Australia, Allende and the CIA

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cassowary
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Re: Australia, Allende and the CIA

Post by cassowary » Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:55 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:18 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 5:12 am
neverfail wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 5:56 pm
cassowary wrote:
Sat Sep 11, 2021 4:31 pm

Good. They saved Chile from becoming another Cuba. Pinochet brought prosperity and later restored Democracy to Chile. And what about Cuba? Still an impoverished dictatorship.
Allende and cohorts aroused enough emnity against itself to ensure that pressures within the country would have brought it to a premature and ignoble end. On that basis I don't see American machanations as having been necessary to rid Chile of Allende. Just let nature take it course.

About the one redeeming feature of the coup was that it pespite the subsequent killings, incarceration and torture of many thousands of known and suspected Allende supporters it likely spared Chine something far worse: a full blown civil war.
The Cubans and Soviets were in cahoots with Allende and secretly fomenting Revolution. So we need the CIA and apparently Aussie intelligence to level the playing field.
Cass, sooner or later you will a victim of the policies you defend, and then we will see what your reaction will be...
Sertorio,

Well, let me tell you where I am coming from and you tell me where you are coming from.

We are the Overseas Chinese. In the 1950s, China went through the Great Leap Forward. Our relatives sent out letters of appeal because of the mass starvation caused by Communsm. In Malaya, CCP backed Communist guerrilas were killing innocent people to impose an order that caused the starvation in China.

The British and their Commonwealth allies sent troops to protect us from a Communist takeover. The Malayan Emergency lasted 12 years. Though officially over by 1960s, it was not really over. The Communists remained a threat. They organised riots (like what Marxist infiltrated BLM is doing in the US) and social unrest.

In neighboring Malaysia, Chin Peng was still active despite the so called end of the Emergency. In neighboring Indonesia, the Communists attempted to takeover the country with the backing of its President, Soekarno. Luckily, Suharto with CIA help, lauched a coup in 1965.

In that same year, the US sent troops to South Vietnam. All this saved us from Communism. We saw with dismay Communist elements in the US protesting against the US involvement in Vietnam. This led to US withdrawal. Indo-China fell in 1975, 10 years later after the US built up its military presence in South Vietnam.

We saw the millions killed in the Killing Fields of Cambodia. We saw wave after wave of boat people washed up on the shores on S E Asia, seeking to flee Communism. We saw the misery and death caused by Socialism/Communism. So we concluded that anyone supporting this ideology must be truly evil.

At the same time, we view the US as a force for good. Not only did they champion democracy but they also championed capitalism. With free markets, all of the economies in East Asia prospered. As LKY said, the US may have failed to save Indo China. But the 10 year delay in the Fall of Saigon gave us time to put our houses in order. SE Asia in 1975 was more stable and had built up stronger institutions. The increased prosperity took away the attraction of Communism.

Singapore, HK, Taiwan and South Korea prospered under the US system of free markets. These were called the Asian Tigers. The US kept its large market open to help us export and prosper. Soon others followed. Following the US example on democracy was a tougher sell.

Many of us in Singapore felt protected in that dangerous communists were jailed without trial. Intimidation meant that few would dare to give testimony in a court of law. We knew it was undemocratic to do so. But we tolerated it in exchange for prosperity, which capitalism delivered.

Eventually, our societies (I am referring to Singapore, Taiwan and South Korea) was stable enough for democracy to take root. We saw a parallel in Chile. Pinochet brought stability and prosperity first with his admittedly dictatorial ways. Then he restored democracy. It was a replay of the Indonesian coup. Allende, like Soekarno, teamed up with the Communists to install a Communist dictatorship. Pinochet, like Suharto and also with CIA backing, lauched a coup. Prosperity came with capitalism. Eventually, democracy came.

So what is your story? Why are you so sure that one day I will be a victim of this system that brought us prosperity and eventually democracy? Why should I trust the Communist system that delivered and still continue to deliver so much human misery? Isn't 100 million dead enough to convince you that you are wrong? Isn't the presence of impoverished dictatorships like in Cuba and North Korea enough to convince you?

