Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

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cassowary
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Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

Post by cassowary » Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:41 am

Why did the US failed in Afghanistan at nation building when it succeeded in Japan? The WWII Japanese were no less fanatical than the Taliban of today. At that time, the Japanese believed that their emperor was a god and were prepared to die for him in exchange for other worldly reward. Mohammed Atta was not the first suicide pilot who crashed the plane on Americans. That “first” beloned to the Japanese Kamikaze pilot. When the Emperor passed by in his motorcade, the Japanese who lined both sides of the street would turn their backs, not out of disprespect, but because they feared that looking at him would blind them.

After the war ended, MacArthur insisted on the first photograph of the emperor to be published. The dimunitative emperor stood beside the tall general and all illusions were shattered.

Image

This was no god that was worth dying for. The Japanese people became a blank page and was ready for the Americans to write on. They were ready to accept new ideas. America gave them their constitution, the ideas of democracy instead of a military dictatorship headed by a god-emperor and another way of achieving prosperity through trade instead of military conquest. Japan prospered as a capitalist democracy. Japan, to some extent, was remade into the image of America.

But in Afghanistan, things were different. The toxic ideas of jihadist Islam still remained after the defeat of the Taliban. The military sage, Sun Tzu, wrote that your army must have the moral high ground. This means that your soldiers must believe that their cause is just. Or they won’t fight. In the case of Afghanistan, it is the Taliban who held the moral high ground – to the Afghan people. The Taliban claimed to be fighting for Allah to implent Allah’s law on earth. They followed in the centuries old tradition starting with Prophet Mohammed of waging jihad to install Islamic law. What were the Afghan army fighting for? Democracy? Its an alien concept. Democracy means rule by man. But in the minds of many Muslims, that is placing mankind above Allah. It is only Allah who is sovereign, not man. It is Allah that must make all laws and not democratically elected leaders making laws that the people want.

So, perhaps that explains why the Afghan soldiers despite outnumbering the Taliban and better equipped did not want to fight. Many felt that they were fighting against Allah. The Taliban were the holy warriors who wanted to install Allah’s law or sharia. Killing them may incur hellfire. To win in Afghanistan, the US had to prove that Allah, like Hirohitho was a false god and thus not worth dying for. Worsening the problem was corruption. Funds were embezzled by their commanders and the soldiers were not properly fed or equipped despite massive US aid.

What to do now? What we don’t want is for the China or Russia encouraging the Taliban to support jihadists to attack the US and its allies. They have moved to recognise the Taliban. The smart thing to do is to hold your nose and recognise the Taliban. Don’t drive them closer to Russia or China. We have to accept reality. Telling the Taliban to give women equality may win votes in the US but will achieve zero in Afghanistan. They won’t listen to you. By retaining some influence in Kabul, you are still in the game. The Great Game is like a poker game. You lose one hand but get a new hand of cards to play after you fold the last game.

Russia and China has vulnerabilites with their own Muslims. Turn the Taliban guns on them.
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Re: Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

Post by neverfail » Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:58 am

Very good post Cassowary - and timely too.

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Re: Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

Post by cassowary » Tue Aug 17, 2021 2:25 am

neverfail wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:58 am
Very good post Cassowary - and timely too.
Thanks, Neverfail. I appreciate that.
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Re: Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

Post by Doc » Tue Aug 17, 2021 5:19 am

Image what they could have done in Japan if they had 20 years to plan an ending to WWII.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Re: Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

Post by Sertorio » Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:38 am

cassowary wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:41 am
The smart thing to do is to hold your nose and recognise the Taliban. Don’t drive them closer to Russia or China. We have to accept reality. Telling the Taliban to give women equality may win votes in the US but will achieve zero in Afghanistan. They won’t listen to you. By retaining some influence in Kabul, you are still in the game. The Great Game is like a poker game. You lose one hand but get a new hand of cards to play after you fold the last game.
Yes, do recognize the Taliban, but not Bashar al-Assad!... Indeed the latter is a lot worse than the former... Or is it that the Taliban might turn on Russia and China (FORGET IT!...)but al-Assad would never do it?... It's good to be principled!... :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

