Naughty Israelis?

Discussion of current events
Jim the Moron
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by Jim the Moron » Tue Apr 13, 2021 7:06 pm

neverfail wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:41 pm
Ellen wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:55 am

Iran can be a successful civilization in the Middle East and an ally of the US and Israel, but not under the present theocracy. The fact that the Obamoids and Europeans are throwing a lifeline to these tyrants and neanderthals, says a lot about their cowardice and immorality. And the complete absence of their long-term vision of how Iran will evolve in the future. Fools, all of them.
I have already had my say on this Ellen. I see the Europeans along with the two most recent US Democrats administrations as wiser in this than ever paranoid Israel along with the Trump administration: all too willingly manipulated in matters of policy as it was by the Jewish lobby.

We can now officially place neverfail in the top ranks of folks admiring the incompetent Obama/Biden kiss-ass approach to Iranian matters. The groveling, cowardly Europeans fall right in line. The belligerent manchild had things right.

Ellen
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by Ellen » Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:08 pm

neverfail wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:41 pm
Ellen wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 12:55 am

Iran can be a successful civilization in the Middle East and an ally of the US and Israel, but not under the present theocracy. The fact that the Obamoids and Europeans are throwing a lifeline to these tyrants and neanderthals, says a lot about their cowardice and immorality. And the complete absence of their long-term vision of how Iran will evolve in the future. Fools, all of them.
I have already had my say on this Ellen. I see the Europeans along with the two most recent US Democrats administrations as wiser in this than ever paranoid Israel along with the Trump administration: all too willingly manipulated in matters of policy as it was by the Jewish lobby.
You don't live in the Middle East, NF, so you don't care about the lives lost and the destruction of entire countries that the Iranians are causing. So be it for your morals. But, if you lived here, you would know who is the main cause of instability and destruction - it isn't Israel and it's not even Saudi Arabia that gets blamed for the Yemen disaster. It's the theocratic regime under Iran.

I know you don't care about Arab lives, or about Israeli lives either. But, as a analytical person, you should ask yourself a question. Why have the few Arab states who have money and/or influence (Saudi, UAE, Egypt) thrown in their lot in with Israel, whom they were trying to destroy for the better part of 73 years? They invented a Palestinian cause out of thin air in order to use it as a weapon against Israel, and now they have abandoned it in public view of the entire world, thus leading to all sorts of presidents trooping to Jerusalem and promising to move their embassies to Israel's capital city, which was not recognized for all these years due to Arab blackmail. This is an astonishing and humiliating about-face (volte-face, in diplomatic discourse) for the Arabs. They are doing it because an entire political order of artificially created Arab states is teetering on the brink of collapse.

The Europeans, who invented this ludricous political arrangement, have bailed out of their so-called "international responsiblities" and are now lining up to do business with the country they view as the winner in the Sunni vs Shiite sweepstakes. You view this behavior as pragmatic? as rationale? As a realistic, stabilizing plan? Donald Trump understood the situation a lot better than you, then. All of this attempt to curry favor with a tyrannical regime whose days are numbered will come to naught. And the whole lot of you will look very stupid in the not to distant future. Trump, amazingly, will look like an intelligent man who understood the real balance of power. I look forward to that day. Trump did have some redeeming qualities, and one of them was the ability to understand who has power and who doesn't. Who can wield it and who can't. And who is just faking it behind a facade of emply bluster. That's your team NF - the empty bluster team. You and the Iranians.

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Sertorio
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by Sertorio » Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:16 am

Jim and Ellen,

The hard line promoted by Trump did indeed wonders. From an Iran which accepted not to develop nuclear weapons we went to an Iran enriching uranium to 60%, on its way to 90%. By now we may be sure that Iran knows how to make nuclear weapons and how to deliver them to the enemy. Once they decide to make them it may be a question of months until they exist for real. With Iran, just like with North Korea, the hard line does not work. As much as one may dislike the governments of those countries, the only intelligent road is that of diplomacy and integration in the world economy. The moment their prosperity depends on reasonable behaviour, those countries will stop being a threat to anyone. And relatively prosperous peoples will not be willing to continue putting up with tyrannical regimes. For countries like Iran and North Korea human rights are a long term project, which cannot be imposed from abroad. And as far as Israel is concerned, the Israeli government and its policies are the greatest threat to its existence. The creation of a truly secular state in Israel would be the first step towards making Israel acceptable to most of the Muslim world. Muslim holy sites in Jerusalem is what matters to Muslims, not the existence of Israel or a Palestinian state. Put them under the supervision of someone like the king of Jordan, allow free access to Muslims from all countries, and Iran will leave Israel in peace.

