US capitalist system declines.

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Ellen
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Re: US capitalist system declines.

Post by Ellen » Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:27 am

neverfail wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 12:42 am
cassowary wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:10 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 6:50 pm


You are taking the opportunity to warp my message by adding to it for the sake of pushing a partisan political line Cassowary.

I see the Republican Party as much a symptom of the American malaise as the Democrats. Neither party seems to have the answer and Ellen may be closer to the mark when she attributes the problem as a "cultural" thing.

In one way the Republicans are even worse. They seem to have taken on board the myth of American exceptionalism more then the Democrats.

Quite correct NF. The Republicans are just as bad as the Democrats in their own peculiar way. They are the champions of worship of markets without regard to the welfare of their own constituencies. Remember, Trump's goal was to destroy both parties, and unfortunately he did not succeed. The DP is in worse shape than the GOP looking forward, because they have no attractive young politicians who can appeal to all their mutually incompatible constituencies. But neither party is addressing the fundamental problem of the society which is the disappearance of social solidarity and the proliferation of narcissism and selfishishness masquerading as individual freedom.

Cultural and social problems cannot be cured by another round of elections. It requires a cultural revolution. The 1960's created a cultural revolution which did some good things and a lot of bad things. The bad things are destroying American society.

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Sertorio
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Re: US capitalist system declines.

Post by Sertorio » Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:26 am

cassowary wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:10 pm
Complacency in America is making them dismiss the CCP threat. This is America’s greatest challenge. When the meltdown comes, I hope Americans will be wise enough to see the agent for American decline are the policies of the Democratic Party.

(...)

Fracking has made the US a net energy exporter, which strengthens America strategically. It no longer has to bother about ensuring the supply of Mid East oil. In the face of the Chinese threat, this is an ace in the hole. But Democrats want to throw it away,
The problem is seeing the CCP as a threat. The CCP is no threat, it is a feature in present day ecology. It is a challenge but also a source of opportunities. Intelligent people will use the CCP to their advantage, stupid people will try - unsuccessfully - to destroy it. In their relations with China, Russia is smart, Europe is trying to be smart, and the US are being stupid - hopefully not stupid enough to start a war with it...

Fracking was an unmitigated disaster. Trying to be self-sufficient in fossil energy, the US was causing tremendous damage to the environment. But why should the US be self-sufficient in fossil energy, or in any other thing for which it is not naturally endowed? Trade exists in order for countries to acquire things they need, while supplying others with things they need. This has been known for thousands of years, but you - who must have read your David Ricardo - seem to prefer isolationism to trade...

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cassowary
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Re: US capitalist system declines.

Post by cassowary » Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:14 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:26 am
cassowary wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:10 pm
Complacency in America is making them dismiss the CCP threat. This is America’s greatest challenge. When the meltdown comes, I hope Americans will be wise enough to see the agent for American decline are the policies of the Democratic Party.

(...)

Fracking has made the US a net energy exporter, which strengthens America strategically. It no longer has to bother about ensuring the supply of Mid East oil. In the face of the Chinese threat, this is an ace in the hole. But Democrats want to throw it away,
The problem is seeing the CCP as a threat. The CCP is no threat, it is a feature in present day ecology. It is a challenge but also a source of opportunities. Intelligent people will use the CCP to their advantage, stupid people will try - unsuccessfully - to destroy it. In their relations with China, Russia is smart, Europe is trying to be smart, and the US are being stupid - hopefully not stupid enough to start a war with it...

Fracking was an unmitigated disaster. Trying to be self-sufficient in fossil energy, the US was causing tremendous damage to the environment. But why should the US be self-sufficient in fossil energy, or in any other thing for which it is not naturally endowed? Trade exists in order for countries to acquire things they need, while supplying others with things they need. This has been known for thousands of years, but you - who must have read your David Ricardo - seem to prefer isolationism to trade...
You are absolutely wrong. The CCP is committing suicide in Xinjiang and killilng Falungong members for their organs. The rise of a brutal regime is a threat to us all. This is the main threat facing the civilized world. The only nation that can stand up to the threat is the US. So it must remain strong. Environmental issues must take a back seat for the time being.