Could it be that you like to see human suffering?
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: Australia, Allende and the CIA

Post by neverfail » Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:22 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 4:06 am
I'm sure you are sincere in your distress in respect of the Chilean venture,
You are right about my 'distress'. Chile is no threat to Australia and we have always enjoyed ostensively friendly relations with this distant country. If the US wanted to set the government there in its sights as part of its global jihad against "Communism then it had no business calling on us to do its dirty work for it and he had no business in complying.
..... but you keep supporting the US in its conflict with China and thus help putting your country at risk.
Sertorio (just in case you bury your head in the sand): my country would be at risk re. China even if we were NOT an American ally. They have this "thing" up there about their "century of humuliation" at the hands of "foreign barbarians" and the current rulers give the impression 9though they won't admit it openly) of thirsting for vengeance.
Of course China will always be a dangerous neighbour, but China belongs in your part of the world, and the US does not.
If the US does not belong here in this part of the world then neither do we. Do not lose sight of the fact that we (broadly) belong to the same civilisation.
Good relations with China and lively trade with them will contribute to Australia's prosperity at very little risk. China can mean to Australia much more than the US can ever do. Isn't it time for Australia to become truly independent and master of its destiny? Must you be forever tied to a collapsing empire?...
That observation is absolutely right Sertorio. Nobody here is in any doubt about the importance of China to our country. Its commercial importance to Australia already eclipses that of the United States several times over and with the passage of time the gap will likely widen. Not merely because the PRC economy has grown faster than the US for many years but because I judge it to be more of a trading nation than the USA.

The country itself is admirable: it is the REGIME that sucks. That is why we like to keep American power in this area to act as a curb on China's ambitions.

"Truly independent"? :?: Independence means nothing if you live unprotected in a world full of predators. Which is why Portugal belongs to both NATO and the EU.

neverfail
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Re: Australia, Allende and the CIA

Post by neverfail » Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:45 pm

cassowary wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:55 pm


Sertorio,

Well, let me tell you where I am coming from and you tell me where you are coming from.

We are the Overseas Chinese. In the 1950s, China went through the Great Leap Forward. Our relatives sent out letters of appeal because of the mass starvation caused by Communsm. In Malaya, CCP backed Communist guerrilas were killing innocent people to impose an order that caused the starvation in China.

The British and their Commonwealth allies sent troops to protect us from a Communist takeover. The Malayan Emergency lasted 12 years. Though officially over by 1960s, it was not really over. The Communists remained a threat. They organised riots (like what Marxist infiltrated BLM is doing in the US) and social unrest.

In neighboring Malaysia, Chin Peng was still active despite the so called end of the Emergency. In neighboring Indonesia, the Communists attempted to takeover the country with the backing of its President, Soekarno. Luckily, Suharto with CIA help, lauched a coup in 1965.

In that same year, the US sent troops to South Vietnam. All this saved us from Communism. We saw with dismay Communist elements in the US protesting against the US involvement in Vietnam. This led to US withdrawal. Indo-China fell in 1975, 10 years later after the US built up its military presence in South Vietnam.

We saw the millions killed in the Killing Fields of Cambodia. We saw wave after wave of boat people washed up on the shores on S E Asia, seeking to flee Communism. We saw the misery and death caused by Socialism/Communism. So we concluded that anyone supporting this ideology must be truly evil.

At the same time, we view the US as a force for good. Not only did they champion democracy but they also championed capitalism. With free markets, all of the economies in East Asia prospered. As LKY said, the US may have failed to save Indo China. But the 10 year delay in the Fall of Saigon gave us time to put our houses in order. SE Asia in 1975 was more stable and had built up stronger institutions. The increased prosperity took away the attraction of Communism.

Singapore, HK, Taiwan and South Korea prospered under the US system of free markets. These were called the Asian Tigers. The US kept its large market open to help us export and prosper. Soon others followed. Following the US example on democracy was a tougher sell.

Many of us in Singapore felt protected in that dangerous communists were jailed without trial. Intimidation meant that few would dare to give testimony in a court of law. We knew it was undemocratic to do so. But we tolerated it in exchange for prosperity, which capitalism delivered.

