Naughty Israelis?

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Jim the Moron
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by Jim the Moron » Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:48 pm

There is no such thing as a Palestinian refugee. That said, there are unaccomplished Arabs squatting in The Levant sucking up charity monies in hopes that somehow Israel might be destroyed. By whom?

Meanwhile, the naughty Israelis know their enemies and contrive sly methods of neutralizing them.

Ellen
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by Ellen » Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:04 pm

"Who enticed them to fight the Assad regime anyhow? This seems to be a specious, diversionary argument."


It is not specious in the slightest. It is very appropos. The Syrian sunnis started a campaign against the Alawite regime for their own justifiable internal reasons. It quickly recieved external support and that's where things went downhill fast, in retrospect. Their justified campaign quickly turned into a jihad led by the most extreme and fanatic, and incompetent (PR-wise and militarily) groups of Islamists. Supporters of the Assad regime correctly note that these jihadists never came up with any credible political plan for the post-Assad era that was reassuring to the nonSunni minorities, and that guaranteed that they wouldn't be slaughtered. This is a real worry with Islamists. Slaughtering other people is their favorite technique for solving politcal differences.

The Palestinians in the pre48 period were led by Haj Amin el Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem, who was a rabid Islamic triumphalist and spent the war years cheering Hitler on in Berlin. More pictures are coming out all the time of him touring concentration camps in Europe and applauding Hitler. This, if you please, clarified for the small number of "universalist" Jews living in the Palestine Mandate what their fate would be in any kind of binational state, which some people actually promoted in those days (eg, Martin Buber).

Faced with that type of Palestinian leadership, imbued with Islamism, not tolerance and respect for democratic norms, etc etc, there was no possiblity of compromise. 80 years later, the Palestinians haven't changed one bit. Hamas is the reincarnation of the Mufti's ideology, and the PLO leaders are just welfare queens living off of European money.

Not all Arabs hate Israel, as the recent peace agreements show. Regardless, Arab hatred turned inward has produced the disintegration of their OWN countries, not Israel. It has made them incapable of seeing their own flaws and correcting them. It has opened up their own social fissures and left them vulnerable to Iranian divide and conquer tactics. Being consumed with hatred is destroying the Arab state system, not Israel. Their inability to move beyond this primitive state has benefited Israel, actually, and benefited Iran and Turkey. As Prof. Vali Nasr commented, the Arab moment has passed. Stewing in hatred is not a good policy for groups of people who want to be independent and economically developed. We're not afraid of their hatred. They should be worried as to where it has led them, and what their fate will be, as they are swallowed up by the imperial ambitions of others.

In the long run, Israel's regional allies will not be the Arab Muslims, as I keep on trying to explain. It will be the remaining Christians in the Levant, the Kurds, and the Iranian people, believe it or not. The Persians and Jews go back a long way ----all the way to King Cyrus who encouraged the Jewish exiles in Bablyon to return to Zion and rebuild their Temple. You may think this is irrelevant history. European diplomats frequently wave their hands when the conversation turns to these past events.

Go ask Prince Reza Pahlavi sitting in exile in Maryland, if he thinks this is ancient and irrelevant history. He would disagree. He wrote recently on his Facebook page,"the Iranian people have a special place in their hearts for the Jewish people," referring to King Cyrus and his policies. These are recorded in the Bible and in Iranian historical memory. They are much more powerful than the political shenanigans of contemporary mediocre politicians and unqualified Ayatollahs who will soon pass from the world.

As a student of history, you shouldn't be impressed by small figures who will barely merit a footnote in the historical record.

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dagbay
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by dagbay » Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:42 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:01 pm
cassowary wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:51 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:47 am
dagbay wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:25 am

