The coming breakup of South Africa

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cassowary
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Re: The coming breakup of South Africa

Post by cassowary » Thu Aug 12, 2021 12:12 am

uche africanus wrote:
Wed Aug 11, 2021 7:52 am
cassowary wrote:

I don't understand how the Africans have a chip on their shoulder at the long departed colonials. Perhaps they had a bad experience with them. For us, the experience was so totally different. Sir Stamford Raffles founded our city, Singapore, but not our nation (that honor belongs to LKY).

Raffles is still honored in Singapore. His statue, erected during colonial days is still standing. The center of our business district is still called Raffles Square. One of our top schools is still called Raffles School, which Raffles founded. Then there is Raffles Medical, a major chain of clinics. My black American friend found it all so bizare. His comment was, "Its like you find something in Nigeria named after Lugard."

When the British left Africa, they tore down their statues, renamed the roads that had been named after some British colonial. Maybe the British treated the Africans badly. But over here, things were different. Raffles and his succesors invited Chinese, Indians and others to migrate into the country which was nearly empty of inhabitants.

Within 20 years of Singapore's founding, the immigrants prospered. One side of the Singapore River was where the offices of the East India Company were. Surviving records showed that they were dilapidated as the company struggled to make money. On the other side of the River were the homes cum offices of Chinese merchants. These were described as opulent, a sign of prosperity. So the locals actually did better than the colonials.

About five decades after Singapore's founding, the East India Company went broke and the British government took over the colony. By the time Singapore got its idependence, Chinese businessmen owned banks, plantations, businesses. So it was not a bad colonial experience for us. Things got even better for us after independence as we were free to make the best decisions for ourselves and not for London.

What went wrong in Africa that explains why so many Africans seem to bear a grudge against the white man? But whatever wrongs the British and other Europeans did in Africa, it does not explain current poverty. After all, the colonials left about 70 years ago.[/i]

cass,

You have a tendency to write rubbish. Your lack of knowledge evidently does not warrant humility on your part nor preclude you from boldly commenting on things you know nothing about.

South Africa is the way it is because of its long history of racism and racist practices that began many years ago and became formalized under apartheid in 1948. The blacks were denied access to education and the ability to acquire skills. Even where they had the requisite skillsets they were denied employment opportunities or the ability to own their own businesses. Almost every asset like land, natural resources were confiscated for the white minorities and less than 10 percent of the land was given to blacks to build and to farm on. This the source of the tragedy that continues to plague South Africa to this day.

Despite this calamity with far and long lasting consequences some misguided souls have no shame or even fear calling for an independent white country out of present day South Africa. And once again I would like to emphasize the point I have made before, this quest will never happen come rain, come thunder.
Err, Uche. I didn't mention South Africa at all. I was talking about Africa in general which got their idependence from the colonials like the British about 70 years ago. I understand, the blacks in South Africa got their liberation from White rule only in 1994. So they may need more time. But they have had 27 years since liberation. What have they achieved so far?

Why did British Africa and Singapore, which had the same colonial masters had such different outcomes? There is no rancour against the White man in Singapore. In fact, Raffles is still honored as the Founder of Singapore (city and not the nation). His statue is still in the same spot as during Independence Day.

Why did Singapore prosper when British Africa is still poor about 70 years since they all got independence? Why, even during colonial times, was there a class of Chinese and Indian businessmen who grew wealthy but not Africans in Africa? In fact, I note that there was a class of Indians descended from laborers brought in by the British who grew wealthy in places like Uganda. This led to jealousy and their subsequent expulsion by Idi Amin. Why, during the time when we got independence from the British, many banks, plantations, factories etc were in Chinese hands but none in African hands?
The Imp :D

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Re: The coming breakup of South Africa

Post by neverfail » Thu Aug 12, 2021 12:54 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu Aug 12, 2021 12:12 am

Err, Uche. I didn't mention South Africa at all. I was talking about Africa in general which got their idependence from the colonials like the British about 70 years ago. I understand, the blacks in South Africa got their liberation from White rule only in 1994. So they may need more time. But they have had 27 years since liberation. What have they achieved so far?

Why did British Africa and Singapore, which had the same colonial masters had such different outcomes? There is no rancour against the White man in Singapore. In fact, Raffles is still honored as the Founder of Singapore (city and not the nation). His statue is still in the same spot as during Independence Day.