Post by Doc » Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:09 am

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:38 am
cassowary wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:41 am
The smart thing to do is to hold your nose and recognise the Taliban. Don’t drive them closer to Russia or China. We have to accept reality. Telling the Taliban to give women equality may win votes in the US but will achieve zero in Afghanistan. They won’t listen to you. By retaining some influence in Kabul, you are still in the game. The Great Game is like a poker game. You lose one hand but get a new hand of cards to play after you fold the last game.
Yes, do recognize the Taliban, but not Bashar al-Assad!... Indeed the latter is a lot worse than the former... Or is it that the Taliban might turn on Russia and China (FORGET IT!...)but al-Assad would never do it?... It's good to be principled!... :lol: :lol: :lol:
Hey Afghanistan used to be a stable if poor and backward country. Gee I wonder what happened? :?

“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Re: Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

Post by Milo » Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:28 pm

One thing that doesn't help at all is the continued naivete among many about the nature of Islam itself, hence the ridiculous story:
Taliban vow to honour women's rights within Islamic law in Afghanistan

The treatment of women varies widely across the Muslim world, sometimes even within the same country, with rural areas tending to be far more conservative.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/taliban-p ... -1.6143708

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Re: Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

Post by Milo » Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:32 pm

And it's worth saying that we should treat Afghanistan no worse than Saudi Arabia,who largely impose the same law on their populace as the Taliban will, and were more responsible for 911 than the Taliban.

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Re: Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

Post by neverfail » Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:27 pm

cassowary wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:41 am
To win in Afghanistan, the US had to prove that Allah, like Hirohitho was a false god and thus not worth dying for.
Well, you surely know what would have happened had they tried? That to Muslims worldwide the news would have been received as the unspeakable, unpardonable blasphemy transforming all lands where Muslims are resident into a gigantic jihad.

Catch 22!

Worsening the problem was corruption. Funds were embezzled by their commanders and the soldiers were not properly fed or equipped despite massive US aid.
That reminds me of something my father told me and the family one day about 1960 after he came home from work.

One of his clients that day had been a man who had just returned to Australia after working on a dam project in Pakistan. His occupation was clerk of works - responsible for issuing and monitoring the use of the firm's equipment. A clerk of works was not the sort of job you need high, esoteric academic qualifications for: you learn it by picking it up on the job - effectively via an apprenticeship. Curious, my father asked the man "don't they have local people up their with the qualifications to do the work?" The man replied "yes they do, but they can't trust them".

"Up there" (the man went on) "it is not considered a sin to steal; it is considered a sin NOT to steal. If you are in a position of authority and trust and you do not take full advantage of that to feather your own nest then everyone considers you a fool."

Afghanistan is socially and culturally like a northward, cross-border extension of Pakistan's lawless tribal region located in the Himalaya foothills adjacent to the Afghan border. Likely the same principle that "it is a sin not to steal" prevails up there also.
..........................................................................................................................................

I have never studied the Koran in depth so I do not know whether it, unlike our Bible, even incorporates a reference to the Mosiac 10 Commandments - the seventh injunction of which is "thou shalt not steal".

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Re: Why did the US failed in nation building in Afghanistan but succeeded in Japan?

Post by Doc » Tue Aug 17, 2021 8:41 pm

Milo wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 3:32 pm
And it's worth saying that we should treat Afghanistan no worse than Saudi Arabia,who largely impose the same law on their populace as the Taliban will, and were more responsible for 911 than the Taliban.
The Taliban gave safe haven to Bin Laden and AL Qaeda. They refused to arrest and extradite Bin Laden after 911. After Bin Laden admitted on camera that he master minded the murder of 3000 Americans.

Afghanistan was Obama's "Good War" It was a sham after Bin Laden was killed. There was no longer any reason for US troops to be there. Obama did not end it.

When Gen Miley came out that the US military should be "woke" it was nothing more than a distraction from what the top Generals have been doing for the last 9 years. It was all about corruption and money. They knew (including Obama) that the Afghan army was hopeless. They would never be able to stand up to the Taliban. $1,000,000,000,000.00 p*ssed away for this result An incompetent President getting 10's of 1000's of people murdered.

So who is worse ? Those that let this happen or the Taliban?

But maybe the Taliban will keep the same old promises they have broken in the past. We will know soon enough. Biden should be down on his knees begging the Taliban to stick with the agreement they made with Trump and Make Afghanistan Great Again.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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