18 million infected in India. People dying at the gates of hospital

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Sertorio
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Re: 18 million infected in India. People dying at the gates of hospital

Post by Sertorio » Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:04 am

Doc wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:51 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:25 am
neverfail wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:41 pm
Doc wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:27 pm
neverfail wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:22 pm
Don't worry about it Doc.. According to Hindu belief they will be all reincarnated into another life anyhow.
According to their beliefs, Jews murdered by the Nazis went to heaven.
Really? I did not think that Hindu's believed in an afterlife in heaven but of perpetual reincarnations into higher or lower states of being depending on the type of accumulated karma (merit? grace?) on the soul over the present and past successive lifespans.
The eternal inability of most human beings accepting death for what it is - a necessary episode for evolution...
DO you know Sertorio that there is no arrow of time? That implies that time does not exist as we perceive it. Once you are gone the time you existed and your existence itself still exists. At least for as long as the universe exists, you still exist in time. It could be part of religion or not. The physics does not say either way.
To me that's nonsense, but I am no physicist...

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Doc
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Re: 18 million infected in India. People dying at the gates of hospital

Post by Doc » Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:03 am

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:04 am
Doc wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:51 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:25 am
neverfail wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:41 pm
Doc wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:27 pm
neverfail wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:22 pm
Don't worry about it Doc.. According to Hindu belief they will be all reincarnated into another life anyhow.
According to their beliefs, Jews murdered by the Nazis went to heaven.
Really? I did not think that Hindu's believed in an afterlife in heaven but of perpetual reincarnations into higher or lower states of being depending on the type of accumulated karma (merit? grace?) on the soul over the present and past successive lifespans.
The eternal inability of most human beings accepting death for what it is - a necessary episode for evolution...
DO you know Sertorio that there is no arrow of time? That implies that time does not exist as we perceive it. Once you are gone the time you existed and your existence itself still exists. At least for as long as the universe exists, you still exist in time. It could be part of religion or not. The physics does not say either way.
To me that's nonsense, but I am no physicist...
No one really understands it. But time does not exist was we understand it. WHen you walk down a path, the path is still there, after you pass, at all points that you passed.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Sertorio
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Re: 18 million infected in India. People dying at the gates of hospital

Post by Sertorio » Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:55 am

Doc wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:03 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:04 am
Doc wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:51 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:25 am
neverfail wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:41 pm
Doc wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:27 pm


According to their beliefs, Jews murdered by the Nazis went to heaven.
Really? I did not think that Hindu's believed in an afterlife in heaven but of perpetual reincarnations into higher or lower states of being depending on the type of accumulated karma (merit? grace?) on the soul over the present and past successive lifespans.
The eternal inability of most human beings accepting death for what it is - a necessary episode for evolution...
DO you know Sertorio that there is no arrow of time? That implies that time does not exist as we perceive it. Once you are gone the time you existed and your existence itself still exists. At least for as long as the universe exists, you still exist in time. It could be part of religion or not. The physics does not say either way.
To me that's nonsense, but I am no physicist...
No one really understands it. But time does not exist was we understand it. WHen you walk down a path, the path is still there, after you pass, at all points that you passed.
Not "the" path, but "a" path which looks a bit like the other one. Meanwhile atoms and molecules will have shifted, the wind or rain will have changed its shape, a person may have dug a hole on it... So the original path is no longer there... You are being fooled by appearances... :P

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Doc
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Re: 18 million infected in India. People dying at the gates of hospital

Post by Doc » Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:16 am

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:55 am
Doc wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:03 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 8:04 am
Doc wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:51 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:25 am
neverfail wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:41 pm


Really? I did not think that Hindu's believed in an afterlife in heaven but of perpetual reincarnations into higher or lower states of being depending on the type of accumulated karma (merit? grace?) on the soul over the present and past successive lifespans.
The eternal inability of most human beings accepting death for what it is - a necessary episode for evolution...
DO you know Sertorio that there is no arrow of time? That implies that time does not exist as we perceive it. Once you are gone the time you existed and your existence itself still exists. At least for as long as the universe exists, you still exist in time. It could be part of religion or not. The physics does not say either way.
To me that's nonsense, but I am no physicist...
No one really understands it. But time does not exist was we understand it. WHen you walk down a path, the path is still there, after you pass, at all points that you passed.
Not "the" path, but "a" path which looks a bit like the other one. Meanwhile atoms and molecules will have shifted, the wind or rain will have changed its shape, a person may have dug a hole on it... So the original path is no longer there... You are being fooled by appearances... :P
It is a analogue. But time will tell. :P
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

neverfail
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Location: Singapore