Eventually, our societies (I am referring to Singapore, Taiwan and South Korea) was stable enough for democracy to take root. We saw a parallel in Chile. Pinochet brought stability and prosperity first with his admittedly dictatorial ways. Then he restored democracy. It was a replay of the Indonesian coup. Allende, like Soekarno, teamed up with the Communists to install a Communist dictatorship. Pinochet, like Suharto and also with CIA backing, lauched a coup. Prosperity came with capitalism. Eventually, democracy came.

So what is your story? Why are you so sure that one day I will be a victim of this system that brought us prosperity and eventually democracy? Why should I trust the Communist system that delivered and still continue to deliver so much human misery? Isn't 100 million dead enough to convince you that you are wrong? Isn't the presence of impoverished dictatorships like in Cuba and North Korea enough to convince you?

Could it be that you like to see human suffering?
Cassowary. We know where you are coming from form you have been over this ground with us on several occasions before.

What you do not seem to be aware of is that this is all now water under the bridge. History has by now turned another page and other issues take precedence.

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cassowary
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Re: Australia, Allende and the CIA

Post by cassowary » Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:51 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 10:45 pm
cassowary wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 6:55 pm


Sertorio,

Well, let me tell you where I am coming from and you tell me where you are coming from.

We are the Overseas Chinese. In the 1950s, China went through the Great Leap Forward. Our relatives sent out letters of appeal because of the mass starvation caused by Communsm. In Malaya, CCP backed Communist guerrilas were killing innocent people to impose an order that caused the starvation in China.

The British and their Commonwealth allies sent troops to protect us from a Communist takeover. The Malayan Emergency lasted 12 years. Though officially over by 1960s, it was not really over. The Communists remained a threat. They organised riots (like what Marxist infiltrated BLM is doing in the US) and social unrest.

In neighboring Malaysia, Chin Peng was still active despite the so called end of the Emergency. In neighboring Indonesia, the Communists attempted to takeover the country with the backing of its President, Soekarno. Luckily, Suharto with CIA help, lauched a coup in 1965.

In that same year, the US sent troops to South Vietnam. All this saved us from Communism. We saw with dismay Communist elements in the US protesting against the US involvement in Vietnam. This led to US withdrawal. Indo-China fell in 1975, 10 years later after the US built up its military presence in South Vietnam.

We saw the millions killed in the Killing Fields of Cambodia. We saw wave after wave of boat people washed up on the shores on S E Asia, seeking to flee Communism. We saw the misery and death caused by Socialism/Communism. So we concluded that anyone supporting this ideology must be truly evil.

At the same time, we view the US as a force for good. Not only did they champion democracy but they also championed capitalism. With free markets, all of the economies in East Asia prospered. As LKY said, the US may have failed to save Indo China. But the 10 year delay in the Fall of Saigon gave us time to put our houses in order. SE Asia in 1975 was more stable and had built up stronger institutions. The increased prosperity took away the attraction of Communism.

Singapore, HK, Taiwan and South Korea prospered under the US system of free markets. These were called the Asian Tigers. The US kept its large market open to help us export and prosper. Soon others followed. Following the US example on democracy was a tougher sell.

Many of us in Singapore felt protected in that dangerous communists were jailed without trial. Intimidation meant that few would dare to give testimony in a court of law. We knew it was undemocratic to do so. But we tolerated it in exchange for prosperity, which capitalism delivered.

Eventually, our societies (I am referring to Singapore, Taiwan and South Korea) was stable enough for democracy to take root. We saw a parallel in Chile. Pinochet brought stability and prosperity first with his admittedly dictatorial ways. Then he restored democracy. It was a replay of the Indonesian coup. Allende, like Soekarno, teamed up with the Communists to install a Communist dictatorship. Pinochet, like Suharto and also with CIA backing, lauched a coup. Prosperity came with capitalism. Eventually, democracy came.

So what is your story? Why are you so sure that one day I will be a victim of this system that brought us prosperity and eventually democracy? Why should I trust the Communist system that delivered and still continue to deliver so much human misery? Isn't 100 million dead enough to convince you that you are wrong? Isn't the presence of impoverished dictatorships like in Cuba and North Korea enough to convince you?

