this saved us from Communism. We saw with dismay Communist elements in the US protesting against the US involvement in Vietnam. This led to US withdrawal. Indo-China fell in 1975, 10 years later after the US built up its military presence in South Vietnam.
We saw the millions killed in the Killing Fields of Cambodia. We saw wave after wave of boat people washed up on the shores on S E Asia, seeking to flee Communism. We saw the misery and death caused by Socialism/Communism. So we concluded that anyone supporting this ideology must be truly evil.
At the same time, we view the US as a force for good. Not only did they champion democracy but they also championed capitalism. With free markets, all of the economies in East Asia prospered. As LKY said, the US may have failed to save Indo China. But the 10 year delay in the Fall of Saigon gave us time to put our houses in order. SE Asia in 1975 was more stable and had built up stronger institutions. The increased prosperity took away the attraction of Communism.
Singapore, HK, Taiwan and South Korea prospered under the US system of free markets. These were called the Asian Tigers. The US kept its large market open to help us export and prosper. Soon others followed. Following the US example on democracy was a tougher sell.
Many of us in Singapore felt protected in that dangerous communists were jailed without trial. Intimidation meant that few would dare to give testimony in a court of law. We knew it was undemocratic to do so. But we tolerated it in exchange for prosperity, which capitalism delivered.
Eventually, our societies (I am referring to Singapore, Taiwan and South Korea) was stable enough for democracy to take root. We saw a parallel in Chile. Pinochet brought stability and prosperity first with his admittedly dictatorial ways. Then he restored democracy. It was a replay of the Indonesian coup. Allende, like Soekarno, teamed up with the Communists to install a Communist dictatorship. Pinochet, like Suharto and also with CIA backing, lauched a coup. Prosperity came with capitalism. Eventually, democracy came.
So what is your story? Why are you so sure that one day I will be a victim of this system that brought us prosperity and eventually democracy? Why should I trust the Communist system that delivered and still continue to deliver so much human misery? Isn't 100 million dead enough to convince you that you are wrong? Isn't the presence of impoverished dictatorships like in Cuba and North Korea enough to convince you?
Could it be that you like to see human suffering?