Naughty Israelis?

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neverfail
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by neverfail » Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:33 pm

dagbay wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:42 am

That is actually a very good distinction that you made. Jewdaism was practiced for millennias as a portable Religion (The synagogue already practiced in israel post 2nd temple destruction and practices mandated by the Rabbis made it so) and many have forgotten about the non-portable aspects which have come to life and have immense impact as the State of Israel came to be a reality. It is not so much a supernatural belief that drives Israeli and many diaspora Jews. It is a strong bond to the past as a source for inspiration for the present. Miracles happen as a result of the combined dedication of like-minded people along with some conditions that happen to be just right at the right moment in time. That is the prism through which Israelis live their lives. It is not obvious to any living and doing on a daily basis. It can be appreciated only from a distance of time and space.
If you subtract God from Judiasm is any point in keeping the religion going!

neverfail
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by neverfail » Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:56 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:58 am

It took many years but there is a moment when you must realize that the world of spirits does not make any sense, it simply does not exist. God and all spiritual beings were the only answer left to those who had no understanding of the physical world around them. Needing an answer, they adopted the only one possible to them. But as we learn more about the universe it becomes increasingly obvious that the spiritual world is both impossible and unreasonable. Not to speak of the incredible demands our Gods made from us. Don't eat pork. Don't drink alcohol. Don't have sex outside marriage. Don't allow women to show their hair in public. Give one tenth of your income to your church. Stay married to your spouse, no matter how despicable he or she may be...Of course some religions may have contributed to the strengthening of a code of ethics, but such code does not require a belief in any deity...
Sertorio,

From your own testimony it would seem that I was right and you gave up on Catholic belief lightly. I notice in your posts that you did not confessed any painful, debilitating crisis of faith; any inner struggle that could have led you to make that move. Rather your reason seems to have been more akin to my experience when I reached an age where I stopped believing in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy. One day I believed and the next day I didn't.

Well, without pretending to be any paragon of virtue (since at one time in my life I was tempted by the same logic: what if it is all nothing but a load of bullshit) it would seem that my own faith was not so skin-deep superfical. The fact that you were born into and spent your formative years influenced by Catholic belief and practice suggests to me that you received the (cosmic) "invitation" to become a disciple of Jesus here on Earth but opted not to take it up. Well, it is not for everyone so I will not try and tell you that you are wrong.

Wishing you well on your own journey through life, Sertorio.

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Sertorio
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by Sertorio » Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:16 am

neverfail wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:56 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:58 am

It took many years but there is a moment when you must realize that the world of spirits does not make any sense, it simply does not exist. God and all spiritual beings were the only answer left to those who had no understanding of the physical world around them. Needing an answer, they adopted the only one possible to them. But as we learn more about the universe it becomes increasingly obvious that the spiritual world is both impossible and unreasonable. Not to speak of the incredible demands our Gods made from us. Don't eat pork. Don't drink alcohol. Don't have sex outside marriage. Don't allow women to show their hair in public. Give one tenth of your income to your church. Stay married to your spouse, no matter how despicable he or she may be...Of course some religions may have contributed to the strengthening of a code of ethics, but such code does not require a belief in any deity...
Sertorio,

From your own testimony it would seem that I was right and you gave up on Catholic belief lightly. I notice in your posts that you did not confessed any painful, debilitating crisis of faith; any inner struggle that could have led you to make that move. Rather your reason seems to have been more akin to my experience when I reached an age where I stopped believing in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy. One day I believed and the next day I didn't.

Well, without pretending to be any paragon of virtue (since at one time in my life I was tempted by the same logic: what if it is all nothing but a load of bullshit) it would seem that my own faith was not so skin-deep superfical. The fact that you were born into and spent your formative years influenced by Catholic belief and practice suggests to me that you received the (cosmic) "invitation" to become a disciple of Jesus here on Earth but opted not to take it up. Well, it is not for everyone so I will not try and tell you that you are wrong.

Wishing you well on your own journey through life, Sertorio.
A disciple of Jesus. Well, there could be worse things in life. But Jesus was himself a disciple of Moses, and a faithful one at that, and therefore he never claimed to be God. That was Paul of Tarsus idea. But you consider Jesus to be God. Why in heavens? And why do you need a God, to start with? To give meaning to your life? Well, that meaning does exist, but it may be a lot tinier than you might be prepared to accept... Your life should not be considered separated from life throughout the universe, or from the universe as it is. So you can see how tiny you are... But why not accept it? How important is any cell in your body? Do you miss it when it dies? If cells were conscious, what would they think of themselves?...

