Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

Post by SteveFoerster » Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:18 am

neverfail wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:17 am
SteveFoerster wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:47 am
You'd expect people who lived a thousand years after the height of Rome to be more advanced technologically.
So what?

Your undue focus on technological attainment as the benchmark standard for "civilisation" befits a man who cannot see beyond our finite life of but several decades in this world to the eternal afterlife beyond. Like Sertorio you seem to crave an earthly paradise through "progress" as an ungodly substitute: even though your definition of progress and his may differ.
As often happens to those overcome by the zeal to proselytise, you're way off the mark. As much as I like technological progress, I don't see it as a synonym for civilisation, I see them as orthogonal.

In fact, let me tell you a story to illustrate this. Dominica is a very mountainous island, and because of this the only place flat enough to put an airport that could handle regional flights is on the opposite side from the main town, a trip by car that takes over an hour. The high mountains of the interior sift moisture out of the air, causing an enormous amount of rainfall in the highlands, which makes it difficult to keep the roads in good repair.

One time coming back from a trip I was in a taxi going from the airport to the village where I lived. One going over a particularly bumpy patch of road the taximan remarked that maintaining civilisation there. So I said it was okay, that civilisation isn't about roads and cars, it's about how people behave.

In fact I only brought it up for the opposite reason, because arguments were being made like that Notre Dame shows that Christendom was more advanced than Antiquity.
neverfail wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:17 am
Has all of the "progress" made over the past 2,000 years ever created a single saint or saved one mortal sinner from damnation? Answer that if you dare to!

(...and do so without mocking!)
Since the question requires acceptance of supernatural concepts that I don't believe are real, my answer is neither yes nor no, but mu.

But I will say that Norman Borlaug did more for humanity than any Saint I can think of.

A better question is whether fifteen centuries of Christendom in the West has made its people noticeably nicer than those from other places, and I would definitely answer that one with "No."
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neverfail
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Re: Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

Post by neverfail » Thu Sep 02, 2021 3:26 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:18 am

In fact I only brought it up for the opposite reason, because arguments were being made like that Notre Dame shows that Christendom was more advanced than Antiquity.
Considering just how much was lost after the western Roman Empire collapsed I consider it a singular attainment that Gothic civilisation, the Age of Faith, was able to blossom as soon as during the European Middle Ages. The fact that it happened you cannot lay at the feet of the Christian church though its enemies (beginning with Edward Gibbon) have made repeated attempts to do so.
neverfail wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 1:17 am
Has all of the "progress" made over the past 2,000 years ever created a single saint or saved one mortal sinner from damnation? Answer that if you dare to!

(...and do so without mocking!)
SteveFoerster wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:18 am
Since the question requires acceptance of supernatural concepts that I don't believe are real, my answer is neither yes nor no, but mu.
:lol: A slippery evasion such as I could have expected from a politican trying to escape the consequences of a slip-up.
SteveFoerster wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 9:18 am
A better question is whether fifteen centuries of Christendom in the West has made its people noticeably nicer than those from other places, and I would definitely answer that one with "No."
Only nicer? You realise that being "nice" does not have the same meaning as being "good", don't you? To me "nice" suggests a shallow if pleasing superficiality in human relations.

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Milo
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Re: Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

Post by Milo » Thu Sep 02, 2021 4:41 pm

Perhaps we ask the wrong question here. After all, Japan was a major power with professional institutions long before the US occupation. How much building was necessary?

Afghanistan has not been a major power, ever. In fact its normal state seems to be a collection of, at best, satrapies, who have no vision of belonging to something bigger. Brute force and baksheesh unite it only for as long as they are applied, no other mechanisms seem to work, and, unlike Saudi Arabia, it’s not worth it to continually apply brute force and baksheesh.

Perhaps we are in a Yugoslavia situation: an artificial country that nobody wants to exist, except foreign service bureaucrats, and it’s better to just let the idea of Afghanistan go.

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Re: Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

Post by cassowary » Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:05 pm

Milo wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 4:41 pm
Perhaps we ask the wrong question here. After all, Japan was a major power with professional institutions long before the US occupation. How much building was necessary?

Afghanistan has not been a major power, ever. In fact its normal state seems to be a collection of, at best, satrapies, who have no vision of belonging to something bigger. Brute force and baksheesh unite it only for as long as they are applied, no other mechanisms seem to work, and, unlike Saudi Arabia, it’s not worth it to continually apply brute force and baksheesh.

Perhaps we are in a Yugoslavia situation: an artificial country that nobody wants to exist, except foreign service bureaucrats, and it’s better to just let the idea of Afghanistan go.
Good points. In other words, the Afghans are, in my preferred manner of prose, a bunch of bums that require lots of baksheesh and brute force to stitch together. Therefore they are not worth western generosity in their expenditure of blood and treasure to help.

The next question is how they became bums. After all, their ancestors were capable of such cultural achievements as the Bamiyan Buddha statue. This required loads of people and resources to build. So it means an advanced civilisation.

The same can be seen in Indonesia. They have Borobudur, a magnificent temple complex, built by their Buddhist ancestors. What architectural achievements did Indonesia and Afghanistan achieve after Islam took over? Nothing. Nada. Zilch.

I brought this up to point the difference a religion can make because somebody here sniffed at the Notre Dame Cathedral, as though it’s a given, that progress in all fields must occur.
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From noble Muslims to Saracen enemies

Post by cassowary » Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:21 pm

For those so inclined, read this. https://profile.nus.edu.sg/fass/mlsasmk/sari21-02.pdf.

