Good News from Cuba! [not for Sertorio]

Discussion of current events
neverfail
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Re: Good News from Cuba! [not for Sertorio]

Post by neverfail » Thu Jul 15, 2021 12:50 am

cassowary wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:25 pm

It was one of my favorite cartoons - along with Bugs Bunny.
:?: :?: :?:

:idea:

"Bugs Bunny is my honey,
for on the screen he's very funny?"

:D

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Sertorio
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Re: Good News from Cuba! [not for Sertorio]

Post by Sertorio » Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:21 am

cassowary wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:24 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:34 pm

What issues?...As far as I know no graves of abused native children have been found in Portugal...
That's because they are all in Africa - Angola and Mozambique.
LISBON — The heads of enemy soldiers impaled on roadside trees. Hundreds of prisoners tortured, killed and dumped in mass graves. Napalm dropped on jungles where guerrillas sheltered, and grass-hut villages torched with cigarette lighters.
These gruesome acts were carried out in Portugal’s name two generations ago during its colonial wars in Africa. But for most Portuguese, the events aren’t history -- they’re news.

A groundbreaking series aired by public broadcaster Radiotelevisao Portuguesa is confronting Portugal with unsettling aspects of its recent history that for decades have been shrouded in silence.
Sertorio, since you served there as an officer, you must have witnessed some of this or even participated in the atrocities.
There have been atrocities in every war ever fought since Man exists. In my two years in Angola I never saw any happening and, in any case, killing in a war is one thing, abusing children in peace time, whose only crime was being from a different culture, is quite something else. Even you should be able to see the difference. But I suppose your extreme social Darwinism will justify any atrocity...

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cassowary
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Re: Good News from Cuba! [not for Sertorio]

Post by cassowary » Thu Jul 15, 2021 3:19 am

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 2:21 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:24 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 5:34 pm

What issues?...As far as I know no graves of abused native children have been found in Portugal...
That's because they are all in Africa - Angola and Mozambique.
LISBON — The heads of enemy soldiers impaled on roadside trees. Hundreds of prisoners tortured, killed and dumped in mass graves. Napalm dropped on jungles where guerrillas sheltered, and grass-hut villages torched with cigarette lighters.
These gruesome acts were carried out in Portugal’s name two generations ago during its colonial wars in Africa. But for most Portuguese, the events aren’t history -- they’re news.

A groundbreaking series aired by public broadcaster Radiotelevisao Portuguesa is confronting Portugal with unsettling aspects of its recent history that for decades have been shrouded in silence.
Sertorio, since you served there as an officer, you must have witnessed some of this or even participated in the atrocities.
There have been atrocities in every war ever fought since Man exists. In my two years in Angola I never saw any happening and, in any case, killing in a war is one thing, abusing children in peace time, whose only crime was being from a different culture, is quite something else. Even you should be able to see the difference. But I suppose your extreme social Darwinism will justify any atrocity...
I agree with you that in all wars, people get killed.

Well, in the case of the Catholic schools in Canada, the intention was good and the death of young children was unintentional. The purpose was to bring the kids to modern civilization. I think the Australians had the same idea. The native American Canadians were taught a new language and culture.

It was an attempt to build cultural capital. Let's face it. The natives were rather primitive. Leaving to their parents to bring them up will not bring them to the modern world. They need new attitudes and modes of thinking from that of their parents'. Unfortunately, many died. Lack of resources to care for them led to their deaths. It was not out of hatred or anger but despite good intentions. Who knows? If left to their parents perhaps as many would also have died. How many kids in primitive people survived to adulthood anyway? Any data from say the Amazonian tribes? Or how about the Australian abbos of long ago living the traditional lifestyle as hunter gatherers?

In your case, the killings were due to a colonial war. The people there wanted to be free of Portuguese rule. You might have offered them citizenship but of course, that would be impractical. Their numbers were greater than the Portuguese and you would ended up being ruled by primitive people.

