Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

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neverfail
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Re: Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

Post by neverfail » Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:33 pm

cassowary wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:54 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:21 pm
Christianity does no such thing. Am I the only one who's ever read German history? You know, the Thirty Years' War, and all that?
The Thirty Years' War was mostly a dynastic war between the Houses of Bourbon vs Hapsburg. The religious phase of the war ended very quickly, about a year after it started, if I recall correctly. After that, an ostensibly Catholic French King with his Prime Minster, Cardinal Richelieu, a prince of the Church helped a Protestant King Gustavus from Sweden to fight the Hapsburg by giving him money to hire an army. Wars were expensive and Sweden was poor.

France did not like the idea of being surrounded by their Hapsburg enemies. To the South was Spain, ruled by Hapsburg. To their North was the Spanish Netherlands. To the East was the Holy Roman Empire, also ruled by Hapsburg. So they supported the heritical enemies of their church to preserve the Interests of France and the Bourbon family.

This makes it a Dyanstic and National war, rather than a religious war. If it had been Catholics vs 'Protestants, it would have been no contest. The Protestants would have been defeated very early on.
That summary is exactly right Cassowary.

The term "Religious Wars" when applied to this conflict is a misnomer.

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Re: Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

Post by SteveFoerster » Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:31 am

And yet strangely, for how spiritually edifying Christianity is supposed to be, it did nothing at all to stem the carnage raging across Europe for two thousand years, and it's only been in living memory during its decline that Europe has by and large seen peace. Funny that.
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cassowary
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Re: Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

Post by cassowary » Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:05 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Aug 30, 2021 5:33 pm
cassowary wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:54 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Sun Aug 29, 2021 7:21 pm
Christianity does no such thing. Am I the only one who's ever read German history? You know, the Thirty Years' War, and all that?
The Thirty Years' War was mostly a dynastic war between the Houses of Bourbon vs Hapsburg. The religious phase of the war ended very quickly, about a year after it started, if I recall correctly. After that, an ostensibly Catholic French King with his Prime Minster, Cardinal Richelieu, a prince of the Church helped a Protestant King Gustavus from Sweden to fight the Hapsburg by giving him money to hire an army. Wars were expensive and Sweden was poor.

France did not like the idea of being surrounded by their Hapsburg enemies. To the South was Spain, ruled by Hapsburg. To their North was the Spanish Netherlands. To the East was the Holy Roman Empire, also ruled by Hapsburg. So they supported the heritical enemies of their church to preserve the Interests of France and the Bourbon family.

This makes it a Dyanstic and National war, rather than a religious war. If it had been Catholics vs 'Protestants, it would have been no contest. The Protestants would have been defeated very early on.
That summary is exactly right Cassowary.

The term "Religious Wars" when applied to this conflict is a misnomer.
Thanks, but I need to make a correction. France agreed to pay the Swedish King Gustavus Adolphus 1 million livres per year to fight in the Thirty Years War in 1631. The war had already been transforming into a non-religious war but 1631 is an useful cut off date to mark the end of the religious war and it became purely a dynastic and national war.

So a Catholic France with a cardinal to boot as its chief minister decided to support the Protestants. The reason is that France felt threatened by being encircled by the Hapsburg. Since the war spanned the period, 1618 to 1648, there was still 13 years and not one that was a religious war as I earlier misremembered.
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neverfail
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Re: Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

Post by neverfail » Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:24 pm

cassowary wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:05 pm

Thanks, but I need to make a correction. France agreed to pay the Swedish King Gustavus Adolphus 1 million livres per year to fight in the Thirty Years War in 1631. The war had already been transforming into a non-religious war but 1631 is an useful cut off date to mark the end of the religious war and it became purely a dynastic and national war.

So a Catholic France with a cardinal to boot as its chief minister decided to support the Protestants. The reason is that France felt threatened by being encircled by the Hapsburg. Since the war spanned the period, 1618 to 1648, there was still 13 years and not one that was a religious war as I earlier misremembered.
When I read your insert that "France agreed to pay the Swedish King Gustavus Adolphus 1 million livres per year" the econimic historian within got the better of me. So I did a rough calculation:

One ounce of gold was worth 93 livres....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_li ... %20deniers.
.......so it means that the Swedish king was being paid the equivalent of 10,753 ounces of gold per year to wage war on behalf of France.