Why did Singapore prosper when British Africa is still poor about 70 years since they all got independence? Why, even during colonial times, was there a class of Chinese and Indian businessmen who grew wealthy but not Africans in Africa? In fact, I note that there was a class of Indians descended from laborers brought in by the British who grew wealthy in places like Uganda. This led to jealousy and their subsequent expulsion by Idi Amin. Why, during the time when we got independence from the British, many banks, plantations, factories etc were in Chinese hands but none in African hands?
Not just in Uganda Cass. There are more than 3 million of them in Africa almost all of them on the Indian Ocean side of the continent. The biggest concentration of them of over one million are in the city of Durban. There are also sizeable pockets of them at Johassesburg and a smaller one at Cape town.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_South_Africans

The local blacks have a history of targeting the Indian community in race riots - beginning with a pogrom as far back as 1949:

https://www.sahistory.org.za/article/19 ... rom-durban

Now, what was it that Uche Africanus said about Bantu being the world's "leasdt racist"?

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Re: The coming breakup of South Africa

Post by uche africanus » Thu Aug 12, 2021 6:56 am

Cass,
Singapore was fortunate to have a leader with foresight and also by reason of geography which aided its economic growth and development. As a useful transit point for American troops in Vietnam, it attracted a great deal of economic aid and investments. It also helped that it a small country, a sort of one big mall, where it was easy to conduct all sorts development economic experiments and authoritarian political and social policies that will be difficult to introduce and implement in the large and multiethnic African nations.

Count your blessings but don’t act as if your achievements are extraordinary. Yours is still one trading post in a potentially combustible neighborhood with an uncertain future. Remember that all it will take is a barrage of long range artillery or rocket attacks from Muslim populated Malaysia or Indonesia and your economic miracle will burst like a bubble of soap.

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Re: The coming breakup of South Africa

Post by Milo » Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:12 am

Apartheid was not a British but a Boer idea. The British resisted it, not very much but they did, and when SA after independence still refused to give it up it, withdrew from the Commonwealth, rather than face pressure from it to reform. Post apartheid SA rejoined the Commonwealth.

Not that the British Empire was a model of tolerance but SA was definitely an outlier, even by that standard.

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Re: The coming breakup of South Africa

Post by uche africanus » Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:57 am

Milo,

You are absolutely correct. Britain opposed the abhorrent apartheid system. The English speaking white South Africans were also more amenable to changing that illegal system than the Dutch Afrikaners. It also helps explain the strong anti-English sentiments that the Afrikaners hold on to this present day. Now, they go around Africa telling us to be wary of the English. Really? But they like Israel a country that willingly and eagerly gave them the nuclear technology to kill God’s children, the Bantus. This why South Africa is more pro- Palestinians than pro- Israel in its foreign policy. Africans have the memory of elephants. It has also made it difficult to gain much Israeli in-road in Africa because that country’s ill-advised and immature clandestine relationship with the white, racist oppressors at a time when we were deeply vulnerable. This is a historical fact and will remain a permanent record.

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Re: The coming breakup of South Africa

Post by Milo » Thu Aug 12, 2021 12:02 pm

uche africanus wrote:
Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:57 am
Milo,

You are absolutely correct. Britain opposed the abhorrent apartheid system. The English speaking white South Africans were also more amenable to changing that illegal system than the Dutch Afrikaners. It also helps explain the strong anti-English sentiments that the Afrikaners hold on to this present day. Now, they go around Africa telling us to be wary of the English. Really? But they like Israel a country that willingly and eagerly gave them the nuclear technology to kill God’s children, the Bantus. This why South Africa is more pro- Palestinians than pro- Israel in its foreign policy. Africans have the memory of elephants. It has also made it difficult to gain much Israeli in-road in Africa because that country’s ill-advised and immature clandestine relationship with the white, racist oppressors at a time when we were deeply vulnerable. This is a historical fact and will remain a permanent record.
At the time SA was sanctioned by much of the world. The sanctions were quite indiscriminate and both opposed and supported by large factions of SA blacks. Israel was willing to cooperate with the SA government. I suspect they got a lot in return. Probably not worth it as it turned out but I am sure we don’t know what all Israel got.

The Japanese also traded with the SA government at the time, does the blame accrue to them as much? I couldn’t say.

One of the first real reforms of apartheid was to allow Japanese businesspeople to stay at good hotels!

