The coming breakup of South Africa

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neverfail
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Re: The coming breakup of South Africa

Post by neverfail » Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:01 pm

Apollonius wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:34 pm

Good article Doc. Thanks for posting. It get's to the gist of what I was trying to explain earlier when I stated that being 'black' or 'white' (having darker or lighter skin) is nothing like the be-all and end-all of race, no matter how you choose to define it, least of all genetically.

Barack Obama who is commonly called America's first 'black' president is of course, as everyone knows, half Irish. So he's what used to be called mulatto. Is that now a verboten term? Sorry, I can't keep up with Cancel Culture and who might be offended by what. In any case, the Luo side of his family has less in common with the typical West African than a Mongolian has with an Englishman-- and that's only to speak of genetics!


Here's a good map of the evolution of skin colour:

Eurassain Origns of Lighter Skin.jpg



I can't remember where I found this, but in any case it's of course it's only intended to give an impression and approximation. When, for example, these studies talk about 'dark skin' they're really only talking about relatively dark (as compared to Europeans today). There remain many questions about where exactly this originated which the map does point to since it in fact shows two points of entry into Europe, both from the Asia Minor and from eastern Europe via the Caucasus. Both movements coincided with the Bølling-Allerød Interstadial, some 14,000 ya., so the dates on the map are not to be taken too seriously [1]. Interestingly, before that time Europeans still had about 6% of their genetic makeup from Neanderthals. Since this wave of migrants, that was reduced to 2%.


[1] It conflates, for example the earliest European agriculturalists (8,000 ya.) with the earlier migration (14,000 ya.) which is associated with the introduction of lighter skin colour.
Very well; but how does any of this stuff help the South Africans?

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cassowary
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Re: The coming breakup of South Africa

Post by cassowary » Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:05 pm

neverfail wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:02 pm
cassowary wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:25 am
My brothers. We all share the same faith. Let's be nice to one another. You should not have said that Neverfail.
That graph of conparative rises in average incomes of the various racial groups in South Africa since the end of apartheid that you published which inspired the verse: should'nt you have abstained from publishing that on the basis that it might cause someone offense as well, Cassowary?

Yes, I regret that another poster should have suffered an upset due to something that I wrote - especially as I never intended to cause the upset. But I can neither foresee nor control how another person will react emotively.
I too am guilty of causing offence. It is impossible not to cause offence in a forum, if we are to discuss matters freely.
The Imp :D

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cassowary
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Re: The coming breakup of South Africa

Post by cassowary » Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:19 pm

neverfail wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:01 pm
Apollonius wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:34 pm

Good article Doc. Thanks for posting. It get's to the gist of what I was trying to explain earlier when I stated that being 'black' or 'white' (having darker or lighter skin) is nothing like the be-all and end-all of race, no matter how you choose to define it, least of all genetically.

Barack Obama who is commonly called America's first 'black' president is of course, as everyone knows, half Irish. So he's what used to be called mulatto. Is that now a verboten term? Sorry, I can't keep up with Cancel Culture and who might be offended by what. In any case, the Luo side of his family has less in common with the typical West African than a Mongolian has with an Englishman-- and that's only to speak of genetics!


Here's a good map of the evolution of skin colour:

Eurassain Origns of Lighter Skin.jpg



I can't remember where I found this, but in any case it's of course it's only intended to give an impression and approximation. When, for example, these studies talk about 'dark skin' they're really only talking about relatively dark (as compared to Europeans today). There remain many questions about where exactly this originated which the map does point to since it in fact shows two points of entry into Europe, both from the Asia Minor and from eastern Europe via the Caucasus. Both movements coincided with the Bølling-Allerød Interstadial, some 14,000 ya., so the dates on the map are not to be taken too seriously [1]. Interestingly, before that time Europeans still had about 6% of their genetic makeup from Neanderthals. Since this wave of migrants, that was reduced to 2%.