Sertorio, I know for a fact that different Jews attach different levels of literalism to religion. That has nothing to do with the connection between Jews and their religion. The scholars quoted are suggesting that there is a way of interpretation of the Bible as a non literal awe inspiring account. What of that brings you to believe that it is possible to separate Israeli Jews from their long history that is entirely based on the Religion and corroboratd by by archeology and literature.
Wether one attributes the crossing of the Sea of reads to supernatural intervention or just a natural phenomena exploited by people who knew of it does not change the fact that the crossing might just have happened as described.in the Bible. At this distance it matters not. The roots of the Jewish people were planted millennias ago and cannot be truncated to fulfillyour utopian dreams.
Of course it isn't possible to separate Israeli Jews from their history, but history is not religion, even though religion is part of history. And people evolve. Eventually belief in God becomes unnecessary. Whether God gave Jews the land of Israel or Jews took it over by force, is irrelevant to present day Jews. Whether God gave Moses the ten commandments or Moses wrote them on his own, is irrelevant provided you think those commandments are a valid guideline. Religion helped Jews to unite and become a people with a strong identity, but such unity and identity can exist now without the help of religion. And when religion becomes an obstacle to peace, it may be time to dump it. And I mean the Jewish religion as well as Christianity or Islam. Values and ethics must be preserved, but religions are no longer their tools.
Sertorio, Oh how much you fail to appreciate the interwoven combination of history culture religion and connection of most Israeli Jews and many diaspora Jews have with their homeland. Never in any other culture have such a longing been held for so long under such duress finally to be fulfilled by brave and spiteful action with a belated and fickle international blessing. Only moments after the state was declared the surrounding Arabs chose to try and snuff it out. There was no Israeli superiority of technology at that moment in time. There was no advanced military assets, no smart bombs. It took immense sacrifice courage and will for a minority of Jews to repel the outnumbering advancing Arab armies. Every one of the following wars was a "war for the home" kind of war. Soldiers in Israel knew then as they know today that every war is existential not only for them but for their families sometimes a mare few Km away from the front lines. That sort of determination is not inspired by a good commander or chief of staff, it is inherited from "walking with one's feet" in every nook and cranny of the land of your forefathers and having a personal connection to the land which you seem not to appreciate. For the 2 millennia that most Jews were separated from their land the connection was maintained through the religion and when possible by pilgrimage and settlement. It is very unlikely that a secular moral culture will ever be able to be a basis for a stable society as we discussed before in a different thread. I have tried to point out to you that Morality as society defines it is mutable and can be adjusted to suit the bullies in any population. (See the current USA, failing miserably to accomplish that goal, look who is hijacking the moral high ground and how - I do not agree that Americans are somehow flawed and Europeans do any better). But for the majority of Israeli Jews that is absolutely unimaginable. The religion is not just the belief in the Biblical story and God, it is a tight connection to the kingdom of Barak, Gideon, Shaul, David and Solomon, walking in their footsteps literally on the same soil. Even among the most secular spiteful Jews in Israel, those who make an effort to publicly cross every religious boundary you can find traces of this strong bond which often surfaces years later with age and wisdom causing those people to re-experience the Jewish religion.

No, you can't take away the Jewish religion from Israelis and judging from history it is not likely to happen in the future.

NF, For Israeli Jews faced with survival the plight of the Sumeria and Gaza Arabs is insignificant. Let them find their solutions elsewhere. Their co-religionist brothers do not seem to want any part of them but I believe that they are needed to fill the youth ranks of Germany and other decaying European countries. They know that, and they are migrating there in droves. It is obvious that they will never become a willing part of Israel, rather they will seek to destroy the state. Even given a political standing in the Israeli parliament for decades has not changed their destructive agenda one bit.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

neverfail
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by neverfail » Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:33 am

Ellen wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:04 pm
"Who enticed them to fight the Assad regime anyhow? This seems to be a specious, diversionary argument."


It is not specious in the slightest. It is very appropos. The Syrian sunnis started a campaign against the Alawite regime for their own justifiable internal reasons. It quickly recieved external support and that's where things went downhill fast, in retrospect. Their justified campaign quickly turned into a jihad led by the most extreme and fanatic, and incompetent (PR-wise and militarily) groups of Islamists. Supporters of the Assad regime correctly note that these jihadists never came up with any credible political plan for the post-Assad era that was reassuring to the nonSunni minorities, and that guaranteed that they wouldn't be slaughtered. This is a real worry with Islamists. Slaughtering other people is their favorite technique for solving politcal differences.


Ellen, I would like to know your opinion on this: I read somewhere that Turkey and Saudi Arabia have been supporting ISIS and Al Queda and (one step further back) the United States has been reluctantly dragged in as an ally. This should not displease the Israeli government as lined up against this coalition is one of the Assad government; Hezbollah and the Russians. I get the impression that Israelis consider Hezbollah a bigger threat to their country than Hamas or ISIS? Considering how it was an Al Queda cell that perpetrated the Twin Towers outrage in 2001, don't you consider it contradictory that the USA should be now employing Al Queda operativers as cannon fodder now?