Had it been Spain it would have been understandable as Spain had its tributary colonies in the Americas shipping enormous amounts of gold and silver specie to the seat of empire each year. But France had neither gold deposits nor silver orebodies within its home territory and unlike the rising merchantile powers of the 17th century, The Netherlands and England, it was not so prominant as a trading power either.

This leaves me with the vexing question: how did France obtain so much gold that it could afford to subsidise an ally so lavishly?

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Re: Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

Post by neverfail » Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:28 pm

SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:31 am
And yet strangely, for how spiritually edifying Christianity is supposed to be, it did nothing at all to stem the carnage raging across Europe for two thousand years, and it's only been in living memory during its decline that Europe has by and large seen peace. Funny that.
How do you know that they were all that "spiritually edified" back in those times anyway?

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cassowary
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Re: Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

Post by cassowary » Wed Sep 01, 2021 12:59 am

neverfail wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:24 pm
cassowary wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 7:05 pm

Thanks, but I need to make a correction. France agreed to pay the Swedish King Gustavus Adolphus 1 million livres per year to fight in the Thirty Years War in 1631. The war had already been transforming into a non-religious war but 1631 is an useful cut off date to mark the end of the religious war and it became purely a dynastic and national war.

So a Catholic France with a cardinal to boot as its chief minister decided to support the Protestants. The reason is that France felt threatened by being encircled by the Hapsburg. Since the war spanned the period, 1618 to 1648, there was still 13 years and not one that was a religious war as I earlier misremembered.
When I read your insert that "France agreed to pay the Swedish King Gustavus Adolphus 1 million livres per year" the econimic historian within got the better of me. So I did a rough calculation:

One ounce of gold was worth 93 livres....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_li ... %20deniers.
.......so it means that the Swedish king was being paid the equivalent of 10,753 ounces of gold per year to wage war on behalf of France.

Had it been Spain it would have been understandable as Spain had its tributary colonies in the Americas shipping enormous amounts of gold and silver specie to the seat of empire each year. But France had neither gold deposits nor silver orebodies within its home territory and unlike the rising merchantile powers of the 17th century, The Netherlands and England, it was not so prominant as a trading power either.

This leaves me with the vexing question: how did France obtain so much gold that it could afford to subsidise an ally so lavishly?
At today's price of $1,800 per oz of gold, 10,753 ozs works out to be 10,753 x US$1,800 = $19.4 million today. That does not sound like much today. Yet it could buy pay for an army in those days. Wait. Maybe I can find something about the French budget in the year 1631.

According to Wiki, most of the taxes were paid by the peasants who were farmers. Taxes reached 21 million livres in 1589, the closest year I could find to 1631, the year France started funding the Swedish King to fight in Germany. Biut it also mentioned that France had a national debt of 200 million livres in 1596.

Given the huge debt, I would guess that one million livres in 1631 was a huge burden on the French treasury.

This article is about France's state finances during the time of the 30 years' war. Let me sum up.

France was broke. Cardinal Richelieau, the Chief Minister, did whatever he could to please his master, the King Louis XIII. So if he needed money, he squeezed it out of the peasants - the poorest members of society. He dared not offend the nobility by taxing them. France was largely agricultural. So most of the revenue came from taxing the peasants instead of trade like the Netherlands, England and Spain who had colonies.

This led to many peasants' revolt which were brutally put down.
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Sertorio
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Re: Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

Post by Sertorio » Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:35 am

neverfail wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:28 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:31 am
And yet strangely, for how spiritually edifying Christianity is supposed to be, it did nothing at all to stem the carnage raging across Europe for two thousand years, and it's only been in living memory during its decline that Europe has by and large seen peace. Funny that.
How do you know that they were all that "spiritually edified" back in those times anyway?
Christianity was a totalitarian doctrine which succeeded in transforming the Roman Empire into a land of illiterate savages. It took one thousand years before the enlightening of the Renaissance could start re-civilizing Europe. And peace remained a dream until the 21st century. And it will remain a dream unless Europe frees itself from NATO and the US...