[1] It conflates, for example the earliest European agriculturalists (8,000 ya.) with the earlier migration (14,000 ya.) which is associated with the introduction of lighter skin colour.
Very well; but how does any of this stuff help the South Africans?
Yeah, none whatsoever.

I think to help the South Africans and Africans in general is to tell the truth. The truth will set you free. Unfortunately, the truth hurts sometimes. The problems besetting South Africa as well as other parts of Africa are caused by the Africans themselves. When I published my data above, it was to drive home this point. The income gap black and white South Africans have widened since Apartheid ended 27 years ago. The Asians, who were also discriminated before, have narrowed the gap. So the most likely reason is cultural. For the black race to progress, they have to stop blaming past white sins and see what aspects of their cultures or attitudes that need to change.

Coming from a country that was once ruled by the British, I can't help contrasting the different outcomes between mine and most African countries south of the Sahara.

Many of these African countries were once part of the British empire - Kenya, Nigeria, South Africa, Tanzania etc. The British gave them independence about 70 years ago, just like Singapore. Yet I have come across Africans still blaming the British and other European colonialisers for their current poverty.
The Imp :D

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Doc
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Re: The coming breakup of South Africa

Post by Doc » Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:45 am

Apollonius wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:34 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:31 am
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:01 am
uche africanus wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 3:29 am
neverfail wrote:


Cass:

Re your chart: for some unknown reason it inspired me to compose verse:

1.) when you are white you will do all right.

2.) if you are Asian then nothing will faze 'em.

3.) when you are mixed race you are only just in the race.

4.) if you are black you remain at the back.



neverfail,

You know I really expected better from you. But you have chosen to reveal the meaness of your extraction. Australia has a sordid history and you are showing it in colorful display. That said, I urge you to enjoy this moment, a very transistory interlude because what is to come after it lasts forever and that eternity mostly belongs to the negros. Our earthly journey is at most four or five scores only, so feel free to celebrate your earthly, material "success" as much as you can because it ends and the real life of eternity in heaven begins. And that heaven is mostly populated by Africans.
It took about 10,000 years for the black skinned people who came from Africa to Europe to acquire their beautiful white skin!... :lol:
From the end of the last ice age 12,000 years ago to 6.000 years ago the population of Europe turned from dark skin to light skinned after an African gene entered the population.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/10 ... skin-color

New gene variants reveal the evolution of human skin color


The study adds to established research undercutting old notions of race. You can’t use skin color to classify humans, any more than you can use other complex traits like height, Tishkoff says. “There is so much diversity in Africans that there is no such thing as an African race.”

Good article Doc. Thanks for posting. It get's to the gist of what I was trying to explain earlier when I stated that being 'black' or 'white' (having darker or lighter skin) is nothing like the be-all and end-all of race, no matter how you choose to define it, least of all genetically.

Barack Obama who is commonly called America's first 'black' president is of course, as everyone knows, half Irish. So he's what used to be called mulatto. Is that now a verboten term? Sorry, I can't keep up with Cancel Culture and who might be offended by what. In any case, the Luo side of his family has less in common with the typical West African than a Mongolian has with an Englishman-- and that's only to speak of genetics!


Here's a good map of the evolution of skin colour:

Eurassain Origns of Lighter Skin.jpg



I can't remember where I found this, but in any case it's of course it's only intended to give an impression and approximation. When, for example, these studies talk about 'dark skin' they're really only talking about relatively dark (as compared to Europeans today). There remain many questions about where exactly this originated which the map does point to since it in fact shows two points of entry into Europe, both from the Asia Minor and from eastern Europe via the Caucasus. Both movements coincided with the Bølling-Allerød Interstadial, some 14,000 ya., so the dates on the map are not to be taken too seriously [1]. Interestingly, before that time Europeans still had about 6% of their genetic makeup from Neanderthals. Since this wave of migrants, that was reduced to 2%.


