Belarus and Austria: a Tale of Two Countries

Discussion of current events
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Milo
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Re: Belarus and Austria: a Tale of Two Countries

Post by Milo » Wed May 26, 2021 7:55 am

Sertorio wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 7:19 am
Milo wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 6:50 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 2:43 am
Milo wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 6:58 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 2:46 pm
Milo wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 11:38 am

The Austrian President bought Morales breakfast, apologized and then Morales went on his way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evo_Moral ... g_incident

We don’t even know where Protasevich is and there is no warrant justifying his detention.
There is no apology sufficient for grounding the Presidential airplane of a sovereign nation, in order to search it for someone the US wants to get its hands on. A national airplane carrying the head of state of that nation benefits from extraterritorial status and could not be forced to land. There is no excuse for violating such principle.
Prove that.
You may want to read the following:
Extraterritoriality, also called exterritoriality, or diplomatic immunity, in international law, the immunities enjoyed by foreign states or international organizations and their official representatives from the jurisdiction of the country in which they are present. Extraterritoriality extends to foreign states or international organizations as entities and to their heads, legations, troops in passage, war vessels, mission premises, and other assets. It exempts them, while within the territory of a foreign sovereign, from local judicial process, police interference, and other measures of constraint.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/extraterritoriality
It seems clear to me that forcing Evo Morales plane to land in Austria was a clear violation of this principle. But you, as a lawyer, will have a different view...
As NF points out there was no forced landing.

Extraterritoriality has nothing to do with a plane's flight plan.

But that, of course, is your propagandist attempt to distract from this present day act of air piracy.
Do you believe any plane would take off without a flight plan? It was after the Evo Morales plane had taken off that some countries forbade the plane overflying them. And if the problem had been a lack of a flight plan, why was the plane forced to land in Vienna rather than returning to the country from where it had departed? And what aspect of lacking a flight plan would justify searching the aircraft for Edward Snowden? You are, once more, thinking I am stupid, or else you are just being insulting...
Well, if you favour detention of journalists without showing cause…

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Sertorio
Posts: 5122
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Belarus and Austria: a Tale of Two Countries

Post by Sertorio » Wed May 26, 2021 8:21 am

Milo wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 7:55 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 7:19 am
Milo wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 6:50 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 2:43 am
Milo wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 6:58 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 2:46 pm


There is no apology sufficient for grounding the Presidential airplane of a sovereign nation, in order to search it for someone the US wants to get its hands on. A national airplane carrying the head of state of that nation benefits from extraterritorial status and could not be forced to land. There is no excuse for violating such principle.
Prove that.
You may want to read the following:
Extraterritoriality, also called exterritoriality, or diplomatic immunity, in international law, the immunities enjoyed by foreign states or international organizations and their official representatives from the jurisdiction of the country in which they are present. Extraterritoriality extends to foreign states or international organizations as entities and to their heads, legations, troops in passage, war vessels, mission premises, and other assets. It exempts them, while within the territory of a foreign sovereign, from local judicial process, police interference, and other measures of constraint.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/extraterritoriality
It seems clear to me that forcing Evo Morales plane to land in Austria was a clear violation of this principle. But you, as a lawyer, will have a different view...
As NF points out there was no forced landing.

Extraterritoriality has nothing to do with a plane's flight plan.

But that, of course, is your propagandist attempt to distract from this present day act of air piracy.
Do you believe any plane would take off without a flight plan? It was after the Evo Morales plane had taken off that some countries forbade the plane overflying them. And if the problem had been a lack of a flight plan, why was the plane forced to land in Vienna rather than returning to the country from where it had departed? And what aspect of lacking a flight plan would justify searching the aircraft for Edward Snowden? You are, once more, thinking I am stupid, or else you are just being insulting...
Well, if you favour detention of journalists without showing cause…
Protasevich has been accused of several crimes in Belarus. Whether he is guilty or not is up to the courts. All we may ask is that he has a fair trial. His having been caught when the Ryanair plane had to land in Minsk was unfortunate for him, but the US would have acted exactly in the same way in respect of Edward Snowden. Or Julian Assange. Neither of whom, by the way, would have had a fair trial.