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Re: Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

Post by cassowary » Wed Sep 01, 2021 3:32 am

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:35 am
neverfail wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:28 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:31 am
And yet strangely, for how spiritually edifying Christianity is supposed to be, it did nothing at all to stem the carnage raging across Europe for two thousand years, and it's only been in living memory during its decline that Europe has by and large seen peace. Funny that.
How do you know that they were all that "spiritually edified" back in those times anyway?
Christianity was a totalitarian doctrine which succeeded in transforming the Roman Empire into a land of illiterate savages. It took one thousand years before the enlightening of the Renaissance could start re-civilizing Europe. And peace remained a dream until the 21st century. And it will remain a dream unless Europe frees itself from NATO and the US...
What a load of rubbish. Even during the medivial period, Christian science and arts were already more advanced than the Romans. Not to mention social progress such as the abolition of slavery (which admittedly restarted after the New World was discovered).
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Sertorio
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Re: Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

Post by Sertorio » Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:15 am

cassowary wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 3:32 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:35 am
neverfail wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:28 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:31 am
And yet strangely, for how spiritually edifying Christianity is supposed to be, it did nothing at all to stem the carnage raging across Europe for two thousand years, and it's only been in living memory during its decline that Europe has by and large seen peace. Funny that.
How do you know that they were all that "spiritually edified" back in those times anyway?
Christianity was a totalitarian doctrine which succeeded in transforming the Roman Empire into a land of illiterate savages. It took one thousand years before the enlightening of the Renaissance could start re-civilizing Europe. And peace remained a dream until the 21st century. And it will remain a dream unless Europe frees itself from NATO and the US...
What a load of rubbish. Even during the medivial period, Christian science and arts were already more advanced than the Romans. Not to mention social progress such as the abolition of slavery (which admittedly restarted after the New World was discovered).
I'm sure Galileo Galilei would agree with you. He was advanced, but look at what the Church did to him...

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cassowary
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Re: Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

Post by cassowary » Wed Sep 01, 2021 8:01 am

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 4:15 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 3:32 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Sep 01, 2021 1:35 am
neverfail wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:28 pm
SteveFoerster wrote:
Tue Aug 31, 2021 8:31 am
And yet strangely, for how spiritually edifying Christianity is supposed to be, it did nothing at all to stem the carnage raging across Europe for two thousand years, and it's only been in living memory during its decline that Europe has by and large seen peace. Funny that.
How do you know that they were all that "spiritually edified" back in those times anyway?
Christianity was a totalitarian doctrine which succeeded in transforming the Roman Empire into a land of illiterate savages. It took one thousand years before the enlightening of the Renaissance could start re-civilizing Europe. And peace remained a dream until the 21st century. And it will remain a dream unless Europe frees itself from NATO and the US...
What a load of rubbish. Even during the medivial period, Christian science and arts were already more advanced than the Romans. Not to mention social progress such as the abolition of slavery (which admittedly restarted after the New World was discovered).
I'm sure Galileo Galilei would agree with you. He was advanced, but look at what the Church did to him...
Yes. That's not the church's finest hour. But his ideas were the same as Copernicus, a canon of the church. Nothing happened to him. Galileo invented the telescope which confirmed Copernicus' theory. The Romans and Greeks did not have the telescope. The Pope got angry because in Galileo's book, there was a character called Simplicio (which sounds like simpleton to me) that the Pope recognised as referring to him. He was insulted and this caused the inquisition. Galileo was not mistreated. He was placed under house arrest.

When I am free, I will reread Rodney Stark's book which gave all the scientific, cultural, architectual, musical achievements of the Middle Ages that were more advanced than the Romans.

Of hand, I can recall the windmill, more advanced musical instruments, flying buttresses in architecture, the stirrup, plate armor. Meanwhile, I will leave you with this picture of Notre Dame, built in 1163. I think it rivals anything the Romans built.

Image

Isn't it beautiful?

Note the flying buttresses. That's an advance that the Romans did not have.
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