Could it be that you like to see human suffering?
Cassowary. We know where you are coming from form you have been over this ground with us on several occasions before.

What you do not seem to be aware of is that this is all now water under the bridge. History has by now turned another page and other issues take precedence.
Yes, I believe you do know where I am coming from. But Sertorio apparently does not, judging form what he said. So I was explaining to him and also inviting him to explain where his world view came from.
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: Australia, Allende and the CIA

Post by neverfail » Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:32 am

cassowary wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:51 pm
Yes, I believe you do know where I am coming from. But Sertorio apparently does not, judging form what he said. So I was explaining to him and also inviting him to explain where his world view came from.
That is a very valid point Cassowary. Sertorio has kept his cards very close to his chest - railing against the alleged misdeads of the United States and the folly of European political leaders for embracing this power as an ally but revealing nothing of how his pecular worldview came about.

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Sertorio
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Re: Australia, Allende and the CIA

Post by Sertorio » Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:06 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:32 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Sep 12, 2021 11:51 pm
Yes, I believe you do know where I am coming from. But Sertorio apparently does not, judging form what he said. So I was explaining to him and also inviting him to explain where his world view came from.
That is a very valid point Cassowary. Sertorio has kept his cards very close to his chest - railing against the alleged misdeads of the United States and the folly of European political leaders for embracing this power as an ally but revealing nothing of how his pecular worldview came about.
My peculiar worldview?... :shock:

I live in Europe, a region with a 2,500 year old civilization, and my country was active for hundreds of years in Asia, Africa and South America. Since 400 BC Greek and Roman philosophers have thought about the world and the human mind in a way which was unequaled anywhere else in the world. They created the basis for the modern world and gave rise to science and technology. We invented democracy and suggested a world without the need for gods or spirits. Along the way we mistreated lots of people but were the first to realize that we had to put a stop to it. We believe we may greatly contribute to a better and more humane world, but we need to recover our freedom of movement to do it. As a Portuguese I believe that our contacts over the centuries with so many different peoples all over the world have taught us to be tolerant and that there are no superior and inferior peoples or ethnic groups. We tend to respect other peoples and to keep a dialogue with them even when we disagree with what they do. Human rights and peace are the goals we believe we share with most Europeans. Although some of us may have a peculiar way of showing it... :?

neverfail
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Re: Australia, Allende and the CIA

Post by neverfail » Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:38 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:06 am

I live in Europe, a region with a 2,500 year old civilization, and my country was active for hundreds of years in Asia, Africa and South America. Since 400 BC Greek and Roman philosophers have thought about the world and the human mind in a way which was unequaled anywhere else in the world. They created the basis for the modern world and gave rise to science and technology. We invented democracy and suggested a world without the need for gods or spirits. Along the way we mistreated lots of people but were the first to realize that we had to put a stop to it. We believe we may greatly contribute to a better and more humane world, but we need to recover our freedom of movement to do it. As a Portuguese I believe that our contacts over the centuries with so many different peoples all over the world have taught us to be tolerant and that there are no superior and inferior peoples or ethnic groups. We tend to respect other peoples and to keep a dialogue with them even when we disagree with what they do. Human rights and peace are the goals we believe we share with most Europeans. Although some of us may have a peculiar way of showing it... :?
Sertorio,

Within the context of the question being asked this is a nonsensical reply.

Cassowary and I were/are challenging you to reveal how YOU, the unique individual you are, arrived at the world view you project over this website.

I think I can safely speak for Cassowary as well when I say that the last thing either one of us wanted by way your response is for you to assume/presume the identity of the country and civilisation you identify with as your own and reply as though you were no more than that.

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Re: Australia, Allende and the CIA

Post by Sertorio » Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:05 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 5:38 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Sep 13, 2021 7:06 am

I live in Europe, a region with a 2,500 year old civilization, and my country was active for hundreds of years in Asia, Africa and South America. Since 400 BC Greek and Roman philosophers have thought about the world and the human mind in a way which was unequaled anywhere else in the world. They created the basis for the modern world and gave rise to science and technology. We invented democracy and suggested a world without the need for gods or spirits. Along the way we mistreated lots of people but were the first to realize that we had to put a stop to it. We believe we may greatly contribute to a better and more humane world, but we need to recover our freedom of movement to do it. As a Portuguese I believe that our contacts over the centuries with so many different peoples all over the world have taught us to be tolerant and that there are no superior and inferior peoples or ethnic groups. We tend to respect other peoples and to keep a dialogue with them even when we disagree with what they do. Human rights and peace are the goals we believe we share with most Europeans. Although some of us may have a peculiar way of showing it... :?
Sertorio,

Within the context of the question being asked this is a nonsensical reply.