The Palestinians in the pre48 period were led by Haj Amin el Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem, who was a rabid Islamic triumphalist and spent the war years cheering Hitler on in Berlin. More pictures are coming out all the time of him touring concentration camps in Europe and applauding Hitler. This, if you please, clarified for the small number of "universalist" Jews living in the Palestine Mandate what their fate would be in any kind of binational state, which some people actually promoted in those days (eg, Martin Buber).
Yes, I have heard about this twerp Haj Husseini: who seems with hindsight to have given his people the worst possible non-leadership. I am astounded that the Palestinians by now have not reflected more on how that demon led them down into hell and dispensed with all of similar volution.

Please excuse my apparent lapse into sympathy for the Palestinian cause but it strikes me as very unfair that these people should still be punished for something that happened back in 1948.

(Having stated that: if I had to choose between living in Israel or in any one of Israel's Arab neighbours I would of course much rather live in Israel. :D )
Faced with that type of Palestinian leadership, imbued with Islamism, not tolerance and respect for democratic norms, etc etc, there was no possiblity of compromise. 80 years later, the Palestinians haven't changed one bit. Hamas is the reincarnation of the Mufti's ideology, and the PLO leaders are just welfare queens living off of European money.
Surely the Europeans would only be providing the refugee Palestinians with humanitarian aid to ease their pain: not supplying them with guns and explosives so they can better do harm to Israel?
Not all Arabs hate Israel, as the recent peace agreements show. Regardless, Arab hatred turned inward has produced the disintegration of their OWN countries, not Israel. It has made them incapable of seeing their own flaws and correcting them. It has opened up their own social fissures and left them vulnerable to Iranian divide and conquer tactics. Being consumed with hatred is destroying the Arab state system, not Israel. Their inability to move beyond this primitive state has benefited Israel, actually, and benefited Iran and Turkey. As Prof. Vali Nasr commented, the Arab moment has passed. Stewing in hatred is not a good policy for groups of people who want to be independent and economically developed. We're not afraid of their hatred. They should be worried as to where it has led them, and what their fate will be, as they are swallowed up by the imperial ambitions of others.

In the long run, Israel's regional allies will not be the Arab Muslims, as I keep on trying to explain. It will be the remaining Christians in the Levant, the Kurds, and the Iranian people, believe it or not. The Persians and Jews go back a long way ----all the way to King Cyrus who encouraged the Jewish exiles in Bablyon to return to Zion and rebuild their Temple. You may think this is irrelevant history. European diplomats frequently wave their hands when the conversation turns to these past events.

Go ask Prince Reza Pahlavi sitting in exile in Maryland, if he thinks this is ancient and irrelevant history. He would disagree. He wrote recently on his Facebook page,"the Iranian people have a special place in their hearts for the Jewish people," referring to King Cyrus and his policies. These are recorded in the Bible and in Iranian historical memory. They are much more powerful than the political shenanigans of contemporary mediocre politicians and unqualified Ayatollahs who will soon pass from the world.

As a student of history, you shouldn't be impressed by small figures who will barely merit a footnote in the historical record.
Well, Pahlavi can afford to as he was long ago relieved of the power to make policy for Iran. I am surprised that he is still around.

I know about KIng Cyrus of Persia. As well as King of the Persians he was arguably also the first Emperor of the Persian empire. Mesopotamia, the heart of the Chaldian Empire which had held the Jews in captivity was his first conquest. Cyrus might have judged that he needed allies in lands further to the west that he had his eye on for eventual inclusion in his then still fledgling empire. So releasing the Jews to return to Judea and rebuild their kingdom was likely a good tactical move to recruit loyal allies closer to the eastern Meditteranean shoreline.

In other words it may not have been quite the act of generousity that it might appear at first sight.

