Naughty Israelis?

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Jim the Moron
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by Jim the Moron » Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:03 am

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:27 am
Ellen wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:04 am
Israel is in some ways a quasi-theocracy. One of my close friends complains about this all the time.

But, what is the difference between a Jewish quasi-theocracy and an Islamic full-blown theocracy?

The Muslim theocracy wants to wage permanent jihad against all of its neighbors, the Western world, and most of its own citizens who are now secular. That's a tall order of battle for a not-very-competent regime with little cash flow.

In contrast, what does Israel's quasi theocracy want to accomplish with its limited power? They want strict public observance of the laws concerning kosher food, observance of the Sabbath, and prevention of conversions that are less stringent than the ultraorthodox variety. Who is bothered by these things in the whole world? Nobody except the citizens of Israel and potential immigrants who were not born of a Jewish mother or are not willing to undergo the very demanding Orthodox conversion procedure. Most of the world's 7 billion inhabitants have no reason to care one way or the other.

So, I wouldn't compare the two.

Regarding the Palestinians. Gaza is already an independent state whose inhabitants want to flee to anywhere in the world they can get admitted to. It effectively is already part of Egypt. The West Bank will never be a Palestinian state. The Arab parts of it will be attached to the future Palestinian state in Jordan. The Hashemite Kingdom is on its last legs. If the Palestinians have any real desire for a state (I doubt that they do), that is where their efforts should be focused. They will never get citizenship in Israel.
If all Arab residents in the West Bank were to become Israeli citizens, Israel would have a total of 4.7 million Arab citizens, against close to 7 million Jewish citizens. As it is to be expected that both groups would converge to a similar rate of growth, I do not think that the Jewish population would ever risk becoming a minority. So, why not?

Left unsaid in all of this is the nature of the Arab population anxious to subvert and destroy Israeli culture and ultimately the nation of Israel. Why should civilized folks view with favor a bunch of unaccomplished Arabs squatting in Palestine, anxious to slaughter Israelis at the behest of savage Muslim clerics?
In contrast to the "Palestinians," the considerably more accomplished Iranians are burdened with primitive clergy pledged to destroy Israel. Cynical "deals" with western entities will never deter its clergy from its desire to develop nuclear weapons. The hope here is that put-upon Iranians will kick out said clergy.

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Sertorio
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by Sertorio » Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:37 am

Jim the Moron wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 6:03 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:27 am
Ellen wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:04 am
Israel is in some ways a quasi-theocracy. One of my close friends complains about this all the time.

But, what is the difference between a Jewish quasi-theocracy and an Islamic full-blown theocracy?

The Muslim theocracy wants to wage permanent jihad against all of its neighbors, the Western world, and most of its own citizens who are now secular. That's a tall order of battle for a not-very-competent regime with little cash flow.

In contrast, what does Israel's quasi theocracy want to accomplish with its limited power? They want strict public observance of the laws concerning kosher food, observance of the Sabbath, and prevention of conversions that are less stringent than the ultraorthodox variety. Who is bothered by these things in the whole world? Nobody except the citizens of Israel and potential immigrants who were not born of a Jewish mother or are not willing to undergo the very demanding Orthodox conversion procedure. Most of the world's 7 billion inhabitants have no reason to care one way or the other.

So, I wouldn't compare the two.

Regarding the Palestinians. Gaza is already an independent state whose inhabitants want to flee to anywhere in the world they can get admitted to. It effectively is already part of Egypt. The West Bank will never be a Palestinian state. The Arab parts of it will be attached to the future Palestinian state in Jordan. The Hashemite Kingdom is on its last legs. If the Palestinians have any real desire for a state (I doubt that they do), that is where their efforts should be focused. They will never get citizenship in Israel.
If all Arab residents in the West Bank were to become Israeli citizens, Israel would have a total of 4.7 million Arab citizens, against close to 7 million Jewish citizens. As it is to be expected that both groups would converge to a similar rate of growth, I do not think that the Jewish population would ever risk becoming a minority. So, why not?

Left unsaid in all of this is the nature of the Arab population anxious to subvert and destroy Israeli culture and ultimately the nation of Israel. Why should civilized folks view with favor a bunch of unaccomplished Arabs squatting in Palestine, anxious to slaughter Israelis at the behest of savage Muslim clerics?
In contrast to the "Palestinians," the considerably more accomplished Iranians are burdened with primitive clergy pledged to destroy Israel. Cynical "deals" with western entities will never deter its clergy from its desire to develop nuclear weapons. The hope here is that put-upon Iranians will kick out said clergy.
Israel already has about 1.9 million Arab citizens, who seem to gradually converge towards Israeli norms of behaviour. Why shouldn't the same happen with the remaining Arabs living in the West Bank?