Re: 18 million infected in India. People dying at the gates of hospital

Post by neverfail » Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:52 pm

cassowary wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:11 pm
Social Distancing - an Indian nightmare
India’s staggering population density doesn’t help either. About 455 people are packed into every square kilometer, according to World Bank data. Compare this to 148 in China, the world’s most populous nation. According to the 2011 census, the Gandhi Nagar subdistrict of Delhi has a population density of 89,185 people per square kilometer.
That does not help. But Singapore is also densely populated at 7,800 per square kilometre. Yet, Singapore is the best place to be for Covid19. Its the culture.
I am not dismissing your point that it is about the prevailing culture as I agree with you on that count. Yet I am not satisfied with it as I believe that it does not tell the entire story.

Without decent leadership any people can behave like a rabble. It could not have helped that, as in Brazil now and in the USA pre-Biden you have an uncaring national "leader" :roll: in Modi who did not take the pandemic seriously until it was too late.

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cassowary
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Re: 18 million infected in India. People dying at the gates of hospital

Post by cassowary » Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:52 pm

neverfail wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:52 pm
cassowary wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:11 pm
Social Distancing - an Indian nightmare
India’s staggering population density doesn’t help either. About 455 people are packed into every square kilometer, according to World Bank data. Compare this to 148 in China, the world’s most populous nation. According to the 2011 census, the Gandhi Nagar subdistrict of Delhi has a population density of 89,185 people per square kilometer.
That does not help. But Singapore is also densely populated at 7,800 per square kilometre. Yet, Singapore is the best place to be for Covid19. Its the culture.
I am not dismissing your point that it is about the prevailing culture as I agree with you on that count. Yet I am not satisfied with it as I believe that it does not tell the entire story.

Without decent leadership any people can behave like a rabble. It could not have helped that, as in Brazil now and in the USA pre-Biden you have an uncaring national "leader" :roll: in Modi who did not take the pandemic seriously until it was too late.
I think you just don’t like the leaders and so blame them. Without Trump’s warp speed, I don’t think we can get our vaccines so quickly. You can’t blame Trump or Modi because both India and the US have a federal and state system of government.

Different states have different policies. Cuomo put covid patients in old folks home instead of Trump provided hospital ship and field hospital. De Santis of Florida protected the old folks home but allowed beaches to open.
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Location: Singapore

Re: 18 million infected in India. People dying at the gates of hospital

Post by neverfail » Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:41 pm

cassowary wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:52 pm
neverfail wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:52 pm
cassowary wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:11 pm
Social Distancing - an Indian nightmare
India’s staggering population density doesn’t help either. About 455 people are packed into every square kilometer, according to World Bank data. Compare this to 148 in China, the world’s most populous nation. According to the 2011 census, the Gandhi Nagar subdistrict of Delhi has a population density of 89,185 people per square kilometer.
That does not help. But Singapore is also densely populated at 7,800 per square kilometre. Yet, Singapore is the best place to be for Covid19. Its the culture.
I am not dismissing your point that it is about the prevailing culture as I agree with you on that count. Yet I am not satisfied with it as I believe that it does not tell the entire story.

Without decent leadership any people can behave like a rabble. It could not have helped that, as in Brazil now and in the USA pre-Biden you have an uncaring national "leader" :roll: in Modi who did not take the pandemic seriously until it was too late.
I think you just don’t like the leaders and so blame them.
Nothing to do with privately liking or disliking the political figures so you can remove that red herring from this discussion now. It is you, not I who is in the game of defending these political figures because they purport to be "right wing" - like yourself. It is a matter of assessing their record of failing to organise and prepare their respective countries. Neither Trump nor Bolsario nor Modi convinced themselves nor were they willing to be convinced by the evidence until the epidemic had spread so far that it was beyond control.
Without Trump’s warp speed, I don’t think we can get our vaccines so quickly.
I don't believe that Trump's hectoring from the sidelines speeded up the arrival and release of the vacines. That performance was nought but face saving political PR calculated to permit Trump to claim credit after the event - and it seems that you were one of his willing dupes.
You can’t blame Trump or Modi because both India and the US have a federal and state system of government.