But that was then and this is now.

neverfail
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by neverfail » Sat Apr 17, 2021 12:50 am

dagbay wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:42 pm


NF, For Israeli Jews faced with survival the plight of the Sumeria and Gaza Arabs is insignificant. Let them find their solutions elsewhere. Their co-religionist brothers do not seem to want any part of them but I believe that they are needed to fill the youth ranks of Germany and other decaying European countries. They know that, and they are migrating there in droves. It is obvious that they will never become a willing part of Israel, rather they will seek to destroy the state. Even given a political standing in the Israeli parliament for decades has not changed their destructive agenda one bit.
There seems to be confusion here Dagbay. Did you post this or was Sertorio the author?

The abscence of any anti-America/'pro-Russia and China swipe inclusion in it leads me to conclude that it was more likely you.
......................................................................................................................................

(In reply: well they may not want to migrate to other Arab countries to rebuild their lives as Palestine, now largely occupied by Israel, (not Jordan, Syria Egypt or Saudi Arabia; let alone Germany) was the country they were dispossessed from and presumably want back.

I am sure that most Israelis would harbour an attitide akin to "there is no country in the World like Israel and nothing else is a substitute". Do you believe that Israelis are the only ones?

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Sertorio
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by Sertorio » Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:10 am

dagbay wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:42 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:01 pm
dagbay wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:25 am

Sertorio, I know for a fact that different Jews attach different levels of literalism to religion. That has nothing to do with the connection between Jews and their religion. The scholars quoted are suggesting that there is a way of interpretation of the Bible as a non literal awe inspiring account. What of that brings you to believe that it is possible to separate Israeli Jews from their long history that is entirely based on the Religion and corroboratd by by archeology and literature.
Wether one attributes the crossing of the Sea of reads to supernatural intervention or just a natural phenomena exploited by people who knew of it does not change the fact that the crossing might just have happened as described.in the Bible. At this distance it matters not. The roots of the Jewish people were planted millennias ago and cannot be truncated to fulfillyour utopian dreams.
Of course it isn't possible to separate Israeli Jews from their history, but history is not religion, even though religion is part of history. And people evolve. Eventually belief in God becomes unnecessary. Whether God gave Jews the land of Israel or Jews took it over by force, is irrelevant to present day Jews. Whether God gave Moses the ten commandments or Moses wrote them on his own, is irrelevant provided you think those commandments are a valid guideline. Religion helped Jews to unite and become a people with a strong identity, but such unity and identity can exist now without the help of religion. And when religion becomes an obstacle to peace, it may be time to dump it. And I mean the Jewish religion as well as Christianity or Islam. Values and ethics must be preserved, but religions are no longer their tools.
Sertorio, Oh how much you fail to appreciate the interwoven combination of history culture religion and connection of most Israeli Jews and many diaspora Jews have with their homeland. Never in any other culture have such a longing been held for so long under such duress finally to be fulfilled by brave and spiteful action with a belated and fickle international blessing. Only moments after the state was declared the surrounding Arabs chose to try and snuff it out. There was no Israeli superiority of technology at that moment in time. There was no advanced military assets, no smart bombs. It took immense sacrifice courage and will for a minority of Jews to repel the outnumbering advancing Arab armies. Every one of the following wars was a "war for the home" kind of war. Soldiers in Israel knew then as they know today that every war is existential not only for them but for their families sometimes a mare few Km away from the front lines. That sort of determination is not inspired by a good commander or chief of staff, it is inherited from "walking with one's feet" in every nook and cranny of the land of your forefathers and having a personal connection to the land which you seem not to appreciate. For the 2 millennia that most Jews were separated from their land the connection was maintained through the religion and when possible by pilgrimage and settlement. It is very unlikely that a secular moral culture will ever be able to be a basis for a stable society as we discussed before in a different thread. I have tried to point out to you that Morality as society defines it is mutable and can be adjusted to suit the bullies in any population. (See the current USA, failing miserably to accomplish that goal, look who is hijacking the moral high ground and how - I do not agree that Americans are somehow flawed and Europeans do any better). But for the majority of Israeli Jews that is absolutely unimaginable. The religion is not just the belief in the Biblical story and God, it is a tight connection to the kingdom of Barak, Gideon, Shaul, David and Solomon, walking in their footsteps literally on the same soil. Even among the most secular spiteful Jews in Israel, those who make an effort to publicly cross every religious boundary you can find traces of this strong bond which often surfaces years later with age and wisdom causing those people to re-experience the Jewish religion.