[1] It conflates, for example the earliest European agriculturalists (8,000 ya.) with the earlier migration (14,000 ya.) which is associated with the introduction of lighter skin colour.
Thanks. The ideas of different races of human has been scientifically dead for decades. There is 9 times more genetic diversity between individuals of any given group than there is between distantly geographically separated population groups. We are more individuals than anything to do with "race" "Skin" and "Hair" color.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

neverfail
Posts: 7601
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Location: Singapore

Re: The coming breakup of South Africa

Post by neverfail » Sat Aug 14, 2021 3:20 pm

Doc wrote:
Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:45 am
Apollonius wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:34 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:31 am
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:01 am
uche africanus wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 3:29 am
neverfail wrote:


Cass:

Re your chart: for some unknown reason it inspired me to compose verse:

1.) when you are white you will do all right.

2.) if you are Asian then nothing will faze 'em.

3.) when you are mixed race you are only just in the race.

4.) if you are black you remain at the back.



neverfail,

You know I really expected better from you. But you have chosen to reveal the meaness of your extraction. Australia has a sordid history and you are showing it in colorful display. That said, I urge you to enjoy this moment, a very transistory interlude because what is to come after it lasts forever and that eternity mostly belongs to the negros. Our earthly journey is at most four or five scores only, so feel free to celebrate your earthly, material "success" as much as you can because it ends and the real life of eternity in heaven begins. And that heaven is mostly populated by Africans.
It took about 10,000 years for the black skinned people who came from Africa to Europe to acquire their beautiful white skin!... :lol:
From the end of the last ice age 12,000 years ago to 6.000 years ago the population of Europe turned from dark skin to light skinned after an African gene entered the population.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/10 ... skin-color

New gene variants reveal the evolution of human skin color


The study adds to established research undercutting old notions of race. You can’t use skin color to classify humans, any more than you can use other complex traits like height, Tishkoff says. “There is so much diversity in Africans that there is no such thing as an African race.”

Good article Doc. Thanks for posting. It get's to the gist of what I was trying to explain earlier when I stated that being 'black' or 'white' (having darker or lighter skin) is nothing like the be-all and end-all of race, no matter how you choose to define it, least of all genetically.

Barack Obama who is commonly called America's first 'black' president is of course, as everyone knows, half Irish. So he's what used to be called mulatto. Is that now a verboten term? Sorry, I can't keep up with Cancel Culture and who might be offended by what. In any case, the Luo side of his family has less in common with the typical West African than a Mongolian has with an Englishman-- and that's only to speak of genetics!


Here's a good map of the evolution of skin colour:

Eurassain Origns of Lighter Skin.jpg



I can't remember where I found this, but in any case it's of course it's only intended to give an impression and approximation. When, for example, these studies talk about 'dark skin' they're really only talking about relatively dark (as compared to Europeans today). There remain many questions about where exactly this originated which the map does point to since it in fact shows two points of entry into Europe, both from the Asia Minor and from eastern Europe via the Caucasus. Both movements coincided with the Bølling-Allerød Interstadial, some 14,000 ya., so the dates on the map are not to be taken too seriously [1]. Interestingly, before that time Europeans still had about 6% of their genetic makeup from Neanderthals. Since this wave of migrants, that was reduced to 2%.


[1] It conflates, for example the earliest European agriculturalists (8,000 ya.) with the earlier migration (14,000 ya.) which is associated with the introduction of lighter skin colour.
Thanks. The ideas of different races of human has been scientifically dead for decades. There is 9 times more genetic diversity between individuals of any given group than there is between distantly geographically separated population groups. We are more individuals than anything to do with "race" "Skin" and "Hair" color.
Appolonius (and etc.)

When I inagurated this discussion titled The coming breakup of South Africa I did so without any bogus presumptions such as white racial superiority over the Afro. My focus was, and remains, on the political forces I see emerging that are likely to bring the breakup about. So as far as I am concerned the above sub-discussion on the likely source of differences in racial traits is an unwonted digression away from the theme.

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Doc
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Re: The coming breakup of South Africa

Post by Doc » Sat Aug 14, 2021 7:21 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sat Aug 14, 2021 3:20 pm
Doc wrote:
Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:45 am
Apollonius wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:34 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:31 am
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 7:01 am
uche africanus wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 3:29 am
neverfail wrote:


Cass:

Re your chart: for some unknown reason it inspired me to compose verse:

1.) when you are white you will do all right.

