Evolution and Mankind's Destiny

Discussion of current events
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Sertorio
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Re: what is the use?

Post by Sertorio » Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:57 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:19 pm
This discussion is pointless!

Even if the case for the further evolution of our human species as promoted by Sertorio is valid, evolution normally takes place so slowly that none of us will be around to see it happen.
We don't have to see it happen, we just need to make sure it happens, for the benefit of our far future offspring...

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dagbay
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Re: Evolution and Mankind's Destiny

Post by dagbay » Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:07 am

First let me commend Sertorio for bringing up this thought provoking philosophical topic.

Clearly evolution in the biological sense is a process the rewards short generation species. However if one includes artificial evolution and technological integration it is conceivable that the process of evolution as in introduction of new traits can be expanded substantially. It might be possible to conceive of aN artificial random mutation process not much different than modern pharmaceutical drug development where the exact result (best drug or cocktail thereof) is directed but not prescribed by the developers. The randomness can be used to test for benefits in 'laboratory'. Further e nvisioning a possibility of a pallet of mods people may combine a few to yield unexpected (good or bad) interactions.
If we allow artificial augmentation as made possible by technology of the future there will be no real end to evolution even if it is not passed on to offspring in the biological sense.

I admit the this future looks foreign and scary but it is happening as we are discussing it.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

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Sertorio
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Re: Evolution and Mankind's Destiny

Post by Sertorio » Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:22 am

dagbay wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:07 am
First let me commend Sertorio for bringing up this thought provoking philosophical topic.

Clearly evolution in the biological sense is a process the rewards short generation species. However if one includes artificial evolution and technological integration it is conceivable that the process of evolution as in introduction of new traits can be expanded substantially. It might be possible to conceive of aN artificial random mutation process not much different than modern pharmaceutical drug development where the exact result (best drug or cocktail thereof) is directed but not prescribed by the developers. The randomness can be used to test for benefits in 'laboratory'. Further e nvisioning a possibility of a pallet of mods people may combine a few to yield unexpected (good or bad) interactions.
If we allow artificial augmentation as made possible by technology of the future there will be no real end to evolution even if it is not passed on to offspring in the biological sense.

I admit the this future looks foreign and scary but it is happening as we are discussing it.
Thank you Dagbay. What scares me is the possibility of genetic engineering not only provoking real aberrations but also stiffling the random processes that may lead to positive evolution. By trying to impose an artificial evolution based on our (twisted) concepts of what would be good, we may prevent evolution from following its natural path. And by doing so we may lose our place in the future of the Universe.

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dagbay
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Re: Evolution and Mankind's Destiny

Post by dagbay » Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:07 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:22 am
dagbay wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:07 am
First let me commend Sertorio for bringing up this thought provoking philosophical topic.

Clearly evolution in the biological sense is a process the rewards short generation species. However if one includes artificial evolution and technological integration it is conceivable that the process of evolution as in introduction of new traits can be expanded substantially. It might be possible to conceive of aN artificial random mutation process not much different than modern pharmaceutical drug development where the exact result (best drug or cocktail thereof) is directed but not prescribed by the developers. The randomness can be used to test for benefits in 'laboratory'. Further e nvisioning a possibility of a pallet of mods people may combine a few to yield unexpected (good or bad) interactions.
If we allow artificial augmentation as made possible by technology of the future there will be no real end to evolution even if it is not passed on to offspring in the biological sense.

I admit the this future looks foreign and scary but it is happening as we are discussing it.
Thank you Dagbay. What scares me is the possibility of genetic engineering not only provoking real aberrations but also stiffling the random processes that may lead to positive evolution. By trying to impose an artificial evolution based on our (twisted) concepts of what would be good, we may prevent evolution from following its natural path. And by doing so we may lose our place in the future of the Universe.
Your concerns are well founded in that history does bear witness to our race's misguided decisions. The problems of artificial 'evolution' is not that it will stifle natural evolution but that it outpaces it. If artificial evolution has a generation span of decades many of its generations will transpire before a single cycle of natural evolution is completed.
Many scenarios that were proposed discussed possible evils of human directed evolution including compounded susceptibility to new or old desease agents.
On the other hand we should not underestimate human ingenuity given the chance to mount a defense.
Finally it is impossible to stop this process for advancement. One will always find some nation in which one could get sufficient conditions to proceed with artificial evolution.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

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Sertorio
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Re: Evolution and Mankind's Destiny

Post by Sertorio » Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:07 am

dagbay wrote:
Thu Nov 23, 2017 6:07 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:22 am
dagbay wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 2:07 am
First let me commend Sertorio for bringing up this thought provoking philosophical topic.

Clearly evolution in the biological sense is a process the rewards short generation species. However if one includes artificial evolution and technological integration it is conceivable that the process of evolution as in introduction of new traits can be expanded substantially. It might be possible to conceive of aN artificial random mutation process not much different than modern pharmaceutical drug development where the exact result (best drug or cocktail thereof) is directed but not prescribed by the developers. The randomness can be used to test for benefits in 'laboratory'. Further e nvisioning a possibility of a pallet of mods people may combine a few to yield unexpected (good or bad) interactions.
If we allow artificial augmentation as made possible by technology of the future there will be no real end to evolution even if it is not passed on to offspring in the biological sense.