No, you can't take away the Jewish religion from Israelis and judging from history it is not likely to happen in the future.

NF, For Israeli Jews faced with survival the plight of the Sumeria and Gaza Arabs is insignificant. Let them find their solutions elsewhere. Their co-religionist brothers do not seem to want any part of them but I believe that they are needed to fill the youth ranks of Germany and other decaying European countries. They know that, and they are migrating there in droves. It is obvious that they will never become a willing part of Israel, rather they will seek to destroy the state. Even given a political standing in the Israeli parliament for decades has not changed their destructive agenda one bit.
That's exactly my point. You do not need to be religious to feel that bond. Let me tell you a little story of my own youth:

I must have been around 13 or 14 years old and I got my hands on a French magazine my father had bought - Science et Vie, I think it was - which had a long article about the kibbutzim in Israel, with lots of colour pictures. I was fascinated with that collective effort to develop the land of Israel, and all I wanted was to go to a kibbutz and live there. For weeks I had that magazine on my bedside table, and I dreamt of kibbutzim...Mind you, I had then barely the faintest idea of my ancestry, but I have no doubt I was emotionally pulled to the land of my ancestors. But I was then a good catholic youngster who knew nothing of Judaism and certainly hadn't the slightest intention of ever becoming a Jew, notwithstanding my ancestry. But all I wanted was to go to Israel to become a kibbutznik...The bond can exist without the religion, and I'm sure that most atheists in Israel never go back to being religious in their old age. :P

neverfail
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by neverfail » Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:01 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:10 am


That's exactly my point. You do not need to be religious to feel that bond. Let me tell you a little story of my own youth:

I must have been around 13 or 14 years old and I got my hands on a French magazine my father had bought - Science et Vie, I think it was - which had a long article about the kibbutzim in Israel, with lots of colour pictures. I was fascinated with that collective effort to develop the land of Israel, and all I wanted was to go to a kibbutz and live there. For weeks I had that magazine on my bedside table, and I dreamt of kibbutzim...Mind you, I had then barely the faintest idea of my ancestry, but I have no doubt I was emotionally pulled to the land of my ancestors. But I was then a good catholic youngster who knew nothing of Judaism and certainly hadn't the slightest intention of ever becoming a Jew, notwithstanding my ancestry. But all I wanted was to go to Israel to become a kibbutznik...The bond can exist without the religion, and I'm sure that most atheists in Israel never go back to being religious in their old age. :P
You always take a risk when you reveal some of yourself on a website like this one. I commend you for doing so Sertorio.

It sounds to me like you had a romantic infatuation with your vision of Israel and of life on a kibbutz, not a bond with the country.

To give up your Catholic religion so lightly implies that you had never developed a deep bond with that either.

neverfail
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by neverfail » Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:39 am

dagbay wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:42 pm


Of course it isn't possible to separate Israeli Jews from their history, but history is not religion, even though religion is part of history. And people evolve. Eventually belief in God becomes unnecessary. Whether God gave Jews the land of Israel or Jews took it over by force, is irrelevant to present day Jews. Whether God gave Moses the ten commandments or Moses wrote them on his own, is irrelevant provided you think those commandments are a valid guideline. Religion helped Jews to unite and become a people with a strong identity, but such unity and identity can exist now without the help of religion. And when religion becomes an obstacle to peace, it may be time to dump it. And I mean the Jewish religion as well as Christianity or Islam. Values and ethics must be preserved, but religions are no longer their tools.
Sertorio, Oh how much you fail to appreciate the interwoven combination of history culture religion and connection of most Israeli Jews and many diaspora Jews have with their homeland. Never in any other culture have such a longing been held for so long under such duress finally to be fulfilled by brave and spiteful action with a belated and fickle international blessing. Only moments after the state was declared the surrounding Arabs chose to try and snuff it out. There was no Israeli superiority of technology at that moment in time. There was no advanced military assets, no smart bombs. It took immense sacrifice courage and will for a minority of Jews to repel the outnumbering advancing Arab armies. Every one of the following wars was a "war for the home" kind of war. Soldiers in Israel knew then as they know today that every war is existential not only for them but for their families sometimes a mare few Km away from the front lines. That sort of determination is not inspired by a good commander or chief of staff, it is inherited from "walking with one's feet" in every nook and cranny of the land of your forefathers and having a personal connection to the land which you seem not to appreciate. For the 2 millennia that most Jews were separated from their land the connection was maintained through the religion and when possible by pilgrimage and settlement. It is very unlikely that a secular moral culture will ever be able to be a basis for a stable society as we discussed before in a different thread. I have tried to point out to you that Morality as society defines it is mutable and can be adjusted to suit the bullies in any population. (See the current USA, failing miserably to accomplish that goal, look who is hijacking the moral high ground and how - I do not agree that Americans are somehow flawed and Europeans do any better). But for the majority of Israeli Jews that is absolutely unimaginable. The religion is not just the belief in the Biblical story and God, it is a tight connection to the kingdom of Barak, Gideon, Shaul, David and Solomon, walking in their footsteps literally on the same soil. Even among the most secular spiteful Jews in Israel, those who make an effort to publicly cross every religious boundary you can find traces of this strong bond which often surfaces years later with age and wisdom causing those people to re-experience the Jewish religion.