So does my country and in our case where our Federal government was wide awake to the danger posed by Covid from the time the news first arrived of the virus having jumped international borders from its source in China in early 2020 our state and federal governments worked in close collaboration to bring the virus under control.
Different states have different policies. .
Conceded that a federation which comprises 50 member states would be much harder to manage than one like Australia that has but six however Trump made not the slightest attempt to do so. Instead he squandered the opportunity by selectively slagging the states with Democrats state administrations while sparing those with Republican ones the same treatment - thus demonstrating his partisan partiality and with that his unfitness to be a national leader of the United States during a testing time of crisis. In the abscence of leadership coming from Washington DC well of course state governments had to try and fill the void via initiaves of their own - and their uncoordinated efforts I believe were sometimes mutually self-defeating.

(By contrast, the right-of-centre coalition government we have in office at federal level here in Australia abstained from partisanship like that - a majority of our states had Labor governments - and worked copoeratively and well with them for our national good. That vividly illustrates the difference between providing leadership and playing politics.)

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cassowary
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Re: 18 million infected in India. People dying at the gates of hospital

Post by cassowary » Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:55 pm

neverfail wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 4:41 pm
cassowary wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:52 pm
neverfail wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:52 pm
cassowary wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 10:11 pm
Social Distancing - an Indian nightmare
India’s staggering population density doesn’t help either. About 455 people are packed into every square kilometer, according to World Bank data. Compare this to 148 in China, the world’s most populous nation. According to the 2011 census, the Gandhi Nagar subdistrict of Delhi has a population density of 89,185 people per square kilometer.
That does not help. But Singapore is also densely populated at 7,800 per square kilometre. Yet, Singapore is the best place to be for Covid19. Its the culture.
I am not dismissing your point that it is about the prevailing culture as I agree with you on that count. Yet I am not satisfied with it as I believe that it does not tell the entire story.

Without decent leadership any people can behave like a rabble. It could not have helped that, as in Brazil now and in the USA pre-Biden you have an uncaring national "leader" :roll: in Modi who did not take the pandemic seriously until it was too late.
I think you just don’t like the leaders and so blame them.
Nothing to do with privately liking or disliking the political figures so you can remove that red herring from this discussion now. It is you, not I who is in the game of defending these political figures because they purport to be "right wing" - like yourself. It is a matter of assessing their record of failing to organise and prepare their respective countries. Neither Trump nor Bolsario nor Modi convinced themselves nor were they willing to be convinced by the evidence until the epidemic had spread so far that it was beyond control.
Without Trump’s warp speed, I don’t think we can get our vaccines so quickly.
I don't believe that Trump's hectoring from the sidelines speeded up the arrival and release of the vacines. That performance was nought but face saving political PR calculated to permit Trump to claim credit after the event - and it seems that you were one of his willing dupes.
You can’t blame Trump or Modi because both India and the US have a federal and state system of government.


So does my country and in our case where our Federal government was wide awake to the danger posed by Covid from the time the news first arrived of the virus having jumped international borders from its source in China in early 2020 our state and federal governments worked in close collaboration to bring the virus under control.
Different states have different policies. .
Conceded that a federation which comprises 50 member states would be much harder to manage than one like Australia that has but six however Trump made not the slightest attempt to do so. Instead he squandered the opportunity by selectively slagging the states with Democrats state administrations while sparing those with Republican ones the same treatment - thus demonstrating his partisan partiality and with that his unfitness to be a national leader of the United States during a testing time of crisis. In the abscence of leadership coming from Washington DC well of course state governments had to try and fill the void via initiaves of their own - and their uncoordinated efforts I believe were sometimes mutually self-defeating.

(By contrast, the right-of-centre coalition government we have in office at federal level here in Australia abstained from partisanship like that - a majority of our states had Labor governments - and worked copoeratively and well with them for our national good. That vividly illustrates the difference between providing leadership and playing politics.)
You need to read up about Operation Warped Speed, initiated by Trump. You also need to differentiate with what comes out from Trump's mouth with what comes from his pen. Trump says outrageous things but his executive decisions were mostly correct. His decision making skills were honed from years of being a successful businessman.