I admit the this future looks foreign and scary but it is happening as we are discussing it.
Thank you Dagbay. What scares me is the possibility of genetic engineering not only provoking real aberrations but also stiffling the random processes that may lead to positive evolution. By trying to impose an artificial evolution based on our (twisted) concepts of what would be good, we may prevent evolution from following its natural path. And by doing so we may lose our place in the future of the Universe.
Your concerns are well founded in that history does bear witness to our race's misguided decisions. The problems of artificial 'evolution' is not that it will stifle natural evolution but that it outpaces it. If artificial evolution has a generation span of decades many of its generations will transpire before a single cycle of natural evolution is completed.
Many scenarios that were proposed discussed possible evils of human directed evolution including compounded susceptibility to new or old desease agents.
On the other hand we should not underestimate human ingenuity given the chance to mount a defense.
Finally it is impossible to stop this process for advancement. One will always find some nation in which one could get sufficient conditions to proceed with artificial evolution.
Genetic engineering should be exclusively directed at curing/preventing some nasty diseases on individuals. Any temptation to artificially "improve" our species should be avoided at all costs. Like you, I am quite sure that we would come to regret the introduction of some of those "improvements"... Nature has shown its ability to promote positive evolution, so that we should leave that task to it. Besides, I am quite sure that evolution for us will be mostly seen at the brain/mental level, and we haven't a clue about the direction it will take, so that any genetic messing would be a Russian roulette genetic game...

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Evolution and Mankind's Destiny

Post by SteveFoerster » Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:39 am

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:07 am
Genetic engineering should be exclusively directed at curing/preventing some nasty diseases on individuals. Any temptation to artificially "improve" our species should be avoided at all costs. Like you, I am quite sure that we would come to regret the introduction of some of those "improvements"... Nature has shown its ability to promote positive evolution, so that we should leave that task to it. Besides, I am quite sure that evolution for us will be mostly seen at the brain/mental level, and we haven't a clue about the direction it will take, so that any genetic messing would be a Russian roulette genetic game...
Maybe so. But ultimately it doesn't matter, since such changes will happen whether or not they turn out to be what today's humans would consider a good idea....

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dagbay
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Re: Evolution and Mankind's Destiny

Post by dagbay » Sat Nov 25, 2017 12:29 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 10:39 am
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:07 am
Genetic engineering should be exclusively directed at curing/preventing some nasty diseases on individuals. Any temptation to artificially "improve" our species should be avoided at all costs. Like you, I am quite sure that we would come to regret the introduction of some of those "improvements"... Nature has shown its ability to promote positive evolution, so that we should leave that task to it. Besides, I am quite sure that evolution for us will be mostly seen at the brain/mental level, and we haven't a clue about the direction it will take, so that any genetic messing would be a Russian roulette genetic game...
Maybe so. But ultimately it doesn't matter, since such changes will happen whether or not they turn out to be what today's humans would consider a good idea....
Agreed, as futurists predict many of th genetic and technological augmentation will be first introduced to combat or correct human maladies. Once they become available and safe others will seak to "improve" themselves as well. Case in point the growing use of drugs ment to help ADD patients by med students and others to improve study time quality for exams.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

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Sertorio
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Re: Evolution and Mankind's Destiny

Post by Sertorio » Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:25 pm

Has anyone watched the movie Morgan http://www.imdb.com/title/tt4520364/?

It tells of a genetically engineered girl, created in an effort to improve the human race, but who has to be destroyed as a result of serious behavioural problems.

It has a lot to do with my concerns in respect of Man wanting to improve the species and ending up by producing a disaster. My point is that evolution is something which happens spontaneously, and that Man cannot replace such a natural evolution, as we haven't the slightest idea of what would be a positive evolution and are more likely to produce monsters. On the physical side there is probably little room for evolution, which will have a lot more to do with our brain and consciousness, areas the understanding of which are out of reach for us.

For the religious ones among you, I remind you of the reason why God expelled Adam and Eve from Paradise. It wasn't the fact that they had eaten the fruit from the tree of knowledge, it was to prevent them from eating from the tree of life. In other words, to prevent them from learning about genetic engineering... God knew that we are structurally incapable of properly using such tools, and should forever be kept away from them. Only Nature can lead us to a beneficial evolution, which is well beyond our understanding. Not knowing the path evolution will follow, we cannot engineer it, no matter how much we learn about our DNA.

But I'm afraid this will not prevent Man trying it, and having afterwards to endure the disastrous results thereof...

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SteveFoerster
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Re: Evolution and Mankind's Destiny

Post by SteveFoerster » Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:16 am

It's a good thing Norman Borlaug didn't feel that way.
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Sertorio
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Re: Evolution and Mankind's Destiny

Post by Sertorio » Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:24 am

SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:16 am
It's a good thing Norman Borlaug didn't feel that way.
I'm talking about the human species, not about plants and agriculture. Do you agree there is a difference?... :roll:

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