Also don't forget that the CCP wants to reduce us all in SE Asia into vassal states by claiming the South China Sea. The only power that can stop them is the US. So we must prolong US strength as long as possible till China implodes like the USSR, if that is possible.
The Imp :D

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Sertorio
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Re: US capitalist system declines.

Post by Sertorio » Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:25 am

cassowary wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:14 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:26 am
cassowary wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:10 pm
Complacency in America is making them dismiss the CCP threat. This is America’s greatest challenge. When the meltdown comes, I hope Americans will be wise enough to see the agent for American decline are the policies of the Democratic Party.

(...)

Fracking has made the US a net energy exporter, which strengthens America strategically. It no longer has to bother about ensuring the supply of Mid East oil. In the face of the Chinese threat, this is an ace in the hole. But Democrats want to throw it away,
The problem is seeing the CCP as a threat. The CCP is no threat, it is a feature in present day ecology. It is a challenge but also a source of opportunities. Intelligent people will use the CCP to their advantage, stupid people will try - unsuccessfully - to destroy it. In their relations with China, Russia is smart, Europe is trying to be smart, and the US are being stupid - hopefully not stupid enough to start a war with it...

Fracking was an unmitigated disaster. Trying to be self-sufficient in fossil energy, the US was causing tremendous damage to the environment. But why should the US be self-sufficient in fossil energy, or in any other thing for which it is not naturally endowed? Trade exists in order for countries to acquire things they need, while supplying others with things they need. This has been known for thousands of years, but you - who must have read your David Ricardo - seem to prefer isolationism to trade...
You are absolutely wrong. The CCP is committing suicide in Xinjiang and killilng Falungong members for their organs. The rise of a brutal regime is a threat to us all. This is the main threat facing the civilized world. The only nation that can stand up to the threat is the US. So it must remain strong. Environmental issues must take a back seat for the time being.

Also don't forget that the CCP wants to reduce us all in SE Asia into vassal states by claiming the South China Sea. The only power that can stop them is the US. So we must prolong US strength as long as possible till China implodes like the USSR, if that is possible.
You are entitled to your opinion, and also to suffer the consequences of your choices. But please do not lie: Show us evidence - and I repeat, evidence - of Falungong members being killed by China's authorities in order to harvest their organs.

neverfail
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Location: Singapore

Re: US capitalist system declines.

Post by neverfail » Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:54 am

Ellen wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 1:27 am
Quite correct NF. The Republicans are just as bad as the Democrats in their own peculiar way. They are the champions of worship of markets without regard to the welfare of their own constituencies. Remember, Trump's goal was to destroy both parties, and unfortunately he did not succeed. The DP is in worse shape than the GOP looking forward, because they have no attractive young politicians who can appeal to all their mutually incompatible constituencies. But neither party is addressing the fundamental problem of the society which is the disappearance of social solidarity and the proliferation of narcissism and selfishishness masquerading as individual freedom.

Cultural and social problems cannot be cured by another round of elections. It requires a cultural revolution. The 1960's created a cultural revolution which did some good things and a lot of bad things. The bad things are destroying American society.
Thank you Ellen. That sheds even more light on the matter.
............................................................................

Ellen, I hesitate even to ask this question as I dread the likely answer. Considering the state of decay the US seems to have sunk into, do you believe that in a prolonged global power contest with the China-Russia combo that the United States might well cave in internally under pressure from the sacrifices involved?

Remember the fate of the USSR. The United States never defeated this colossus in any contest of arms as much as outlasted it. As another moribund, redundant superpower could the same fate now await the USA?

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Sertorio
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Re: US capitalist system declines.

Post by Sertorio » Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:15 am

neverfail wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:54 am
Considering the state of decay the US seems to have sunk into, [can one](...) believe that in a prolonged global power contest with the China-Russia combo that the United States might well cave in internally under pressure from the sacrifices involved?

