Syria and the West

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Re: Syria and the West

Post by Milo » Tue May 04, 2021 9:27 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 4:59 pm
Thanks Ellen. As usual I found your post highly informative; illuminating to read.

Ellen wrote:
Mon May 03, 2021 12:05 am
"Regardless of whether the Gulf Emirates are politically "fossilised" or not, would you not agree with Dagbay and concede that these are in a far happier sitate than the likes of Syria and iraq?"

Nonetheless, the UAE has the same demographic problems that any tribal political entity will have once its population growth rate drops to near European levels, combined with unearned prosperity from a single commodity. How do you develop a country in a safe and sustainable way with a citizen population below one million, that is not fated to be much more than 1.3 mllion or so at its maximum level 20 years from now? How will the UAE ever build a diversified economy that isn't reliant on expats who are basically treated as servants?

You can't. Yet I would like to point out that even without taking into account the UAE's poor human capital base they would have more of a handicap than Israel in developing a "diversified" economy not reliant on a single gift of nature like oil. For one thing a dry, dusty desert climate imposes physical limitations against agriculture being a successful enterprise. Terrestially small and modestly endowed with natural respources it might be Israel is still several times better off than the Gulf Emirates in terms of its (non-oil) natural endowment.
How will they build a real army to defend their patrimony, not one led by an Australian mercenary, who could - in a flash - return to a truly stable and happy country like Australia? Why shoud any Aussie want to sacrifice his life for a tin pot potentate who runs these little, ridiculous Emirates?
When the Australian returns home substitute an Israeli ex-army officer. Like our Australian armed forces your Israeli armed forces have over the years earned something of a reputation for battlefield gallantry; so an Israeli ex-army officer would appear to be a good substitute. :D
This is the real and difficult-to-solve dilemma of happy clappy states like the UAE. They are now talking about giving green cards to valuable workers (like Indian IT specialists and Lebanese entrepreneurs) and POSSIBLY someday allowing them to get citizenship.
This is something not infrequently overlooked. While they may claim to be heirs to an ancient legacy which includes the right to occupy the land of Israel (the connecting link being the Jewish religion) a typical Israeli Jewish family would only have (as of now) lived contiguously in Israel for one, two or at most three generations. That is a characteristic that Israel seems to share with the likes of the USA, Canada and Australia: in my books it makes Israel an historically young society of immigrants. This type of nation is usually quite energetic, go-ahead places having wholly or partly dispensed with traditions from the older "lands of ancient tradition" from whence their ancesteral immigrant populations first originated. I am inclined to attribute Israeli's much noted energy and success as much to that as to any other factor.

There are traditions that can help move a people forward and others that can hold them back. As you and others have been at pains to point out those of the Arabs seem predominantly of the sort that hold back progress.
I understand this problem very well, because Israel is also - in a sense - a tribal state that at its birth had a Jewish population of 650,000 only, surrounded by 50 million Arabs wanting to push it into the sea. How did Israel solve this problem without detribalizing itself to any significant degree, or absorbing a large Arab population that immediately turns the state into an Arab state, not a Jewish one? By mass immigration of Jews from Holocaust survivors, refugees from the Arab world, and immigrants from Western and other states who were drawn by Zionism. All of this combined with a high fertility rate. Today Israel has a Jewish population of 7 million and is as tribal as it was 73 years ago.
See what I mean by Israel as an immigrant society? :D

I find Judism a curious monotheist (faith? movement?) in this regard. The two other monotheist creeds, Christianity and Islam, both of which ultimately have their respective roots in Judism are both world religions each with over a billion adherents apice. Both have a history of welcoming converts from among non-adherents; even from time to time to the point of "overstepping the mark" and aggressively seeking these out. But not so Judism. There are only about 30 million Jews in the world so you are absolutely right in describing Judism as "tribal".

By that definition; it seems that while Christianity and Islam are both inclusive faiths Judism is exclusive - a religion for the chosen few only.
Islam is inclusive, or else!

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Re: Syria and the West

Post by neverfail » Wed May 05, 2021 2:25 am

Milo wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:27 am
Islam is inclusive, or else!
Even with us religious tolerance is historically a recently acquired taste.

Jim the Moron
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Re: Syria and the West

Post by Jim the Moron » Wed May 05, 2021 5:36 am

neverfail wrote:
Wed May 05, 2021 2:25 am
Milo wrote:
Tue May 04, 2021 9:27 am
Islam is inclusive, or else!
Even with us religious tolerance is historically a recently acquired taste.

Too bad there are savage Islamic clerics, for centuries, out there egging on their all-too-receptive Muslim mouth-breathing followers to attack non-Muslim folks. Its been some years since so-called Christians lopped off heads of Protestants by Catholics and vice versa, and gassed Jewish folks. But not to worry - primitive Muslims are happily taking up the cudgels.

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