User avatar
Milo
Posts: 3272
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:14 pm

Re: Belarus and Austria: a Tale of Two Countries

Post by Milo » Wed May 26, 2021 9:11 am

Sertorio wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 8:21 am
Milo wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 7:55 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 7:19 am
Milo wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 6:50 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 2:43 am
Milo wrote:
Tue May 25, 2021 6:58 pm


Prove that.
You may want to read the following:
Extraterritoriality, also called exterritoriality, or diplomatic immunity, in international law, the immunities enjoyed by foreign states or international organizations and their official representatives from the jurisdiction of the country in which they are present. Extraterritoriality extends to foreign states or international organizations as entities and to their heads, legations, troops in passage, war vessels, mission premises, and other assets. It exempts them, while within the territory of a foreign sovereign, from local judicial process, police interference, and other measures of constraint.

https://www.britannica.com/topic/extraterritoriality
It seems clear to me that forcing Evo Morales plane to land in Austria was a clear violation of this principle. But you, as a lawyer, will have a different view...
As NF points out there was no forced landing.

Extraterritoriality has nothing to do with a plane's flight plan.

But that, of course, is your propagandist attempt to distract from this present day act of air piracy.
Do you believe any plane would take off without a flight plan? It was after the Evo Morales plane had taken off that some countries forbade the plane overflying them. And if the problem had been a lack of a flight plan, why was the plane forced to land in Vienna rather than returning to the country from where it had departed? And what aspect of lacking a flight plan would justify searching the aircraft for Edward Snowden? You are, once more, thinking I am stupid, or else you are just being insulting...
Well, if you favour detention of journalists without showing cause…
Protasevich has been accused of several crimes in Belarus. Whether he is guilty or not is up to the courts. All we may ask is that he has a fair trial. His having been caught when the Ryanair plane had to land in Minsk was unfortunate for him, but the US would have acted exactly in the same way in respect of Edward Snowden. Or Julian Assange. Neither of whom, by the way, would have had a fair trial.
And because Belarus has acted this way, a number of sovereign countries chose to sanction it. All we may ask is the sanctions are fair.

User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 5122
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Belarus and Austria: a Tale of Two Countries

Post by Sertorio » Wed May 26, 2021 9:48 am

Milo wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 9:11 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 8:21 am
Milo wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 7:55 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 7:19 am
Milo wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 6:50 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 2:43 am


You may want to read the following:



It seems clear to me that forcing Evo Morales plane to land in Austria was a clear violation of this principle. But you, as a lawyer, will have a different view...
As NF points out there was no forced landing.

Extraterritoriality has nothing to do with a plane's flight plan.

But that, of course, is your propagandist attempt to distract from this present day act of air piracy.
Do you believe any plane would take off without a flight plan? It was after the Evo Morales plane had taken off that some countries forbade the plane overflying them. And if the problem had been a lack of a flight plan, why was the plane forced to land in Vienna rather than returning to the country from where it had departed? And what aspect of lacking a flight plan would justify searching the aircraft for Edward Snowden? You are, once more, thinking I am stupid, or else you are just being insulting...
Well, if you favour detention of journalists without showing cause…
Protasevich has been accused of several crimes in Belarus. Whether he is guilty or not is up to the courts. All we may ask is that he has a fair trial. His having been caught when the Ryanair plane had to land in Minsk was unfortunate for him, but the US would have acted exactly in the same way in respect of Edward Snowden. Or Julian Assange. Neither of whom, by the way, would have had a fair trial.
And because Belarus has acted this way, a number of sovereign countries chose to sanction it. All we may ask is the sanctions are fair.
Sanctions are not a tool of civilized international relations. Diplomacy, dialogue, mutual respect and non-intervention in other countries' internal affairs are. And in case of more serious human rights violations the only body which is empowered to intervene are the UN and its Security Council. Individual countries may only use forceful means in case of aggression by a foreign power and only when the UNSC cannot intervene on time. The systematic recourse to threats and sanctions by the US and the EU are a sign of barbarism and a violation of international law. Which will open the way to armed conflict. That's how WWI started, and that's what will lead to WWIII. Haven't we learned anything in the past one hundred years?...

User avatar
Milo
Posts: 3272
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:14 pm

Re: Belarus and Austria: a Tale of Two Countries

Post by Milo » Wed May 26, 2021 9:55 am

Sertorio wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 9:48 am
Milo wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 9:11 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 8:21 am
Milo wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 7:55 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 7:19 am
Milo wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 6:50 am


As NF points out there was no forced landing.