Remember the fate of the USSR. The United States never defeated this colossus in any contest of arms as much as outlasted it. As another moribund, redundant superpower could the same fate now await the USA?
Interesting question. But the problem arises from the fact that the US believes it is, or it should be, in a "contest with the China-Russia combo". Why not considering the possibility of the US cooperating with China, Russia and Europe, in order to safeguard peace in the world and help solving our many global problems? But that would imply the US accepting a multipolar rather than an unipolar world. And the US seems psychologically incapable of accepting being just one of several powers in the world. It may be nice being a hegemon in order to exploit the rest of the world to your benefit, but such is no longer possible...

Ellen
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Re: US capitalist system declines.

Post by Ellen » Sun Apr 25, 2021 5:46 am

Look at the decline of the Britain, for an example. In the series, "The Crown", the Queen laments to her sister that when she inherited the throne in 1952, Britain was still a formidable empire (although minus its greatest jewel - the Indian Raj and minus the Holy Land). "Now look at it. All that's happened during my reign is the place is falling apart."

True, but it wasn't her fault, first of all. She reigned, but didn't rule.

Then she laments further that she has been useless and unhelpful to the country as it entered its decline. Of course, in some sense, that's true, but her own grandmother Queen Mary told her that her job was to do nothing, to always be impartial. So what could she actually have done? Nothing really.

Then, her sister replies, "You have been calm." The Royal Family, and especially the Queen's calmness and lack of emotion and perseverence with seemingly outdated traditions have papered over the cracks of British decline, which otherwise might have become a chasm that all of them would have fallen into. The dignity and superstardom of the Monarchy gave the British people, even as their country declined, a connection to their great imperial past. Their great achievements still remembered. And their connection to some of the up and coming great powers such as the US and lesser powers like Canada, Australia, India, etc that still carry the legacy of their British roots.

That isn't such a bad outcome. All great powers decline, and but not all leave lasting and admirable legacies. Britian is still a 2d or third-tier power. It still counts for something in the world. The Queen and her increasingly insufferable family still have an international stature that is second to none, in terms of public interest. There are worse fates, look at Syria. Look at the ruin of Iran that could have been the preeminent power in the Middle East. Look at Brazil that was always supposed to be on its way to great powerdom, but never seems to get there.

The US could decline and still be a formidable and influential power, but it must - like Britian - reconcile itself to more modest achievements, more work on its own internal problems, and less pontificating on the world stage about how great capitalism and democracy are, and its own versions of each. A little more modesty is in order, I think. China will be a great power but will never reach the status of the US in the 1940-1970 period. It will be one of several great powers, but less liked and less admired than America once was. Great powers are never liked or admired for very long. The US leadership must get used to its own decline and learn some lessons from Queen Elizabeth.

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cassowary
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Re: US capitalist system declines.

Post by cassowary » Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:22 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:25 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:14 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:26 am
cassowary wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:10 pm
Complacency in America is making them dismiss the CCP threat. This is America’s greatest challenge. When the meltdown comes, I hope Americans will be wise enough to see the agent for American decline are the policies of the Democratic Party.

(...)

Fracking has made the US a net energy exporter, which strengthens America strategically. It no longer has to bother about ensuring the supply of Mid East oil. In the face of the Chinese threat, this is an ace in the hole. But Democrats want to throw it away,
The problem is seeing the CCP as a threat. The CCP is no threat, it is a feature in present day ecology. It is a challenge but also a source of opportunities. Intelligent people will use the CCP to their advantage, stupid people will try - unsuccessfully - to destroy it. In their relations with China, Russia is smart, Europe is trying to be smart, and the US are being stupid - hopefully not stupid enough to start a war with it...

Fracking was an unmitigated disaster. Trying to be self-sufficient in fossil energy, the US was causing tremendous damage to the environment. But why should the US be self-sufficient in fossil energy, or in any other thing for which it is not naturally endowed? Trade exists in order for countries to acquire things they need, while supplying others with things they need. This has been known for thousands of years, but you - who must have read your David Ricardo - seem to prefer isolationism to trade...
You are absolutely wrong. The CCP is committing genocide in Xinjiang and killilng Falungong members for their organs. The rise of a brutal regime is a threat to us all. This is the main threat facing the civilized world. The only nation that can stand up to the threat is the US. So it must remain strong. Environmental issues must take a back seat for the time being.