No, you can't take away the Jewish religion from Israelis and judging from history it is not likely to happen in the future.
Dagbay, I like and fully endorse your reply to Sertorio.

When times are good and things go smoothly people tend to treat religion lightly and are often tempted by apostasy. When times become harsh and challenging and death is all around people tend to look to God for succour.

Religion defines the way we relate to God and that the Jews survived as a people and came back to prosper might well be due to their repeatedly turning back to God. In that regard their repeat experience of pogroms and persecutions in the diaspora might (ironically) have strengthened them.
.......................................................................................................................................

Might I share my observation that in one way Jews must be a lot like Australian aboriginals. Their religion (or rather their sense of the supernatural as they don't seem to have a formal creed) is very much interconnected with their (tribal) country so that the spirit world and the tangable world merge seamlesly one and indivisable.

Australian aboriginals have their sacred sites and Jews have theirs.

I am accustomed to a much more portable, self-contained faith that does not rely so much on any such existential relationship with the Holy Land or anywhere else in particular: so your point about your Jewish spiritual bond with Israel adds a new dimension to the concept of religion for me.

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dagbay
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by dagbay » Sat Apr 17, 2021 6:42 am

neverfail wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:39 am
dagbay wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 9:42 pm


Of course it isn't possible to separate Israeli Jews from their history, but history is not religion, even though religion is part of history. And people evolve. Eventually belief in God becomes unnecessary. Whether God gave Jews the land of Israel or Jews took it over by force, is irrelevant to present day Jews. Whether God gave Moses the ten commandments or Moses wrote them on his own, is irrelevant provided you think those commandments are a valid guideline. Religion helped Jews to unite and become a people with a strong identity, but such unity and identity can exist now without the help of religion. And when religion becomes an obstacle to peace, it may be time to dump it. And I mean the Jewish religion as well as Christianity or Islam. Values and ethics must be preserved, but religions are no longer their tools.
Sertorio, Oh how much you fail to appreciate the interwoven combination of history culture religion and connection of most Israeli Jews and many diaspora Jews have with their homeland. Never in any other culture have such a longing been held for so long under such duress finally to be fulfilled by brave and spiteful action with a belated and fickle international blessing. Only moments after the state was declared the surrounding Arabs chose to try and snuff it out. There was no Israeli superiority of technology at that moment in time. There was no advanced military assets, no smart bombs. It took immense sacrifice courage and will for a minority of Jews to repel the outnumbering advancing Arab armies. Every one of the following wars was a "war for the home" kind of war. Soldiers in Israel knew then as they know today that every war is existential not only for them but for their families sometimes a mare few Km away from the front lines. That sort of determination is not inspired by a good commander or chief of staff, it is inherited from "walking with one's feet" in every nook and cranny of the land of your forefathers and having a personal connection to the land which you seem not to appreciate. For the 2 millennia that most Jews were separated from their land the connection was maintained through the religion and when possible by pilgrimage and settlement. It is very unlikely that a secular moral culture will ever be able to be a basis for a stable society as we discussed before in a different thread. I have tried to point out to you that Morality as society defines it is mutable and can be adjusted to suit the bullies in any population. (See the current USA, failing miserably to accomplish that goal, look who is hijacking the moral high ground and how - I do not agree that Americans are somehow flawed and Europeans do any better). But for the majority of Israeli Jews that is absolutely unimaginable. The religion is not just the belief in the Biblical story and God, it is a tight connection to the kingdom of Barak, Gideon, Shaul, David and Solomon, walking in their footsteps literally on the same soil. Even among the most secular spiteful Jews in Israel, those who make an effort to publicly cross every religious boundary you can find traces of this strong bond which often surfaces years later with age and wisdom causing those people to re-experience the Jewish religion.