Ellen
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by Ellen » Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:35 am

Sertorio,

Your statistics are wrong, because the PLO inflates the Arab population on the West Bank. But regardless, I understand your point. You are asking why a 21% Arab population can assimilate (to some degree, and the level of assimilation is growing rapidly) into the broader Israeli culture, but not a 33% Arab population, which would result if the West Bank were to be annexed totally.

First of all, numbers matter. 21% is a small enough minority, but 33% is too large to swallow. Secondly, of the 21% who are Arab, only 18% are actually Muslim, the rest being Christians and Druze, who are loyal to Israel. The Druze have been serving in the Israeli army since the 1950's. No one is afraid of them subverting the state or society. The problem is with the Muslim population. FYI, the West Bank is almost entirely Muslim as the Christians are almost gone, largely through emigration.

A Muslim population living in the Holy Land will never be satisfied being a second fiddle to Jewish achievement and power, which is what they would be. The Palestinian Arabs in West Bank, Gaza, Jordan (where they are a majority) and Syria and Lebanon have no accomplishments to their name other than terrorism and perpetual agitation, after 100 years of claiming to be a nationality group. Do you think they are not aware of this? What do they have to show as a supposed nation? No one respects them, especially in the Arab world. They are viewed as cry babies and losers, and perpetual failures. Absorbing them into any country - especially a Jewish one - in large numbers is a recipe for irredentism and civil war.

The most likely results of any attempt to incorporate large numbers of Palestinians in the West Bank into Israel would be a civil war, and the Palestinians would be losers again, and thrown across the border into Jordan. This is the most likely result of all possible outcomes to this conflict. Sorry to say this. There won't be a happy ending to this conflict, on the Palestinian side. The Arab states are so desperate for Israel's help against a predatory Iran, they don't care anymore. They've lost interest in the Pal. cause. They are now concerned with their own precarious survival. That is the situation today in the Middle East.

Iran cannot destroy Israel, but it can destroy the entire Arab Levant, state by state. And that is what they are doing, under the cowardly and apathetic gaze of European "peace processing."

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Sertorio
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by Sertorio » Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:59 am

Ellen wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 7:35 am
Sertorio,

Your statistics are wrong, because the PLO inflates the Arab population on the West Bank. But regardless, I understand your point. You are asking why a 21% Arab population can assimilate (to some degree, and the level of assimilation is growing rapidly) into the broader Israeli culture, but not a 33% Arab population, which would result if the West Bank were to be annexed totally.

First of all, numbers matter. 21% is a small enough minority, but 33% is too large to swallow. Secondly, of the 21% who are Arab, only 18% are actually Muslim, the rest being Christians and Druze, who are loyal to Israel. The Druze have been serving in the Israeli army since the 1950's. No one is afraid of them subverting the state or society. The problem is with the Muslim population. FYI, the West Bank is almost entirely Muslim as the Christians are almost gone, largely through emigration.

A Muslim population living in the Holy Land will never be satisfied being a second fiddle to Jewish achievement and power, which is what they would be. The Palestinian Arabs in West Bank, Gaza, Jordan (where they are a majority) and Syria and Lebanon have no accomplishments to their name other than terrorism and perpetual agitation, after 100 years of claiming to be a nationality group. Do you think they are not aware of this? What do they have to show as a supposed nation? No one respects them, especially in the Arab world. They are viewed as cry babies and losers, and perpetual failures. Absorbing them into any country - especially a Jewish one - in large numbers is a recipe for irredentism and civil war.

The most likely results of any attempt to incorporate large numbers of Palestinians in the West Bank into Israel would be a civil war, and the Palestinians would be losers again, and thrown across the border into Jordan. This is the most likely result of all possible outcomes to this conflict. Sorry to say this. There won't be a happy ending to this conflict, on the Palestinian side. The Arab states are so desperate for Israel's help against a predatory Iran, they don't care anymore. They've lost interest in the Pal. cause. They are now concerned with their own precarious survival. That is the situation today in the Middle East.