One can’t afford to believe in miracles in international affairs and the transition from apartheid to democracy in SA, without a vast civil war, was one. Maybe they just put it off?

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Re: The coming breakup of South Africa

Post by uche africanus » Thu Aug 12, 2021 2:54 pm

Very good perspective, Milo. A very matured, measured and insightful perspectives. Regarding Japan, one barely hears them mentioned as enablers of the apartheid regime in the same way one hears of Israel or of Iran under the Pahlavi regime.

The Japanese were actually accorded the status of “honorary whites” in the apartheid system of racial classifications, the others being Coloured, Indians, Whites and Bantus. As an aside, l do not understand the Asian fascination with the color, white. Maybe, Cass will help us understand what it is all about. Asian women also appear to have a morbid fascination for white men that there is a term for it which now escapes me.

But to be fair, when l visited China in the late 1990s with my then ex-wife, the women were bold in their flirting and propositions. When l asked them why they do this they said that l look like the Buddha. I knew that could not have been it, seeing that l do not have the Buddha’s protruding but gut or the placid calmness of his face. What we shared was the color of our skins. While the attention that l received felt good, l had to change my friendly demeanor because l felt terrible with my wife having to put up with their behaviors.

Returning to the topic of our discussion. A number of Arab countries clandestinely traded with the Boer nationalist governments as did many others in Europe and elsewhere including the Germans who ought to have known better. But in fora when we push for Israel’s presence in Africa like re-establishing it’s observer status at the African Union we get pushbacks with reminders of its past dealings with the white minority regime in SA. And they also bring up the issue of Palestinians as if we should care. Almost every Palestinian that l have met are a nothing more than Arab racists.

One more point l wish to add to your otherwise excellent post is just one minor correction. The only blacks who were against the sanctions on the white apartheid government were Chief Buthelezi and some of his Zulus supporters who were merely tools for hire and often constituted a rented crowd.

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Re: South Africa, Israel and the Atomic bomb.

Post by neverfail » Thu Aug 12, 2021 4:05 pm

A German friend of many years past once told me that Konrad Adanuer, the post WW2 German politican who laid the foundations for the Federal German republic once said 'if you cannot bring yourself to swallow 6 or 7 live toads first thing in the morning on an empty stomach then don't go into politics".

That rule seems to have an application likewise to the way nations conduct their international relations. Most of the time they do it with a detached impartiality with the goal of furthering their best interests - and never mind disapproval of some aspects of your diplomatic/trading partner's conduct in other matters.

That Israel came together with South Africa in jointly developing the atomic bomb did not necessarily mean Israeli approval of Apartheid. It was just that where else could Israel have gone with the project? Would even one Bantu state anywhere in post-colonial Africa have allowed the Israelis to conduct a nuclear test explosion on their territory? Perish the thought that any of Israel's Arab neighbours would have. Even Israel's long lived ally of convenience the United States would not have permitted use of any of their test sites to undertake the crucial test explosion.
.................................................................................................................................................

Before it "self-liquidated" in 1994 South Africa, under the control of the Afrikaaner Nationalist Party, I believe had managed to construct and assemble a total of three atomic bombs. Before they handed over power to the ANC in 1994 they dismantled and destroyed all three - lest these fall into "irresponsible hands."

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Re: The coming breakup of South Africa

Post by cassowary » Thu Aug 12, 2021 5:18 pm

uche africanus wrote:
Thu Aug 12, 2021 6:56 am
Cass,
Singapore was fortunate to have a leader with foresight and also by reason of geography which aided its economic growth and development.
Yes, that's true. LKY was a rarity. Africa had the splendid Nelson Mandela. Jomo Kenyatta was also not bad. But none of them produced another Singapore.
As a useful transit point for American troops in Vietnam, it attracted a great deal of economic aid and investments.
That helped. But the Vietnam War ended in 1975. Our development did not end with the war.
It also helped that it a small country, a sort of one big mall, where it was easy to conduct all sorts development economic experiments and authoritarian political and social policies that will be difficult to introduce and implement in the large and multiethnic African nations.
That helps too. But we also suffer from disadvantages - lack of natural resources, a small area and sometimes unfriendly neighbors which forced us to invest heavily on defence. We too are multiethnic - Chinese, Malays and Indians. By the way, the Chinese also is subdivided into various dialect groups, or what you call tribes - Hokkien, Cantonese, Teochew, Hainanese, Hakka etc. Somehow, we solved all these problems and none of the Chinese "tribes" fought one another. Maybe that explains why oil rich Nigeria is poor while zero natural resources Singapore is rich.