So the right thing to do was to give up your colonies which you eventually did after the wars drained the Portuguese treasury. Actually, holding on to an empire was economically non-viable perhaps as early as the late 19th century.

That was probably why the East India Company went bust. The British Industrial revolution drove up wages. So it became expensive for the East India company to hire soldiers and adminstators for their empire. So the British government took over after the EIC went bust.

Using taxpayers' money, they could sustain the empire for another 80 years. The empire did serve useful functions even if not profitable. It provided manpower for the two world wars. It provided cheap raw materials from British industry and markets for their manufactured goods.

But after WWII, the British simply could not afford to keep it. By then, the war had drained the British treasury and they were quite broke. Keeping the natives down became quite expensive as they became more sophisticated. Portugal made the foolish mistake of trying to keep the empire long after it was not profitable. As a result, Portugal became the poorest country in Western Europe.
The Imp :D

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Re: Good News from Cuba! [not for Sertorio]

Post by Sertorio » Thu Jul 15, 2021 3:54 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 3:19 am

Well, in the case of the Catholic schools in Canada, the intention was good and the death of young children was unintentional. The purpose was to bring the kids to modern civilization. I think the Australians had the same idea. The native American Canadians were taught a new language and culture.

It was an attempt to build cultural capital. Let's face it. The natives were rather primitive. Leaving to their parents to bring them up will not bring them to the modern world. They need new attitudes and modes of thinking from that of their parents'. Unfortunately, many died. Lack of resources to care for them led to their deaths. It was not out of hatred or anger but despite good intentions. Who knows? If left to their parents perhaps as many would also have died. How many kids in primitive people survived to adulthood anyway? Any data from say the Amazonian tribes? Or how about the Australian abbos of long ago living the traditional lifestyle as hunter gatherers?
That you can try to justify cultural genocide is beyond understanding. I suppose you think the British were trying too to civilize the Chinese in the 19th century, but the stupid "chinks" kept refusing to smoke the opium the British had so kindly supplied them... Opium to the Chinese or alcohol to the Native Americans was just a way to bring the natives to civilization...
cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 3:19 am
In your case, the killings were due to a colonial war. The people there wanted to be free of Portuguese rule. You might have offered them citizenship but of course, that would be impractical. Their numbers were greater than the Portuguese and you would ended up being ruled by primitive people.
Actually, in 1974, all inhabitants of the Portuguese Overseas Provinces had the Portuguese nationality and the right to vote. Of course people's rights in Portugal - for both White and Black - weren't that many, but they were equal. But since a significant share of those people wanted independence all we could do was accepting their demand. Which we eventually did. But not because the war was putting an undue strain on our economy. In fact, by 1973 most of the war expenses in Africa were being paid by local resources and about 50% of the military were locals. And the share of military expenses on our national budget was decreasing. We could have kept the war going for many years, had we wanted it. Our relative poverty, compared with the rest of Europe, had nothing to do with our fighting in Africa.
[/quote]

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Re: Good News from Cuba! [not for Sertorio]

Post by neverfail » Thu Jul 15, 2021 5:45 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 3:19 am

Well, in the case of the Catholic schools in Canada, the intention was good and the death of young children was unintentional. The purpose was to bring the kids to modern civilization. I think the Australians had the same idea. The native American Canadians were taught a new language and culture.

It was an attempt to build cultural capital. Let's face it. The natives were rather primitive. Leaving to their parents to bring them up will not bring them to the modern world. They need new attitudes and modes of thinking from that of their parents'. Unfortunately, many died. Lack of resources to care for them led to their deaths. It was not out of hatred or anger but despite good intentions. Who knows? If left to their parents perhaps as many would also have died. How many kids in primitive people survived to adulthood anyway? Any data from say the Amazonian tribes? Or how about the Australian abbos of long ago living the traditional lifestyle as hunter gatherers?
Cassowary, I want to thank you for that note.

The news media coverage here (most likely in Canada and elsewhere too) has deliberately left you with the impression that the hundreds of bodies found in those graves were the victims of mass murder perpetrated by the Catholic nuns who were supposed to have been their carers. More likely it was (as you allege) due to lack of adequate resources.