Iran cannot destroy Israel, but it can destroy the entire Arab Levant, state by state. And that is what they are doing, under the cowardly and apathetic gaze of European "peace processing."
You live in Israel and know the situation first hand, so it would be presumptuous from me to try and offer you "the" solution to the Palestinian problem. But because I am an optimist, I feel that for most Palestinians on the West Bank, having access to the Israeli quality of life would be more important than any religious fantasies. If treated as equals those Arabs would soon feel that, as Israelis, they would be superior to any other Arabs in the ME. Pride in their country and nationality would grow, and they might come to feel a true kinship with the Jewish population. One would be surprised to see how well people respond to being treated fairly and with respect. Arabs are no different from other people as far as that is concerned...

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Milo
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by Milo » Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:56 am

I think cyberwarfare is a welcome development, it will reward knowledge and innovation and minimize casualties.

In any event, it will only grow in scope and efficacy from here, whether we like it or not.

Ellen
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by Ellen » Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:07 am

Milo wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:56 am
I think cyberwarfare is a welcome development, it will reward knowledge and innovation and minimize casualties.

In any event, it will only grow in scope and efficacy from here, whether we like it or not.

I agree with you Milo. Cyber is the only power greater than a nuclear bomb. You can't even have a functioning electricity system, let alone a nuclear program, if you have an enemy with superior cyber warfare capabilities. The Iranians have belatedly discovered this after investing untold billions in their nuclear program and recently in their ballistic missile program. Every thing they have built can be paralyzed or destroyed by effective cyber control.

The smartest people drafted into the Israeli army have gone into cyber for many years, if not decades, by now. These are the warriors that matter most now, and the pilots of the airforce, of course. While Qassem Soleimani wasted billions and years of effort recruiting poor, ignorant Shiite jihadis to take over collapsing Arab countries, a whole new world of warfare was dawning, and he was out of his depth. Supposedly, he left school at the age of 16. So, although he was a very intelligent man, and personally brave, none of that mattered. He was bogged down with the mythology of the jihadi and his kalachnikov rifle running suicide attacks.

General Patton remarked during WWII that you don't win wars by dying for your country. You win wars by making some other son of a bitch die for HIS country. Soleimani cherished martyrdom, his own and that of his countryman. According to Patton, that is the quickest way to lose a war against a determined foe. The Arabs are not determined, they give up very quickly, as anyone can see. They were very intimidated by all those Shiite potential martyrs. Israel is another kettle of fish entirely. Soleimani was very mistaken in his view of Israeli Jews, just like the Europeans. They deserve to sit in Geneva together and rot away negotiating another useless agreement that will soon be forgotten.

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Doc
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by Doc » Mon Apr 12, 2021 3:31 pm

Ellen wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:07 am
Milo wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:56 am
I think cyberwarfare is a welcome development, it will reward knowledge and innovation and minimize casualties.

In any event, it will only grow in scope and efficacy from here, whether we like it or not.

I agree with you Milo. Cyber is the only power greater than a nuclear bomb. You can't even have a functioning electricity system, let alone a nuclear program, if you have an enemy with superior cyber warfare capabilities. The Iranians have belatedly discovered this after investing untold billions in their nuclear program and recently in their ballistic missile program. Every thing they have built can be paralyzed or destroyed by effective cyber control.

The smartest people drafted into the Israeli army have gone into cyber for many years, if not decades, by now. These are the warriors that matter most now, and the pilots of the airforce, of course. While Qassem Soleimani wasted billions and years of effort recruiting poor, ignorant Shiite jihadis to take over collapsing Arab countries, a whole new world of warfare was dawning, and he was out of his depth. Supposedly, he left school at the age of 16. So, although he was a very intelligent man, and personally brave, none of that mattered. He was bogged down with the mythology of the jihadi and his kalachnikov rifle running suicide attacks.

General Patton remarked during WWII that you don't win wars by dying for your country. You win wars by making some other son of a bitch die for HIS country. Soleimani cherished martyrdom, his own and that of his countryman. According to Patton, that is the quickest way to lose a war against a determined foe. The Arabs are not determined, they give up very quickly, as anyone can see. They were very intimidated by all those Shiite potential martyrs. Israel is another kettle of fish entirely. Soleimani was very mistaken in his view of Israeli Jews, just like the Europeans. They deserve to sit in Geneva together and rot away negotiating another useless agreement that will soon be forgotten.
Nuclear weapons can kill millions. Cyber weapons can kill billions.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Milo
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by Milo » Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:02 pm

Ellen wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 10:07 am
Milo wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:56 am
I think cyberwarfare is a welcome development, it will reward knowledge and innovation and minimize casualties.

In any event, it will only grow in scope and efficacy from here, whether we like it or not.