Excerpt from link:
Operation Warp Speed’s leadership borrowed a more practical model: the industrial mobilization during World War II that produced the so-called Arsenal of Democracy.

That model can still push the vaccine rollout over the finish line. Governors and other state officials in particular need to realize the federal government is operating in the wake of a health-care version of Pearl Harbor, and adjust their operations accordingly.

From the beginning the principal mission of Operation Warp Speed was the development, manufacturing, and distribution—i.e., shipping—of coronavirus vaccines. To date, the program has managed to produce and deliver about 50 million vaccine doses—all made in the U.S.—with hundreds of millions more on the way. It also had 97,000 certified receivers distributing the vaccine across the U.S.

It is the most remarkable achievement in modern medicine, made possible by following the model of the World War II mobilization effort. That model rests on three principles.

First, set a clear target and a firm deadline. Operation Warp Speed’s goal was 20 million vaccine doses by December 2020. Aiming at that target enabled the program’s leaders, Gen. Gustave Perna and Dr. Moncef Slaoui (who resigned last month at the Biden administration’s request but will stay on as a consultant), to focus everyone in Operation Warp Speed on achieving a single result.

Second, mobilize the best pharmaceutical and drug manufacturing companies to hit the target, so that private industry invests its energy and productivity in the plan. During World War II, the big automotive and electrical companies became the driving engine of the mobilization effort, though many had never before produced arms or weapons.


In Operation Warp Speed’s case, the vaccine effort went from a single manufacturing facility in the U.S. to a network of facilities where the country’s drug companies could pool efforts to develop and manufacture vaccines. What traditional health-care experts thought of as a laboratory process became an industrial process—with prodigious results. Companies like FedEx and UPS were pressed into service to deliver the finished product.

Third, maintain government oversight from start to finish. The Commerce, Defense, and Health and Human Services departments invoked the Defense Production Act 18 times to prioritize materials and supplies for Operation Warp Speed, and get government contracts for vaccine development and manufacturing to the head of the line. The use of federal authority to guide but not micromanage the private economy’s efforts was key to producing victory in World War II and to creating the Covid vaccine in record time.

In the U.S. federal system, however, state governments can’t be steamrolled by Washington. The Arsenal of Democracy was able to ship its goods to two all-powerful federal agencies, the War and Navy departments, which knew how to get those weapons to the soldiers, sailors and airmen who would use them. There’s no corresponding federal agency in this case.
This is one instance that I concede the government can do better than the free market. Operation Warp Speed took months to come up with a vaccine that normally takes years to develop. So Trump deserves the credit for this. Biden wants to take the credit for falling infection rates and depreciate the contribution of the Trump administration. The bottlenecks are in the delivery of the vaccine, which is not the purview of Operation Warp Speed. This distribution lies in the hands of state governors as what the article points out.
The Imp :D

neverfail
Posts: 6748
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Location: Singapore

Re: 18 million infected in India. People dying at the gates of hospital

Post by neverfail » Sat May 01, 2021 3:49 pm

cassowary wrote:
Fri Apr 30, 2021 7:55 pm

You need to read up about Operation Warped Speed, initiated by Trump. You also need to differentiate with what comes out from Trump's mouth with what comes from his pen. Trump says outrageous things but his executive decisions were mostly correct. His decision making skills were honed from years of being a successful businessman.

Excerpt from link:
Operation Warp Speed’s leadership borrowed a more practical model: the industrial mobilization during World War II that produced the so-called Arsenal of Democracy.

That model can still push the vaccine rollout over the finish line. Governors and other state officials in particular need to realize the federal government is operating in the wake of a health-care version of Pearl Harbor, and adjust their operations accordingly.

From the beginning the principal mission of Operation Warp Speed was the development, manufacturing, and distribution—i.e., shipping—of coronavirus vaccines. To date, the program has managed to produce and deliver about 50 million vaccine doses—all made in the U.S.—with hundreds of millions more on the way. It also had 97,000 certified receivers distributing the vaccine across the U.S.

It is the most remarkable achievement in modern medicine, made possible by following the model of the World War II mobilization effort. That model rests on three principles.