Extraterritoriality has nothing to do with a plane's flight plan.

But that, of course, is your propagandist attempt to distract from this present day act of air piracy.
Do you believe any plane would take off without a flight plan? It was after the Evo Morales plane had taken off that some countries forbade the plane overflying them. And if the problem had been a lack of a flight plan, why was the plane forced to land in Vienna rather than returning to the country from where it had departed? And what aspect of lacking a flight plan would justify searching the aircraft for Edward Snowden? You are, once more, thinking I am stupid, or else you are just being insulting...
Well, if you favour detention of journalists without showing cause…
Protasevich has been accused of several crimes in Belarus. Whether he is guilty or not is up to the courts. All we may ask is that he has a fair trial. His having been caught when the Ryanair plane had to land in Minsk was unfortunate for him, but the US would have acted exactly in the same way in respect of Edward Snowden. Or Julian Assange. Neither of whom, by the way, would have had a fair trial.
And because Belarus has acted this way, a number of sovereign countries chose to sanction it. All we may ask is the sanctions are fair.
Sanctions are not a tool of civilized international relations. Diplomacy, dialogue, mutual respect and non-intervention in other countries' internal affairs are. And in case of more serious human rights violations the only body which is empowered to intervene are the UN and its Security Council. Individual countries may only use forceful means in case of aggression by a foreign power and only when the UNSC cannot intervene on time. The systematic recourse to threats and sanctions by the US and the EU are a sign of barbarism and a violation of international law. Which will open the way to armed conflict. That's how WWI started, and that's what will lead to WWIII. Haven't we learned anything in the past one hundred years?...
So when is Pratasevich’s bail hearing?

User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 5122
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Belarus and Austria: a Tale of Two Countries

Post by Sertorio » Wed May 26, 2021 10:14 am

Milo wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 9:55 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 9:48 am
Milo wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 9:11 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 8:21 am
Milo wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 7:55 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed May 26, 2021 7:19 am


Do you believe any plane would take off without a flight plan? It was after the Evo Morales plane had taken off that some countries forbade the plane overflying them. And if the problem had been a lack of a flight plan, why was the plane forced to land in Vienna rather than returning to the country from where it had departed? And what aspect of lacking a flight plan would justify searching the aircraft for Edward Snowden? You are, once more, thinking I am stupid, or else you are just being insulting...
Well, if you favour detention of journalists without showing cause…
Protasevich has been accused of several crimes in Belarus. Whether he is guilty or not is up to the courts. All we may ask is that he has a fair trial. His having been caught when the Ryanair plane had to land in Minsk was unfortunate for him, but the US would have acted exactly in the same way in respect of Edward Snowden. Or Julian Assange. Neither of whom, by the way, would have had a fair trial.
And because Belarus has acted this way, a number of sovereign countries chose to sanction it. All we may ask is the sanctions are fair.
Sanctions are not a tool of civilized international relations. Diplomacy, dialogue, mutual respect and non-intervention in other countries' internal affairs are. And in case of more serious human rights violations the only body which is empowered to intervene are the UN and its Security Council. Individual countries may only use forceful means in case of aggression by a foreign power and only when the UNSC cannot intervene on time. The systematic recourse to threats and sanctions by the US and the EU are a sign of barbarism and a violation of international law. Which will open the way to armed conflict. That's how WWI started, and that's what will lead to WWIII. Haven't we learned anything in the past one hundred years?...
So when is Pratasevich’s bail hearing?
You are the lawyer, you find out...

User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 5122
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Belarus and Austria: a Tale of Two Countries

Post by Sertorio » Fri May 28, 2021 2:36 am

The cover page of an Ukrainian neo-nazi magazine, showing a picture of the Belarussian "journalist" Protasevich in journalist's working clothes ( :o )...


Image

But the idiots in Western countries only see what they want to see...

User avatar
Milo
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Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:14 pm

Re: Belarus and Austria: a Tale of Two Countries

Post by Milo » Fri May 28, 2021 8:19 am

Sertorio wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 2:36 am
The cover page of an Ukrainian neo-nazi magazine, showing a picture of the Belarussian "journalist" Protasevich in journalist's working clothes ( :o )...