No, you can't take away the Jewish religion from Israelis and judging from history it is not likely to happen in the future.
Dagbay, I like and fully endorse your reply to Sertorio.

When times are good and things go smoothly people tend to treat religion lightly and are often tempted by apostasy. When times become harsh and challenging and death is all around people tend to look to God for succour.

Religion defines the way we relate to God and that the Jews survived as a people and came back to prosper might well be due to their repeatedly turning back to God. In that regard their repeat experience of pogroms and persecutions in the diaspora might (ironically) have strengthened them.
.......................................................................................................................................

Might I share my observation that in one way Jews must be a lot like Australian aboriginals. Their religion (or rather their sense of the supernatural as they don't seem to have a formal creed) is very much interconnected with their (tribal) country so that the spirit world and the tangable world merge seamlesly one and indivisable.

Australian aboriginals have their sacred sites and Jews have theirs.

I am accustomed to a much more portable, self-contained faith that does not rely so much on any such existential relationship with the Holy Land or anywhere else in particular: so your point about your Jewish spiritual bond with Israel adds a new dimension to the concept of religion for me.
That is actually a very good distinction that you made. Jewdaism was practiced for millennias as a portable Religion (The synagogue already practiced in israel post 2nd temple destruction and practices mandated by the Rabbis made it so) and many have forgotten about the non-portable aspects which have come to life and have immense impact as the State of Israel came to be a reality. It is not so much a supernatural belief that drives Israeli and many diaspora Jews. It is a strong bond to the past as a source for inspiration for the present. Miracles happen as a result of the combined dedication of like-minded people along with some conditions that happen to be just right at the right moment in time. That is the prism through which Israelis live their lives. It is not obvious to any living and doing on a daily basis. It can be appreciated only from a distance of time and space.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

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Sertorio
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by Sertorio » Sat Apr 17, 2021 7:58 am

neverfail wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 5:01 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sat Apr 17, 2021 1:10 am


That's exactly my point. You do not need to be religious to feel that bond. Let me tell you a little story of my own youth:

I must have been around 13 or 14 years old and I got my hands on a French magazine my father had bought - Science et Vie, I think it was - which had a long article about the kibbutzim in Israel, with lots of colour pictures. I was fascinated with that collective effort to develop the land of Israel, and all I wanted was to go to a kibbutz and live there. For weeks I had that magazine on my bedside table, and I dreamt of kibbutzim...Mind you, I had then barely the faintest idea of my ancestry, but I have no doubt I was emotionally pulled to the land of my ancestors. But I was then a good catholic youngster who knew nothing of Judaism and certainly hadn't the slightest intention of ever becoming a Jew, notwithstanding my ancestry. But all I wanted was to go to Israel to become a kibbutznik...The bond can exist without the religion, and I'm sure that most atheists in Israel never go back to being religious in their old age. :P
You always take a risk when you reveal some of yourself on a website like this one. I commend you for doing so Sertorio.

It sounds to me like you had a romantic infatuation with your vision of Israel and of life on a kibbutz, not a bond with the country.

To give up your Catholic religion so lightly implies that you had never developed a deep bond with that either.
It took many years but there is a moment when you must realize that the world of spirits does not make any sense, it simply does not exist. God and all spiritual beings were the only answer left to those who had no understanding of the physical world around them. Needing an answer, they adopted the only one possible to them. But as we learn more about the universe it becomes increasingly obvious that the spiritual world is both impossible and unreasonable. Not to speak of the incredible demands our Gods made from us. Don't eat pork. Don't drink alcohol. Don't have sex outside marriage. Don't allow women to show their hair in public. Give one tenth of your income to your church. Stay married to your spouse, no matter how despicable he or she may be...Of course some religions may have contributed to the strengthening of a code of ethics, but such code does not require a belief in any deity...

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