The pity about it was that the parents did not voluntarily send their kids to these boarding schools: they were compulsorily removed by the state as a matter of policy.

Institutional care is never a replacement for maternal and paternal love by the genetic parents. It is always cold and impersonal. Some native people (I know this from some tragic cases among Australian aboriginals) when seperated from their kin and community simply give up the will to live.

We know all of this now: we did not know about it while it was taking place.

Abuses of children in institution care was in those days not talked about or publicised in the media. As for the authorities in charge these were given the benefit of the doubt and trusted to be doing the right thing. One never heard of abuse of children in institutionalised care in those days.

In the 1950's when I was in our formative years we rarely thought about the Australian Aboriginals but on the occasions when we did we (the general public I mean) assumed that these would eventually adopt our way of life holus bolus. And why not? Our civilisation and way of life was seen at the time (not without reason) to be the best one ever invented in the entire history (and prehistory) of mankind - so we were doing our indigenous countrymen a favour by inviting them to join us.

Most aboriginals by the 1950's had given up there old hunter-gatherer way of life which by this time was patently unsustainable. That when you chanced to meet any they appeared to be visibly poor duisturbed very few. It was presumed by most white Australians that it must be because they had not put the effort into bettering themselves. At the time we had growing number of foreign immigrants in our midst: not just the hard working Dutch and Germans but even from backward regions of Mediterranean like southern Italy and Greece (though they were few in number at the time Sertorio we did not even distain letting Portuguese into our country as settlers :) ). We observed how even wogs from these above mentioned moribund Mediterranean backwaters could arrive not even able to speak a word of English yet in most cases still ended up doing rather well for themselves. As exemplified by the foreign immigrants Australia was/is clearly a land of opportunity for all so no excuse for Australian aboriginals not doing better.

Very likely in Canada prevailing opinions in society like official native policy would have been the same there as in Australia.

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cassowary
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Re: Good News from Cuba! [not for Sertorio]

Post by cassowary » Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:31 am

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 3:54 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 3:19 am

Well, in the case of the Catholic schools in Canada, the intention was good and the death of young children was unintentional. The purpose was to bring the kids to modern civilization. I think the Australians had the same idea. The native American Canadians were taught a new language and culture.

It was an attempt to build cultural capital. Let's face it. The natives were rather primitive. Leaving to their parents to bring them up will not bring them to the modern world. They need new attitudes and modes of thinking from that of their parents'. Unfortunately, many died. Lack of resources to care for them led to their deaths. It was not out of hatred or anger but despite good intentions. Who knows? If left to their parents perhaps as many would also have died. How many kids in primitive people survived to adulthood anyway? Any data from say the Amazonian tribes? Or how about the Australian abbos of long ago living the traditional lifestyle as hunter gatherers?
That you can try to justify cultural genocide is beyond understanding. I suppose you think the British were trying too to civilize the Chinese in the 19th century, but the stupid "chinks" kept refusing to smoke the opium the British had so kindly supplied them... Opium to the Chinese or alcohol to the Native Americans was just a way to bring the natives to civilization...
You are picking the worst behavior of the British and Americans. What about the institutions of rule of law left behind by the British? What about the Parliamentary system ie democracy. What about the schools like the one I attended set up by a Methodist missionary? It provided quality education. Otherwise, I could not argue so eloquently and successfully with you.