Africa also has its share of authoritarian governments. But that didn't help African countries if you are trying to say that our early authoritarian government under LKY helped us. In case you don't know, we are no longer authoritarian. We are now classified as a "flawed democracy", same category as the US, Japan and Portugal. Sertorio, take note. Being authoritarian is a double edged sword. Concentrating power can help economic development if that power is used to push through correct policies. LKY used that power to send Socialists into jail or exile. That's how we got rich. Socialism creates equal poverty while capitalism creates unequal wealth.

Also, at the time of independence, we already had a pool of successful entrepreneurs who owned banks, plantations and other commercial enterprises. We managed to develop an entrepreneurial class which owned plantations, banks etc under British colonialism while British ruled African countries did not seem to have done so. In fact, historical records show Chinese merchants prospered in the early colonial days while the East India Company struggled and eventually went bust.
Count your blessings but don’t act as if your achievements are extraordinary. Yours is still one trading post in a potentially combustible neighborhood with an uncertain future. Remember that all it will take is a barrage of long range artillery or rocket attacks from Muslim populated Malaysia or Indonesia and your economic miracle will burst like a bubble of soap.
I think our achievements are extraordinary. Otherwise, many other parts of the world would also have achieved them. How many Singapores are there in Africa?

Indonesia is far away for artillery and they don't have rockets that can reach Singapore. If Malaysia tries something like that, we will clobber them.

The Imp :D

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Re: The coming breakup of South Africa

Post by cassowary » Thu Aug 12, 2021 6:06 pm

neverfail wrote:
Thu Aug 12, 2021 12:54 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Aug 12, 2021 12:12 am

Err, Uche. I didn't mention South Africa at all. I was talking about Africa in general which got their idependence from the colonials like the British about 70 years ago. I understand, the blacks in South Africa got their liberation from White rule only in 1994. So they may need more time. But they have had 27 years since liberation. What have they achieved so far?

Why did British Africa and Singapore, which had the same colonial masters had such different outcomes? There is no rancour against the White man in Singapore. In fact, Raffles is still honored as the Founder of Singapore (city and not the nation). His statue is still in the same spot as during Independence Day.

Why did Singapore prosper when British Africa is still poor about 70 years since they all got independence? Why, even during colonial times, was there a class of Chinese and Indian businessmen who grew wealthy but not Africans in Africa? In fact, I note that there was a class of Indians descended from laborers brought in by the British who grew wealthy in places like Uganda. This led to jealousy and their subsequent expulsion by Idi Amin. Why, during the time when we got independence from the British, many banks, plantations, factories etc were in Chinese hands but none in African hands?
Not just in Uganda Cass. There are more than 3 million of them in Africa almost all of them on the Indian Ocean side of the continent. The biggest concentration of them of over one million are in the city of Durban. There are also sizeable pockets of them at Johassesburg and a smaller one at Cape town.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_South_Africans

The local blacks have a history of targeting the Indian community in race riots - beginning with a pogrom as far back as 1949:

https://www.sahistory.org.za/article/19 ... rom-durban

Now, what was it that Uche Africanus said about Bantu being the world's "leasdt racist"?
Haha. There is racism everywhere. As I tried to explain, its the flip side of family love. Thus it is in our DNA. The relative success of the Indians in South Africa indicates that there is more at work than just Apartheid to explain the poverty of the Bantus in South Africa.

This article describes South Africa's progress before and after Apartheid ended.

This is an interesting chart taken from linked article:

Image

As you can see, without apartheid, the two groups that saw the highest rise in income are the Whites and Asians. The Blacks and Coloreds also showed improvement in income, especially in the first five years after Apartheid ended but slow improvement after that. The jump in income in the first five years following the end of Apartheid can be attributed to ending restrictions that hampered the business and job opportunities that non whites suffered under Apartheid.

But after five years, its an equal contest. Yet the income gap between whites, Asians on the one hand and blacks and coloreds on the other widened. So I think something else is at work. Its not racism that hinders black under achievement. I see that same pattern in Malaysia and Singapore. In Malaysia, the Malay majority has slower economic progress than the minority Chinese. So it cannot be attributed to racism or discrimination because the Malays hold the political power. Yet I come across Africans blaming the White man for sins long past.
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