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Sertorio
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by Sertorio » Sun Apr 18, 2021 2:23 am

neverfail wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:33 pm
dagbay wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:42 am

That is actually a very good distinction that you made. Jewdaism was practiced for millennias as a portable Religion (The synagogue already practiced in israel post 2nd temple destruction and practices mandated by the Rabbis made it so) and many have forgotten about the non-portable aspects which have come to life and have immense impact as the State of Israel came to be a reality. It is not so much a supernatural belief that drives Israeli and many diaspora Jews. It is a strong bond to the past as a source for inspiration for the present. Miracles happen as a result of the combined dedication of like-minded people along with some conditions that happen to be just right at the right moment in time. That is the prism through which Israelis live their lives. It is not obvious to any living and doing on a daily basis. It can be appreciated only from a distance of time and space.
If you subtract God from Judiasm is any point in keeping the religion going!
No, but it would be worth keeping Judaism as the culture of the Jews, as their way to give meaning to life, and to express themselves and their wonder in relation to the Universe...

Jim the Moron
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by Jim the Moron » Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:12 pm

Fires sink Iran's Largest Warship and Ravage Big Refinery"
https://nytimes.com/2021/06/02/world/mi ... -fire.html
". . . targeted by Israeli saboteurs?"

See what I mean? Always the naughty Israelis. I personally suspect the dastardly Peruvians.

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Sertorio
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by Sertorio » Thu Jun 03, 2021 2:46 am

Jim the Moron wrote:
Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:12 pm
Fires sink Iran's Largest Warship and Ravage Big Refinery"
https://nytimes.com/2021/06/02/world/mi ... -fire.html
". . . targeted by Israeli saboteurs?"

See what I mean? Always the naughty Israelis. I personally suspect the dastardly Peruvians.
Could be acts of God/Allah/Y---h... As such they are insurable... :D

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cassowary
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by cassowary » Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:54 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 9:56 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:58 am

It took many years but there is a moment when you must realize that the world of spirits does not make any sense, it simply does not exist. God and all spiritual beings were the only answer left to those who had no understanding of the physical world around them. Needing an answer, they adopted the only one possible to them. But as we learn more about the universe it becomes increasingly obvious that the spiritual world is both impossible and unreasonable. Not to speak of the incredible demands our Gods made from us. Don't eat pork. Don't drink alcohol. Don't have sex outside marriage. Don't allow women to show their hair in public. Give one tenth of your income to your church. Stay married to your spouse, no matter how despicable he or she may be...Of course some religions may have contributed to the strengthening of a code of ethics, but such code does not require a belief in any deity...
Sertorio,

From your own testimony it would seem that I was right and you gave up on Catholic belief lightly. I notice in your posts that you did not confessed any painful, debilitating crisis of faith; any inner struggle that could have led you to make that move. Rather your reason seems to have been more akin to my experience when I reached an age where I stopped believing in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy. One day I believed and the next day I didn't.

Well, without pretending to be any paragon of virtue (since at one time in my life I was tempted by the same logic: what if it is all nothing but a load of bullshit) it would seem that my own faith was not so skin-deep superfical. The fact that you were born into and spent your formative years influenced by Catholic belief and practice suggests to me that you received the (cosmic) "invitation" to become a disciple of Jesus here on Earth but opted not to take it up. Well, it is not for everyone so I will not try and tell you that you are wrong.

Wishing you well on your own journey through life, Sertorio.
Maybe he found Christianity/Catholicism too onerous to bear. Loving thy enemies is difficult. Bearing the guilt of say fornication was even more difficult. Confessions to the priest was embarrassing 😳 “You again Sertorio?” So one day, Sertorio decided to be free of all that by stop believing.
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by neverfail » Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:17 pm

cassowary wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:54 pm
Maybe he found Christianity/Catholicism too onerous to bear. Loving thy enemies is difficult. Bearing the guilt of say fornication was even more difficult. Confessions to the priest was embarrassing 😳 “You again Sertorio?” So one day, Sertorio decided to be free of all that by stop believing.
:lol:

You are speculating wildly about a fellow member of this website Cassowary. Neither of us really know but from incidental evidence it looks as though Setoriao gave up on Catholic belief and practice without too many quarms of conscience.

When I was a boy growing up here in Australia in the 1950's it was made clear even by the teaching nuns at our Church primary school that being a Catholic was a tough challenge so we should not anticipate an easy time. In those days Catholics were not thought well of and they/we suffered from various forms of discrimination, both overt and covert, from society at large. About the only advantage was that it turned the Catholic Church in Australia into a rather tough old plant.

Well, if you grow up in one of those wall-to-wall Catholic countries of Latin heritage clustered along the Mediterranean edge of southern Europe where Catholicism has been the majority religious observance for centuries your faith is hardly ever likely to be challenged in this way. Instead, being a Catholic seems to have been like being a member of the establishment. It follows therefore that to be something else (such as an athiest-socialist) like a (two fingers up) would be like a gesture of defiance towards the accepted social norm. :D

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cassowary
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by cassowary » Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:20 am

neverfail wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 7:17 pm
cassowary wrote:
Thu Jun 03, 2021 4:54 pm
Maybe he found Christianity/Catholicism too onerous to bear. Loving thy enemies is difficult. Bearing the guilt of say fornication was even more difficult. Confessions to the priest was embarrassing 😳 “You again Sertorio?” So one day, Sertorio decided to be free of all that by stop believing.
:lol:

You are speculating wildly about a fellow member of this website Cassowary. Neither of us really know but from incidental evidence it looks as though Setoriao gave up on Catholic belief and practice without too many quarms of conscience.