Cassowary and I were/are challenging you to reveal how YOU, the unique individual you are, arrived at the world view you project over this website.

I think I can safely speak for Cassowary as well when I say that the last thing either one of us wanted by way your response is for you to assume/presume the identity of the country and civilisation you identify with as your own and reply as though you were no more than that.
Nevertheless that's exactly it. I am a product of my culture and civilization, I spend a lot of my present time reading some of the classics - namely Epicurus and Lucretius, but also Cicero and Marcus Aurelius - and my comments on present day events are very much shaped by all that. In our world there are only three civilizations, the European, the Chinese and the Hindu, but the latter hasn't yet been able to give a modern structure to the country where it is based. So, all that's left is Europe and China, and the Anglosphere hasn't been able to clearly integrate in the European civilization. The Anglo world is a rogue one with messed up values and extremely egotist. Rather than build it destroys, and unless controlled it may yet cause great harm to the world as a whole. Eventually Europe (with Russia) and China will create a better balanced world, mostly peaceful and capable of shaping the future. But first the US and its sidekicks must be subdued.

neverfail
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Re: Australia, Allende and the CIA

Post by neverfail » Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:09 am

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:05 am
Nevertheless that's exactly it. I am a product of my culture and civilization, I spend a lot of my present time reading some of the classics - namely Epicurus and Lucretius, but also Cicero and Marcus Aurelius - and my comments on present day events are very much shaped by all that. In our world there are only three civilizations, the European, the Chinese and the Hindu, but the latter hasn't yet been able to give a modern structure to the country where it is based. So, all that's left is Europe and China, and the Anglosphere hasn't been able to clearly integrate in the European civilization. The Anglo world is a rogue one with messed up values and extremely egotist. Rather than build it destroys, and unless controlled it may yet cause great harm to the world as a whole. Eventually Europe (with Russia) and China will create a better balanced world, mostly peaceful and capable of shaping the future. But first the US and its sidekicks must be subdued.
So your positions are based upon book learning; second-hand information; the borrowed abstract ideas of others? Totally abscent from your above narriative is reference to a single first hand EXPERIENCE that could shed light on why you are as you are Sertorio.

Sertorio, I am not being patronising or superior when I say that "I pity you".

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Re: Australia, Allende and the CIA

Post by Sertorio » Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:27 am

neverfail wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 4:09 am
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Sep 14, 2021 2:05 am
Nevertheless that's exactly it. I am a product of my culture and civilization, I spend a lot of my present time reading some of the classics - namely Epicurus and Lucretius, but also Cicero and Marcus Aurelius - and my comments on present day events are very much shaped by all that. In our world there are only three civilizations, the European, the Chinese and the Hindu, but the latter hasn't yet been able to give a modern structure to the country where it is based. So, all that's left is Europe and China, and the Anglosphere hasn't been able to clearly integrate in the European civilization. The Anglo world is a rogue one with messed up values and extremely egotist. Rather than build it destroys, and unless controlled it may yet cause great harm to the world as a whole. Eventually Europe (with Russia) and China will create a better balanced world, mostly peaceful and capable of shaping the future. But first the US and its sidekicks must be subdued.
So your positions are based upon book learning; second-hand information; the borrowed abstract ideas of others? Totally abscent from your above narriative is reference to a single first hand EXPERIENCE that could shed light on why you are as you are Sertorio.

Sertorio, I am not being patronising or superior when I say that "I pity you".
In 79 years I assure you I have had plenty of experiences. But I am part of a whole. I blend my personal experiences with the experiences of all those people who built our civilization. My reflections are built on other people's reflections. Building the world around your individual experiences may be good for you, who are from the Anglo culture, but not for me...

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