Image

But the idiots in Western countries only see what they want to see...
Well, you supposedly live in a Western country.
Then, Bellingcat researcher Oleksiy Kuzmenko found somewhere in Telegram a cover for Azov Black Sun magazine which shows a young man in a uniform with a combat weapon with suggestions that it is Protasevich.
It was posted on a small Telegram channel whose administrator is allegedly a former anarchist and a dishonest drug dealer from Azov circles who moved out of Ukraine, fearing consequences for his frauds. Also, he allegedly spreads rumors that Azov leaders attend a synagogue. Not the most reliable source in the world, I guess. A good example of why local expertise from the ground matters for correctly interpreting materials found in open sources!
http://euromaidanpress.com/2021/05/26/p ... -neo-nazi/

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Sertorio
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Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: Belarus and Austria: a Tale of Two Countries

Post by Sertorio » Fri May 28, 2021 9:45 am

Milo wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 8:19 am
Sertorio wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 2:36 am
The cover page of an Ukrainian neo-nazi magazine, showing a picture of the Belarussian "journalist" Protasevich in journalist's working clothes ( :o )...


Image

But the idiots in Western countries only see what they want to see...
Well, you supposedly live in a Western country.
Then, Bellingcat researcher Oleksiy Kuzmenko found somewhere in Telegram a cover for Azov Black Sun magazine which shows a young man in a uniform with a combat weapon with suggestions that it is Protasevich.
It was posted on a small Telegram channel whose administrator is allegedly a former anarchist and a dishonest drug dealer from Azov circles who moved out of Ukraine, fearing consequences for his frauds. Also, he allegedly spreads rumors that Azov leaders attend a synagogue. Not the most reliable source in the world, I guess. A good example of why local expertise from the ground matters for correctly interpreting materials found in open sources!
http://euromaidanpress.com/2021/05/26/p ... -neo-nazi/
Image
Protasevich lined up with the Azov regiment in Ukraine

Protasevich on the back row, between the two taller guys on the front row.

https://tiranapost.net/lajme-nga-bota/g ... fo-i498425

Image


ASB News / MILITARYPart alternation mark
@ASBMilitary
· 9h
Belarusian “journalist” Roman Protasevich serving with Nazi Azov battalion in 2014 - proudly sporting the Nazi Azov insignia on his arm, in addition to the photo posted above, if it wasn’t enough. #belarus #RomanProtasevich

But for Milo these are all fake photos...And Bellingcat is a most reliable source... :D

User avatar
Milo
Posts: 3272
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:14 pm

Re: Belarus and Austria: a Tale of Two Countries

Post by Milo » Fri May 28, 2021 10:17 am

Sertorio wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 9:45 am
Milo wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 8:19 am
Sertorio wrote:
Fri May 28, 2021 2:36 am
The cover page of an Ukrainian neo-nazi magazine, showing a picture of the Belarussian "journalist" Protasevich in journalist's working clothes ( :o )...


Image

But the idiots in Western countries only see what they want to see...
Well, you supposedly live in a Western country.
Then, Bellingcat researcher Oleksiy Kuzmenko found somewhere in Telegram a cover for Azov Black Sun magazine which shows a young man in a uniform with a combat weapon with suggestions that it is Protasevich.
It was posted on a small Telegram channel whose administrator is allegedly a former anarchist and a dishonest drug dealer from Azov circles who moved out of Ukraine, fearing consequences for his frauds. Also, he allegedly spreads rumors that Azov leaders attend a synagogue. Not the most reliable source in the world, I guess. A good example of why local expertise from the ground matters for correctly interpreting materials found in open sources!
http://euromaidanpress.com/2021/05/26/p ... -neo-nazi/
Image
Protasevich lined up with the Azov regiment in Ukraine

Protasevich on the back row, between the two taller guys on the front row.

https://tiranapost.net/lajme-nga-bota/g ... fo-i498425

Image


ASB News / MILITARYPart alternation mark
@ASBMilitary
· 9h
Belarusian “journalist” Roman Protasevich serving with Nazi Azov battalion in 2014 - proudly sporting the Nazi Azov insignia on his arm, in addition to the photo posted above, if it wasn’t enough. #belarus #RomanProtasevich

But for Milo these are all fake photos...And Bellingcat is a most reliable source... :D
The Azov regiment is part of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, so even if he served in it, it proves nothing else.

Same source as before.

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