When I was a boy growing up here in Australia in the 1950's it was made clear even by the teaching nuns at our Church primary school that being a Catholic was a tough challenge so we should not anticipate an easy time. In those days Catholics were not thought well of and they/we suffered from various forms of discrimination, both overt and covert, from society at large. About the only advantage was that it turned the Catholic Church in Australia into a rather tough old plant.

Well, if you grow up in one of those wall-to-wall Catholic countries of Latin heritage clustered along the Mediterranean edge of southern Europe where Catholicism has been the majority religious observance for centuries your faith is hardly ever likely to be challenged in this way. Instead, being a Catholic seems to have been like being a member of the establishment. It follows therefore that to be something else (such as an athiest-socialist) like a (two fingers up) would be like a gesture of defiance towards the accepted social norm. :D
Hahaha. I love speculating about Sertorio, the most interesting character here. Yes, what you say is also possible. Sertorio could have been a rebel in his youth becoming a atheist as well as a Communist. Maybe he was sent to a strict Catholic school and didn't like the discipline, especially the part against fornification. So he decided to throw it all away. Maybe he fell in love with a nun and ran away with her. :lol: :lol: :lol:
The Imp :D

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cassowary
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by cassowary » Fri Jun 04, 2021 1:57 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:58 am
neverfail wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:01 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:10 am


That's exactly my point. You do not need to be religious to feel that bond. Let me tell you a little story of my own youth:

I must have been around 13 or 14 years old and I got my hands on a French magazine my father had bought - Science et Vie, I think it was - which had a long article about the kibbutzim in Israel, with lots of colour pictures. I was fascinated with that collective effort to develop the land of Israel, and all I wanted was to go to a kibbutz and live there. For weeks I had that magazine on my bedside table, and I dreamt of kibbutzim...Mind you, I had then barely the faintest idea of my ancestry, but I have no doubt I was emotionally pulled to the land of my ancestors. But I was then a good catholic youngster who knew nothing of Judaism and certainly hadn't the slightest intention of ever becoming a Jew, notwithstanding my ancestry. But all I wanted was to go to Israel to become a kibbutznik...The bond can exist without the religion, and I'm sure that most atheists in Israel never go back to being religious in their old age. :P
You always take a risk when you reveal some of yourself on a website like this one. I commend you for doing so Sertorio.

It sounds to me like you had a romantic infatuation with your vision of Israel and of life on a kibbutz, not a bond with the country.

To give up your Catholic religion so lightly implies that you had never developed a deep bond with that either.
It took many years but there is a moment when you must realize that the world of spirits does not make any sense, it simply does not exist. God and all spiritual beings were the only answer left to those who had no understanding of the physical world around them. Needing an answer, they adopted the only one possible to them. But as we learn more about the universe it becomes increasingly obvious that the spiritual world is both impossible and unreasonable. Not to speak of the incredible demands our Gods made from us. Don't eat pork. Don't drink alcohol. Don't have sex outside marriage. Don't allow women to show their hair in public. Give one tenth of your income to your church. Stay married to your spouse, no matter how despicable he or she may be...Of course some religions may have contributed to the strengthening of a code of ethics, but such code does not require a belief in any deity...
Sertorio,

Why do you think that spirits don't make sense? Let's start with the Great Spirit, I mean God. Well, we know from Science that there was a Big Bang where our universe - all matter and energy came into being (we call it creation). Time itself began at the Big Bang.

Since there was a creation, they has to be a Creator. Our universe is improbable. There are six numbers in Physics that allows us to be here. If any of these numbers are just a tiny bit different, we won't be talking to each other in Cyberspace for the universe would not exist.
Concentrate instead on six impossible things that, as the White Queen advised Alice, you must try to believe before breakfast.

Without them there would be no galaxies of stars, no chemistry, no people, no books and no breakfast.
All six values featured in this book permit something significant to happen, and to go on happening. Take for instance Q, the one part in 100,000 ratio between the rest mass energy of matter and the force of gravity. Were this ratio a lot smaller, gas would never condense into galaxies. Were it only a bit smaller, star formation would be slow and the raw material for future planets would not survive to form planetary systems. Were it much bigger, stars would collapse swiftly into black holes and the surviving gas would blister the universe with gamma rays.

The measure of nuclear efficiency, ε for epsilon, has a value of 0.007. If it had a value of 0.006 there would be no other elements: hydrogen could not fuse into helium and the stars could not have cooked up carbon, iron, complex chemistry and, ultimately, us. Had it been a smidgen higher, at 0.008, protons would have fused in the big bang, leaving no hydrogen to fuel future stars or deliver the Evian water.
That the numbers were so precise, not a tiny bit smaller or bigger, that allows for the universe as well as humans to exist, speaks to me of a purposeful Creation. Where there is a Creation, there has to be a Creator.
The Imp :D

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