2.) if you are Asian then nothing will faze 'em.

3.) when you are mixed race you are only just in the race.

4.) if you are black you remain at the back.



neverfail,

You know I really expected better from you. But you have chosen to reveal the meaness of your extraction. Australia has a sordid history and you are showing it in colorful display. That said, I urge you to enjoy this moment, a very transistory interlude because what is to come after it lasts forever and that eternity mostly belongs to the negros. Our earthly journey is at most four or five scores only, so feel free to celebrate your earthly, material "success" as much as you can because it ends and the real life of eternity in heaven begins. And that heaven is mostly populated by Africans.
It took about 10,000 years for the black skinned people who came from Africa to Europe to acquire their beautiful white skin!... :lol:
From the end of the last ice age 12,000 years ago to 6.000 years ago the population of Europe turned from dark skin to light skinned after an African gene entered the population.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2017/10 ... skin-color

New gene variants reveal the evolution of human skin color


The study adds to established research undercutting old notions of race. You can’t use skin color to classify humans, any more than you can use other complex traits like height, Tishkoff says. “There is so much diversity in Africans that there is no such thing as an African race.”

Good article Doc. Thanks for posting. It get's to the gist of what I was trying to explain earlier when I stated that being 'black' or 'white' (having darker or lighter skin) is nothing like the be-all and end-all of race, no matter how you choose to define it, least of all genetically.

Barack Obama who is commonly called America's first 'black' president is of course, as everyone knows, half Irish. So he's what used to be called mulatto. Is that now a verboten term? Sorry, I can't keep up with Cancel Culture and who might be offended by what. In any case, the Luo side of his family has less in common with the typical West African than a Mongolian has with an Englishman-- and that's only to speak of genetics!


Here's a good map of the evolution of skin colour:

Eurassain Origns of Lighter Skin.jpg



I can't remember where I found this, but in any case it's of course it's only intended to give an impression and approximation. When, for example, these studies talk about 'dark skin' they're really only talking about relatively dark (as compared to Europeans today). There remain many questions about where exactly this originated which the map does point to since it in fact shows two points of entry into Europe, both from the Asia Minor and from eastern Europe via the Caucasus. Both movements coincided with the Bølling-Allerød Interstadial, some 14,000 ya., so the dates on the map are not to be taken too seriously [1]. Interestingly, before that time Europeans still had about 6% of their genetic makeup from Neanderthals. Since this wave of migrants, that was reduced to 2%.


[1] It conflates, for example the earliest European agriculturalists (8,000 ya.) with the earlier migration (14,000 ya.) which is associated with the introduction of lighter skin colour.
Thanks. The ideas of different races of human has been scientifically dead for decades. There is 9 times more genetic diversity between individuals of any given group than there is between distantly geographically separated population groups. We are more individuals than anything to do with "race" "Skin" and "Hair" color.
Appolonius (and etc.)

When I inagurated this discussion titled The coming breakup of South Africa I did so without any bogus presumptions such as white racial superiority over the Afro. My focus was, and remains, on the political forces I see emerging that are likely to bring the breakup about. So as far as I am concerned the above sub-discussion on the likely source of differences in racial traits is an unwonted digression away from the theme.
My guess is that South Africa will devolve into warring tribes. Made all the worst by the mixing of those tribes during it colonial and apartheid periods.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Apollonius
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Re: The coming breakup of South Africa

Post by Apollonius » Sun Aug 15, 2021 4:24 pm

neverfail wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 5:01 pm
Apollonius wrote:
Fri Aug 13, 2021 4:34 pm

Good article Doc. Thanks for posting. It get's to the gist of what I was trying to explain earlier when I stated that being 'black' or 'white' (having darker or lighter skin) is nothing like the be-all and end-all of race, no matter how you choose to define it, least of all genetically.