Also don't forget that the CCP wants to reduce us all in SE Asia into vassal states by claiming the South China Sea. The only power that can stop them is the US. So we must prolong US strength as long as possible till China implodes like the USSR, if that is possible.
You are entitled to your opinion, and also to suffer the consequences of your choices. But please do not lie: Show us evidence - and I repeat, evidence - of Falungong members being killed by China's authorities in order to harvest their organs.
An independent tribunal concluded that China has been doing forced organ harvesting.

I note that you did not deny that China is committing genocide in Xinjiang. So I take it you agree.

"................................

It seems that the EU agrees with me that China is a threat to peace.
The Imp :D

Jim the Moron
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Re: US capitalist system declines.

Post by Jim the Moron » Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:41 am

In America's heyday, when it was, militarily speaking, the top dog, it served as the world's policeman. This was unfortunate, as subsequent conflicts in Vietnam and elsewhere drained it of resources, including human.

America's decline proceeds apace. The US must accept that reality and get the hell off the world stage. This includes removing all overseas US ground forces. And it includes getting out of the UN and all other corrupt international outfits.

America must maintain an up-to-date standing army, navy, and air force, deployed along its borders, including insular areas such as Hawaii and Puerto Rico. Improve K-12 education. Reestablish former levels of fossil fuel production and kick-start a modern nucleal energy program. Increase support for coal mining, agriculture and commercial forestry. Look inward.

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Sertorio
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Re: US capitalist system declines.

Post by Sertorio » Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:46 am

cassowary wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 9:22 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:25 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 4:14 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Apr 25, 2021 2:26 am
cassowary wrote:
Sat Apr 24, 2021 7:10 pm
Complacency in America is making them dismiss the CCP threat. This is America’s greatest challenge. When the meltdown comes, I hope Americans will be wise enough to see the agent for American decline are the policies of the Democratic Party.

(...)

Fracking has made the US a net energy exporter, which strengthens America strategically. It no longer has to bother about ensuring the supply of Mid East oil. In the face of the Chinese threat, this is an ace in the hole. But Democrats want to throw it away,
The problem is seeing the CCP as a threat. The CCP is no threat, it is a feature in present day ecology. It is a challenge but also a source of opportunities. Intelligent people will use the CCP to their advantage, stupid people will try - unsuccessfully - to destroy it. In their relations with China, Russia is smart, Europe is trying to be smart, and the US are being stupid - hopefully not stupid enough to start a war with it...

Fracking was an unmitigated disaster. Trying to be self-sufficient in fossil energy, the US was causing tremendous damage to the environment. But why should the US be self-sufficient in fossil energy, or in any other thing for which it is not naturally endowed? Trade exists in order for countries to acquire things they need, while supplying others with things they need. This has been known for thousands of years, but you - who must have read your David Ricardo - seem to prefer isolationism to trade...
You are absolutely wrong. The CCP is committing genocide in Xinjiang and killilng Falungong members for their organs. The rise of a brutal regime is a threat to us all. This is the main threat facing the civilized world. The only nation that can stand up to the threat is the US. So it must remain strong. Environmental issues must take a back seat for the time being.

Also don't forget that the CCP wants to reduce us all in SE Asia into vassal states by claiming the South China Sea. The only power that can stop them is the US. So we must prolong US strength as long as possible till China implodes like the USSR, if that is possible.
You are entitled to your opinion, and also to suffer the consequences of your choices. But please do not lie: Show us evidence - and I repeat, evidence - of Falungong members being killed by China's authorities in order to harvest their organs.
An independent tribunal concluded that China has been doing forced organ harvesting.

I note that you did not deny that China is committing genocide in Xinjiang. So I take it you agree.

"................................

It seems that the EU agrees with me that China is a threat to peace.
Also taken from the press:
Allegations first surfaced around 1990 that organs were being harvested from executed Chinese prisoners. That year, the London Guardian quoted several eyewitnesses attesting to the practice of collecting prisoners’ organs immediately after execution.

https://www.thenewatlantis.com/publicat ... gan-market
I may be inclined to believe this allegation could be true, but no way will I believe that China kills people in order to harvest their organs. It sounds too much like allegations during WW1 that German soldiers bayonetted babies just for fun...

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