In the interaction with the British, the Chinese in Singapore achieved a blend of Chinese and western thinking that I think is better than both.
cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 3:19 am
In your case, the killings were due to a colonial war. The people there wanted to be free of Portuguese rule. You might have offered them citizenship but of course, that would be impractical. Their numbers were greater than the Portuguese and you would ended up being ruled by primitive people.
Actually, in 1974, all inhabitants of the Portuguese Overseas Provinces had the Portuguese nationality and the right to vote. Of course people's rights in Portugal - for both White and Black - weren't that many, but they were equal. But since a significant share of those people wanted independence all we could do was accepting their demand. Which we eventually did. But not because the war was putting an undue strain on our economy. In fact, by 1973 most of the war expenses in Africa were being paid by local resources and about 50% of the military were locals. And the share of military expenses on our national budget was decreasing. We could have kept the war going for many years, had we wanted it. Our relative poverty, compared with the rest of Europe, had nothing to do with our fighting in Africa.
[/quote]

Of course, the colonial war impoverished Portugal. How else do you explain why Portugal became the poorest country in western Europe?
The Imp :D

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Re: Good News from Cuba! [not for Sertorio]

Post by cassowary » Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:56 am

neverfail wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 5:45 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 3:19 am

Well, in the case of the Catholic schools in Canada, the intention was good and the death of young children was unintentional. The purpose was to bring the kids to modern civilization. I think the Australians had the same idea. The native American Canadians were taught a new language and culture.

It was an attempt to build cultural capital. Let's face it. The natives were rather primitive. Leaving to their parents to bring them up will not bring them to the modern world. They need new attitudes and modes of thinking from that of their parents'. Unfortunately, many died. Lack of resources to care for them led to their deaths. It was not out of hatred or anger but despite good intentions. Who knows? If left to their parents perhaps as many would also have died. How many kids in primitive people survived to adulthood anyway? Any data from say the Amazonian tribes? Or how about the Australian abbos of long ago living the traditional lifestyle as hunter gatherers?
Cassowary, I want to thank you for that note.

The news media coverage here (most likely in Canada and elsewhere too) has deliberately left you with the impression that the hundreds of bodies found in those graves were the victims of mass murder perpetrated by the Catholic nuns who were supposed to have been their carers. More likely it was (as you allege) due to lack of adequate resources.

The pity about it was that the parents did not voluntarily send their kids to these boarding schools: they were compulsorily removed by the state as a matter of policy.

Institutional care is never a replacement for maternal and paternal love by the genetic parents. It is always cold and impersonal. Some native people (I know this from some tragic cases among Australian aboriginals) when seperated from their kin and community simply give up the will to live.

We know all of this now: we did not know about it while it was taking place.

Abuses of children in institution care was in those days not talked about or publicised in the media. As for the authorities in charge these were given the benefit of the doubt and trusted to be doing the right thing. One never heard of abuse of children in institutionalised care in those days.

In the 1950's when I was in our formative years we rarely thought about the Australian Aboriginals but on the occasions when we did we (the general public I mean) assumed that these would eventually adopt our way of life holus bolus. And why not? Our civilisation and way of life was seen at the time (not without reason) to be the best one ever invented in the entire history (and prehistory) of mankind - so we were doing our indigenous countrymen a favour by inviting them to join us.

Most aboriginals by the 1950's had given up there old hunter-gatherer way of life which by this time was patently unsustainable. That when you chanced to meet any they appeared to be visibly poor duisturbed very few. It was presumed by most white Australians that it must be because they had not put the effort into bettering themselves. At the time we had growing number of foreign immigrants in our midst: not just the hard working Dutch and Germans but even from backward regions of Mediterranean like southern Italy and Greece (though they were few in number at the time Sertorio we did not even distain letting Portuguese into our country as settlers :) ). We observed how even wogs from these above mentioned moribund Mediterranean backwaters could arrive not even able to speak a word of English yet in most cases still ended up doing rather well for themselves. As exemplified by the foreign immigrants Australia was/is clearly a land of opportunity for all so no excuse for Australian aboriginals not doing better.

Very likely in Canada prevailing opinions in society like official native policy would have been the same there as in Australia.
The schools started in the 1800s. That was a time when Canada was still poor and people were also ignorant of matters of hygiene. For comparison sake, let me look at child mortality in the 1800s.

I can't find any numbers for Canada. But I found data for the US. Canadian statistics should be comparable.

In 1850, the child mortality was about 40%. This means that 40% of kids did not make it to their 5th birthday. So the number who did not make it to adulthood should be even higher. So what do you expect? Could their genetic parents do any better? Without modern medicines and hospitals, I don't think so.