Barack Obama who is commonly called America's first 'black' president is of course, as everyone knows, half Irish. So he's what used to be called mulatto. Is that now a verboten term? Sorry, I can't keep up with Cancel Culture and who might be offended by what. In any case, the Luo side of his family has less in common with the typical West African than a Mongolian has with an Englishman-- and that's only to speak of genetics!


Here's a good map of the evolution of skin colour:

Eurassain Origns of Lighter Skin.jpg



I can't remember where I found this, but in any case it's of course it's only intended to give an impression and approximation. When, for example, these studies talk about 'dark skin' they're really only talking about relatively dark (as compared to Europeans today). There remain many questions about where exactly this originated which the map does point to since it in fact shows two points of entry into Europe, both from the Asia Minor and from eastern Europe via the Caucasus. Both movements coincided with the Bølling-Allerød Interstadial, some 14,000 ya., so the dates on the map are not to be taken too seriously [1]. Interestingly, before that time Europeans still had about 6% of their genetic makeup from Neanderthals. Since this wave of migrants, that was reduced to 2%.


[1] It conflates, for example the earliest European agriculturalists (8,000 ya.) with the earlier migration (14,000 ya.) which is associated with the introduction of lighter skin colour.
Very well; but how does any of this stuff help the South Africans?


Mention has been made of Yugoslavia. At least two now independent countries came out of the split-up in much better shape than before, namely Slovenia and Croatia.

Likewise an independent Cape Province would do well.

It's hard to say what would happen elsewhere, but the results could hardly be worse than what we've been seeing.

neverfail
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Re: The coming breakup of South Africa

Post by neverfail » Sun Aug 15, 2021 7:58 pm

Apollonius wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 4:24 pm

Mention has been made of Yugoslavia. At least two now independent countries came out of the split-up in much better shape than before, namely Slovenia and Croatia.
I absolutely agree!
Likewise an independent Cape Province would do well.


That remains to be seen.
It's hard to say what would happen elsewhere, but the results could hardly be worse than what we've been seeing.
Murphy's law: If anything can possibly go wrong, it will.

(Obviously, you are not of Irish anticedents Appolonius :D)
...............................................................................................

I cannot empherically prove this but I have reason to suspect that Slovenia's and Croatia's visible greater success may have something to do with the fact that the religious tradition of these two are of the Western mode whereas those of the southern republics of former Yugoslavia are all of the eastern Orthodox persuasion. You need only compare how much better Poland has done since the fall of Communism compared to Russia to realise that their must be something at work in the difference.

Appolonius; considering that most Afrikaaners are of the Dutch Reformed Church (i.e. Calvinist) persuasion and I believe that even not a few Cape Coloureds belong to it as well I would normally presume that a state populated by people like that would be a real go-er! But an internet colleague of mine from those parts who knows Afrikaaners has warned me off making any such rash presumptions.

Calvinist protestantism normally equips a people with the virtues of what was commonly known as the protestant work ethic. It is often overlooked these days that the "pwe package", along with not being work shy also includes a penchant for being frugal. Peoples back in Europe whose religious legacy is mainly Calvinist (including the Scots, Dutch and the Swiss) have long been famed for practising this virtue.

That however (my colleague warned me) is NOT the Afrikaaner way. "As soon as they get some money they spend it". What that suggests to me is that unlike the Scots, Dutch or Swiss the Afrikaaners do not have the makings of good capitalists in them.

We can only wait and see what happens.

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Sertorio
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Re: The coming breakup of South Africa

Post by Sertorio » Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:26 am

neverfail wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 7:58 pm
You need only compare how much better Poland has done since the fall of Communism compared to Russia to realise that their must be something at work in the difference.
You must be joking... :shock:

neverfail
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Re: The coming breakup of South Africa

Post by neverfail » Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:54 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:26 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 7:58 pm
You need only compare how much better Poland has done since the fall of Communism compared to Russia to realise that their must be something at work in the difference.
You must be joking... :shock:
:o ...and you must be in a state of denial!

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