I agree with you Milo. Cyber is the only power greater than a nuclear bomb. You can't even have a functioning electricity system, let alone a nuclear program, if you have an enemy with superior cyber warfare capabilities. The Iranians have belatedly discovered this after investing untold billions in their nuclear program and recently in their ballistic missile program. Every thing they have built can be paralyzed or destroyed by effective cyber control.

The smartest people drafted into the Israeli army have gone into cyber for many years, if not decades, by now. These are the warriors that matter most now, and the pilots of the airforce, of course. While Qassem Soleimani wasted billions and years of effort recruiting poor, ignorant Shiite jihadis to take over collapsing Arab countries, a whole new world of warfare was dawning, and he was out of his depth. Supposedly, he left school at the age of 16. So, although he was a very intelligent man, and personally brave, none of that mattered. He was bogged down with the mythology of the jihadi and his kalachnikov rifle running suicide attacks.

General Patton remarked during WWII that you don't win wars by dying for your country. You win wars by making some other son of a bitch die for HIS country. Soleimani cherished martyrdom, his own and that of his countryman. According to Patton, that is the quickest way to lose a war against a determined foe. The Arabs are not determined, they give up very quickly, as anyone can see. They were very intimidated by all those Shiite potential martyrs. Israel is another kettle of fish entirely. Soleimani was very mistaken in his view of Israeli Jews, just like the Europeans. They deserve to sit in Geneva together and rot away negotiating another useless agreement that will soon be forgotten.
Showed the movie “Patton” to my wife for the first time just the other day, she thought it was amazing.

But in a way, Iran would not be much better off if they did invest. The kind of people who can create and innovate these kind of systems don’t do well in stratified, totalitarian societies. That’s another great benefit. As with nuclear technology, Iran might buy the tech and also rent the people, but then they’re always paying too much to merely come late to the party.

Of course, there will always be many who think that it’s about things not people. They will think that because Iran buys facilities and plonks them down in the middle of a feudal theocracy, they are somehow the equal of others who truly developed them, but I won’t be one of them.

Ellen
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by Ellen » Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:55 am

"Of course, there will always be many who think that it’s about things not people. They will think that because Iran buys facilities and plonks them down in the middle of a feudal theocracy, they are somehow the equal of others who truly developed them, but I won’t be one of them."

You are absolutely right about that comment, but the Iranians, unlike the Arabs, understand that they need to have a homegrown scientific class willing and able to develop technologies from scratch or from easily obtainable platform technologies. That is why the theocracy has built several very good universities that produce first-class engineers and scientists (Shariff University, for example in Teheran, and 3 others). The problem, as you point out, is that people who are smart and creative - especially in technical subjects - can easily emigrate elsewhere and live a more rewarding life with greater personal freedom.

Iranians are nationalistic and of course, they would prefer to stay in their own country and contribute to the flourishing of Iranian society. The fact that Iran has suffered such a huge brain drain to Western societies over the last 40 years is a sign of exactly what you pointed out. Theocratic totalitarian societies don't retain their best minds. This is another reason, along with Israeli sabotage, that the Mullah's Iran has not yet developed a nuclear bomb or a high level cyber capability. They have the talent, but most of it runs away.

Compare that to Saudi Arabia, their supposed great Sunni rival. The Saudis have produced no significant intellectual or scientific class in 70 years of great oil wealth. They buy everything off the shelf from more developed societies. After spending half a trillion dollars on US weapons over the last 50 years, look at the performance of their army in Yemen, or their complete inability to defend their oil facilities from Iranian missiles. This shows the drawback of buying technology with no grasp of how it works.

Iran can be a successful civilization in the Middle East and an ally of the US and Israel, but not under the present theocracy. The fact that the Obamoids and Europeans are throwing a lifeline to these tyrants and neanderthals, says a lot about their cowardice and immorality. And the complete absence of their long-term vision of how Iran will evolve in the future. Fools, all of them.

neverfail
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by neverfail » Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:41 pm

Ellen wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:55 am

Iran can be a successful civilization in the Middle East and an ally of the US and Israel, but not under the present theocracy. The fact that the Obamoids and Europeans are throwing a lifeline to these tyrants and neanderthals, says a lot about their cowardice and immorality. And the complete absence of their long-term vision of how Iran will evolve in the future. Fools, all of them.
I have already had my say on this Ellen. I see the Europeans along with the two most recent US Democrats administrations as wiser in this than ever paranoid Israel along with the Trump administration: all too willingly manipulated in matters of policy as it was by the Jewish lobby.

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