Let's see if we have any data on the remaining primitive people in the world. Even during the 1970s in Brazil, the primitive people of the Amazon have a short life span because many people don't even make it to adulthood.

Excerpt:
Neel and Weiss (1975) calculated a general fertility rate of .250 for the Yanomámá with a Net Reproduction Rate of 1.25. Yanomámá women complete a pregnancy every 3-4 years, with 85% of the births resulting in a live birth. The authors estimated annual population growth rates at between 0.5 and 1.0%. 50% of the women who reach age 15 die before menopause. Childhood mortality rates have dropped considerably, but overall combined infant and child mortality, including infanticide, stood at about 50% at the time of the report.
So about half or more did not reach adulthood. There is mention of infanticide. This seems common in primitive societies. Even the Romans practiced it. It was the only birth control method they knew. So it is not a surprise to me that when the Canadian Indian schools started in 1850, the native people also practiced infanticide simply because they were unable to feed their babies and they would have died anyway. Its a harsh life that we have forgotten.

So when modern Canadians look back to a more primitive time in their history, they are judging their ancestors by the prosperous standards of today. Add to it the politicians who want to get the votes of the Amerindians and Indian leaders who want to get money for past misdeeds.

..........................................................................................................................

Child Mortality in the past

Here is the money quote:
Across the entire historical sample the authors found that on average, 26.9% of newborns died in their first year of life and 46.2% died before they reached adulthood. Two estimates that are easy to remember: Around a quarter died in the first year of life. Around half died as children.

What is striking about the historical estimates is how similar the mortality rates for children were across this very wide range of 43 historical cultures. Whether in Ancient Rome; Ancient Greece; the pre-Columbian Americas; Medieval Japan or Medieval England; the European Renaissance; or Imperial China: Every fourth newborn died in the first year of life. One out of two died in childhood.
I think a ball park figure is that half of the kids never made it to adulthood. So what is so unusual of a 19th century or early 20th century residential school in Canada having dead children?
The Imp :D

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Sertorio
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Re: Good News from Cuba! [not for Sertorio]

Post by Sertorio » Thu Jul 15, 2021 8:49 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:31 am

You are picking the worst behavior of the British and Americans. What about the institutions of rule of law left behind by the British? What about the Parliamentary system ie democracy. What about the schools like the one I attended set up by a Methodist missionary? It provided quality education. Otherwise, I could not argue so eloquently and successfully with you.
China was civilized when most Europeans were little more than savages, and their institutions were among the most efficient ever. Confucianism was - and is - a lot better than the run of the mill Christianity, its ethics were highly developed, and government following Confucian ideals was fair and just, even if it wasn't "democratic". The mandarinate was a highly efficient school of civil servants, superior to anything Europe had.
cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:31 am
Of course, the colonial war impoverished Portugal. How else do you explain why Portugal became the poorest country in western Europe?
Between 1970 and 1973 Portugal had growth rates of 10% a year. Portugal's poverty had its roots in the early 19th century, when Portugal failed to follow the industrial revolution. In fact, in Portugal the industrial revolution only started in the late 50's of the 20th century, the time when education finally started reaching the whole population. And while we may still be a little under the average for the EU, our level of development is already quite acceptable. All done in a little more than 50 years. The so-called "colonial war" did nothing to slow us down. And I wouldn't trade our quality of life - which cannot be measured only in euros - for that of the US, of the Netherlands (which I know well) or of Singapore...

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Re: Good News from Cuba! [not for Sertorio]

Post by Sertorio » Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:02 am

neverfail wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 5:45 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 3:19 am

Well, in the case of the Catholic schools in Canada, the intention was good and the death of young children was unintentional. The purpose was to bring the kids to modern civilization. I think the Australians had the same idea. The native American Canadians were taught a new language and culture.