First, set a clear target and a firm deadline. Operation Warp Speed’s goal was 20 million vaccine doses by December 2020. Aiming at that target enabled the program’s leaders, Gen. Gustave Perna and Dr. Moncef Slaoui (who resigned last month at the Biden administration’s request but will stay on as a consultant), to focus everyone in Operation Warp Speed on achieving a single result.

Second, mobilize the best pharmaceutical and drug manufacturing companies to hit the target, so that private industry invests its energy and productivity in the plan. During World War II, the big automotive and electrical companies became the driving engine of the mobilization effort, though many had never before produced arms or weapons.


In Operation Warp Speed’s case, the vaccine effort went from a single manufacturing facility in the U.S. to a network of facilities where the country’s drug companies could pool efforts to develop and manufacture vaccines. What traditional health-care experts thought of as a laboratory process became an industrial process—with prodigious results. Companies like FedEx and UPS were pressed into service to deliver the finished product.

Third, maintain government oversight from start to finish. The Commerce, Defense, and Health and Human Services departments invoked the Defense Production Act 18 times to prioritize materials and supplies for Operation Warp Speed, and get government contracts for vaccine development and manufacturing to the head of the line. The use of federal authority to guide but not micromanage the private economy’s efforts was key to producing victory in World War II and to creating the Covid vaccine in record time.

In the U.S. federal system, however, state governments can’t be steamrolled by Washington. The Arsenal of Democracy was able to ship its goods to two all-powerful federal agencies, the War and Navy departments, which knew how to get those weapons to the soldiers, sailors and airmen who would use them. There’s no corresponding federal agency in this case.
This is one instance that I concede the government can do better than the free market. Operation Warp Speed took months to come up with a vaccine that normally takes years to develop. So Trump deserves the credit for this. Biden wants to take the credit for falling infection rates and depreciate the contribution of the Trump administration. The bottlenecks are in the delivery of the vaccine, which is not the purview of Operation Warp Speed. This distribution lies in the hands of state governors as what the article points out.
The government led by Scott Morrison did not "steamroller" our state governments here in Australia. He enlisted their cooperation in the venture of "managing" the epidemic here to the point where it had ceased to be an epidemic; just occasional isolated single digit eruptions, months before the first vacines became available.

Was it not beyond the realm of possibility that Trump could have done the same thing in the United States, thereby saving the lives of up to half a million? He did not even try!

What came out of Trump's flapping, bullshiting mouth counts. Instead of ignoring party divisions; courting co-operation at state level for the purpose of making controlling the epidemic a joint national effort involving everyone, he alienated potential supporters of such a project by taking cheap shots at state administrations and popular figures on the Democrats side.

By the way: the Astra Zenica vacine developed at Oxford University came on the market at about the same time as America's first. It was not just in the USA that developing a syrum-remedy was top priority. Even China and Russia purportedly came up with their own vacine remedies at about the same time.

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dagbay
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Re: 18 million infected in India. People dying at the gates of hospital

Post by dagbay » Sat May 01, 2021 6:11 pm

Doc wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 7:51 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 1:25 am
neverfail wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:41 pm
Doc wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:27 pm
neverfail wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 7:22 pm
Don't worry about it Doc.. According to Hindu belief they will be all reincarnated into another life anyhow.
According to their beliefs, Jews murdered by the Nazis went to heaven.
Really? I did not think that Hindu's believed in an afterlife in heaven but of perpetual reincarnations into higher or lower states of being depending on the type of accumulated karma (merit? grace?) on the soul over the present and past successive lifespans.
The eternal inability of most human beings accepting death for what it is - a necessary episode for evolution...
DO you know Sertorio that there is no arrow of time? That implies that time does not exist as we perceive it. Once you are gone the time you existed and your existence itself still exists. At least for as long as the universe exists, you still exist in time. It could be part of religion or not. The physics does not say either way.
This discussion is off topic but still the statement that "that there is no arrow of time" is very simplistic. True that some physical laws work equally for positive and negative time, but for the 2nd law of thermodynamics which has not been challenged and which states that Entropy increases with time. In modern terms we would say that the probability of Entropy reversal may not be precisely zero but it is infiticimally small.. However, one states it, increasing Entropy gives meaning to the direction of time (read arrow of time).
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

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