This paper was written by a Muslim scholar, Syed khairuddin mohammed Aljunied from the National University of Singapore about our other Founder, Thomas Stamford Raffles.

Raffles made the point that Javanese civilisation declined after they converted to Islam. Instead of building prosperous societies with architectural achievements, they focused on jihad and attacked peaceful merchant ships. The same thing happened in the Barbary Coast which was America’s first encounter with what is today called radical Islam. (I prefer to call it the original Islam. )

So Raffles faced the same ideology as the Americans in Afghanistan which defeated the noble attempt to give them a better civilisation.
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Re: Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

Post by Sertorio » Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:03 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:05 pm
In other words, the Afghans are, in my preferred manner of prose, a bunch of bums that require lots of baksheesh and brute force to stitch together. Therefore they are not worth western generosity in their expenditure of blood and treasure to help.
People are people and, as such, always deserve our respect and consideration. They may be more or less developed, more or less united, more or less aware of a sense of identity, but they are potentially as capable as any other people. Provided they become more attached to knowledge and less attached to myths. Whether the myths are Muslim or Christian or Jewish.Fundamentalist Christians are as bad as fundamentalist Muslims or fundamentalist Jews. Between a Baptist from Southern USA, a Salafi Saudi Arabian or a Haredi Jew, there is little to choose. Unless they are a tiny minority they will screw up their societies for sure.

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Re: Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

Post by cassowary » Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:20 am

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 3:03 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:05 pm
In other words, the Afghans are, in my preferred manner of prose, a bunch of bums that require lots of baksheesh and brute force to stitch together. Therefore they are not worth western generosity in their expenditure of blood and treasure to help.
People are people and, as such, always deserve our respect and consideration. They may be more or less developed, more or less united, more or less aware of a sense of identity, but they are potentially as capable as any other people. Provided they become more attached to knowledge and less attached to myths. Whether the myths are Muslim or Christian or Jewish.Fundamentalist Christians are as bad as fundamentalist Muslims or fundamentalist Jews. Between a Baptist from Southern USA, a Salafi Saudi Arabian or a Haredi Jew, there is little to choose. Unless they are a tiny minority they will screw up their societies for sure.
I don't think so. Religions are different and will have different economic, social and political outcomes. I live in a multi religious community with Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists living side by side. I can see the difference in behavior and the differnce in outcomes in education, income etc.

Another comment: You forgot to mention the myth of Socialism which you believe in. Believers of this myth will cause poverty and death. Just look at what happened in the Gulags of Russia and the Killing fields of Cambodia. Look at how poor oil rich Venezuela became.

You only have to look at what happened to the Indonesians after they converted to Islam. No more grand monuments like Borobodor which required a sophisticated society to build. This was pointed out by Raffles at a time when western civilization was capable of being factually correct as opposed to being politically correct today.
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Re: Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

Post by lzzrdgrrl » Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:35 am

Before you can talk about nation building you have to consider nation unbuilding.......

Nations are essentially the maximal limits of community and sociability human evolution has prepared us to this time. Nation unbuilding sends us in the direction of alpha-driven dominance hierarchies more or less consistent with primate family groups or the next default social structure consistent with the effort. The common feature of un-nation building efforts is appeals to anarchy or revolution; the dismantling of human social structures which rewards competence, responsibility and adherence to rule by law and custom with a linear hierarchy driven by power and close cooperation to either climb up in the hierarchy or to stabilise it.......

My assumption is the foundational tenets of anarchic and revolutionary movements are impossible. Any sentient life on this planet cannot live outside the boundaries of some type of hierarchy and denying its existence doesn't make it go away. It's rather interesting to note that those that promote anarchy and revolution are rather high up in the current linear hierarchy, and though they benefit from it are rather unaware of it, a consistent pattern notable throughout the entire modern period. Let's have Christopher Skeet lay that out....'>....:

https://www.americanthinker.com/article ... s_not.html
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Re: Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

Post by SteveFoerster » Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:55 am

You:
neverfail wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 3:26 pm
:lol: A slippery evasion such as I could have expected from a politican trying to escape the consequences of a slip-up.
Also you:
neverfail wrote:
Thu Sep 02, 2021 3:26 pm
Only nicer? You realise that being "nice" does not have the same meaning as being "good", don't you? To me "nice" suggests a shallow if pleasing superficiality in human relations.
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Re: Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

Post by Doc » Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:06 am

lzzrdgrrl wrote:
Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:35 am
Before you can talk about nation building you have to consider nation unbuilding.......

Nations are essentially the maximal limits of community and sociability human evolution has prepared us to this time. Nation unbuilding sends us in the direction of alpha-driven dominance hierarchies more or less consistent with primate family groups or the next default social structure consistent with the effort. The common feature of un-nation building efforts is appeals to anarchy or revolution; the dismantling of human social structures which rewards competence, responsibility and adherence to rule by law and custom with a linear hierarchy driven by power and close cooperation to either climb up in the hierarchy or to stabilise it.......

My assumption is the foundational tenets of anarchic and revolutionary movements are impossible. Any sentient life on this planet cannot live outside the boundaries of some type of hierarchy and denying its existence doesn't make it go away. It's rather interesting to note that those that promote anarchy and revolution are rather high up in the current linear hierarchy, and though they benefit from it are rather unaware of it, a consistent pattern notable throughout the entire modern period. Let's have Christopher Skeet lay that out....'>....:

https://www.americanthinker.com/article ... s_not.html
With Anarchic and revolutionary movements it is almost always "Send in the tenets There's got to be tenets" But you doesn't have to call them clowns. (that's optional :P )
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Being Loewy Malkovich must be really pointless.
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