It was an attempt to build cultural capital. Let's face it. The natives were rather primitive. Leaving to their parents to bring them up will not bring them to the modern world. They need new attitudes and modes of thinking from that of their parents'. Unfortunately, many died. Lack of resources to care for them led to their deaths. It was not out of hatred or anger but despite good intentions. Who knows? If left to their parents perhaps as many would also have died. How many kids in primitive people survived to adulthood anyway? Any data from say the Amazonian tribes? Or how about the Australian abbos of long ago living the traditional lifestyle as hunter gatherers?
Cassowary, I want to thank you for that note.

The news media coverage here (most likely in Canada and elsewhere too) has deliberately left you with the impression that the hundreds of bodies found in those graves were the victims of mass murder perpetrated by the Catholic nuns who were supposed to have been their carers. More likely it was (as you allege) due to lack of adequate resources.

The pity about it was that the parents did not voluntarily send their kids to these boarding schools: they were compulsorily removed by the state as a matter of policy.

Institutional care is never a replacement for maternal and paternal love by the genetic parents. It is always cold and impersonal. Some native people (I know this from some tragic cases among Australian aboriginals) when seperated from their kin and community simply give up the will to live.

We know all of this now: we did not know about it while it was taking place.

Abuses of children in institution care was in those days not talked about or publicised in the media. As for the authorities in charge these were given the benefit of the doubt and trusted to be doing the right thing. One never heard of abuse of children in institutionalised care in those days.

In the 1950's when I was in our formative years we rarely thought about the Australian Aboriginals but on the occasions when we did we (the general public I mean) assumed that these would eventually adopt our way of life holus bolus. And why not? Our civilisation and way of life was seen at the time (not without reason) to be the best one ever invented in the entire history (and prehistory) of mankind - so we were doing our indigenous countrymen a favour by inviting them to join us.

Most aboriginals by the 1950's had given up there old hunter-gatherer way of life which by this time was patently unsustainable. That when you chanced to meet any they appeared to be visibly poor duisturbed very few. It was presumed by most white Australians that it must be because they had not put the effort into bettering themselves. At the time we had growing number of foreign immigrants in our midst: not just the hard working Dutch and Germans but even from backward regions of Mediterranean like southern Italy and Greece (though they were few in number at the time Sertorio we did not even distain letting Portuguese into our country as settlers :) ). We observed how even wogs from these above mentioned moribund Mediterranean backwaters could arrive not even able to speak a word of English yet in most cases still ended up doing rather well for themselves. As exemplified by the foreign immigrants Australia was/is clearly a land of opportunity for all so no excuse for Australian aboriginals not doing better.

Very likely in Canada prevailing opinions in society like official native policy would have been the same there as in Australia.
Trying to justify colonial methods doesn't make them any better. But it is surprising that in 2021 you still make the effort to try and excuse the brutality and lack of humanity of the settlers in respect of the people they came to oppress. It doesn't even cross your mind that the natives could be happier living in their ancestral ways rather than adopting our aggressive posture, and that enough room (territory) should have been left them to continue living as they wished, for as long as they wished. They were savages and they had to be "civilized" and converted to our distorted faiths...At any cost...

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Re: Good News from Cuba! [not for Sertorio]

Post by neverfail » Thu Jul 15, 2021 5:23 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 9:02 am

Trying to justify colonial methods doesn't make them any better. But it is surprising that in 2021 you still make the effort to try and excuse the brutality and lack of humanity of the settlers in respect of the people they came to oppress.
These days we don't - so you can get down off your judgementasl high horse now.

{quote]It doesn't even cross your mind that the natives could be happier living in their ancestral ways rather than adopting our aggressive posture, and that enough room (territory) should have been left them to continue living as they wished, for as long as they wished.
[/quote]

Oh come on, get real! If the British had not colonised Australia do you believe that other ambitious, energetic empire building nations of the time would not have moved in to the Australian power vacumn and done it in their place? One thing about which I am absolutely certain is that the Australian aboriginals and their accustomed way of life were both doomed.

History does not permit the maintenance of human, cultural and spiritual equivalent to Jurassic Park.

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