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dagbay
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by dagbay » Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:00 pm

1.It seems clear now that the destruction in Natanz was caused by explosives not bytes.
2. Iranian officials seem to imply that as much as 150kg of high explosives were placed with precision at a point where the damage would be most extensive. Killing the power infrastructure as well as causing untold damage to thousands of centrifuges. Wit the sudden shutdown.
3. Iran's ayatollahs must be very concerned as would be the people involved in the nuclear program. Realizing that Iran is porous and that clandestine operatives can come do whatever the want and leave without trace.
4. Iranian terrorist allies in Leban Syria Gaza and Yemen must be recalculating their moves. They may be enjoying the favor of Teheran for now but for how long?
5.The Iranian leadership threatened to leave the talks - an empty threat as the have lost a major asset and are weaker than before. Leaving they will play straight into Trump's trap. Placed there before he left office. Staying in the talks they will be limited and may be even the Obamabidens will be forced to take a tougher position.

Re: Those Arabs who happen to live in Judea and Sumeria, the end of the road seems in sight as the Hashemite monarchy is wobbling as it is close to collapse.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

neverfail
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by neverfail » Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:52 pm

Ellen wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 9:08 pm
neverfail wrote:
Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:41 pm


I have already had my say on this Ellen. I see the Europeans along with the two most recent US Democrats administrations as wiser in this than ever paranoid Israel along with the Trump administration: all too willingly manipulated in matters of policy as it was by the Jewish lobby.
You don't live in the Middle East, NF, so you don't care about the lives lost and the destruction of entire countries that the Iranians are causing. So be it for your morals. But, if you lived here, you would know who is the main cause of instability and destruction - it isn't Israel and it's not even Saudi Arabia that gets blamed for the Yemen disaster. It's the theocratic regime under Iran.

I know you don't care about Arab lives, or about Israeli lives either. But, as a analytical person, you should ask yourself a question. Why have the few Arab states who have money and/or influence (Saudi, UAE, Egypt) thrown in their lot in with Israel, whom they were trying to destroy for the better part of 73 years? They invented a Palestinian cause out of thin air in order to use it as a weapon against Israel, and now they have abandoned it in public view of the entire world, thus leading to all sorts of presidents trooping to Jerusalem and promising to move their embassies to Israel's capital city, which was not recognized for all these years due to Arab blackmail. This is an astonishing and humiliating about-face (volte-face, in diplomatic discourse) for the Arabs. They are doing it because an entire political order of artificially created Arab states is teetering on the brink of collapse.

The Europeans, who invented this ludricous political arrangement, have bailed out of their so-called "international responsiblities" and are now lining up to do business with the country they view as the winner in the Sunni vs Shiite sweepstakes. You view this behavior as pragmatic? as rationale? As a realistic, stabilizing plan? Donald Trump understood the situation a lot better than you, then. All of this attempt to curry favor with a tyrannical regime whose days are numbered will come to naught. And the whole lot of you will look very stupid in the not to distant future. Trump, amazingly, will look like an intelligent man who understood the real balance of power. I look forward to that day. Trump did have some redeeming qualities, and one of them was the ability to understand who has power and who doesn't. Who can wield it and who can't. And who is just faking it behind a facade of emply bluster. That's your team NF - the empty bluster team. You and the Iranians.
It seems that my (red shaded) earlier statement statement stung you to judge by the highly emotive response: including judgemental (and inaccurate) accusations (violet shaded) about my person incorporated into your response.

My old man when he was alive had a saying that went "truth hurts!".

The Palestinian cause (green shaded) was not "invented" by Israel's enemies but was created by the state of Israel itself. Its roots lie in the days of the British Mandate when the local Arabs started to realise that they were being outpopulated by all of the Jewish settlers that were pouring in from abroad. That was compounded by the mass-evacuation of Arab residents during the first Arab_Israeli War (1948) when property abandoned by these refugees was confiscated and used to house displaced Jewish refugees pouring in from abroad - often to the consternation of the British administrators. I am not even suggesting that under the circumstances the fledgling Jewish state was not justified in doing this; however it still would have served to confirm the impression of the Palestinian Arab former Arab property owners but now destitute refugees that the State of Israel was/is an enemy alien behemoth out to disposses and crush them. (Try to put yourself in their shoes if you have the imagination to do so Ellen.)

The State of Israel has not even let up on them now. The Palestinians have no terrestial basis for a state of their own left to them apart from the West Bank remnant of their traditional range: and the State of Israel shows its contempt for their rights even to that; crowding them out by sanctioning the construction of Jewish settlements on the West Bank - to house communities of Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox Jews: who I believe that among Jewry are the real fire eaters when it comes to harbouring a sense of entitlement about a pre-emptive right to be owners and occupants of the entire Holy Land.

It might well be true that neighbouring Arab states lent support to the Palestinian cause as a handy stick to beat Israel with but that does not mean that Palestinian grievances are not for real.

Apart from that; as I mentioned above I have already had my say on the rest.

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Sertorio
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by Sertorio » Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:08 am

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:16 am
Jim and Ellen,

The hard line promoted by Trump did indeed wonders. From an Iran which accepted not to develop nuclear weapons we went to an Iran enriching uranium to 60%, on its way to 90%. By now we may be sure that Iran knows how to make nuclear weapons and how to deliver them to the enemy. Once they decide to make them it may be a question of months until they exist for real. With Iran, just like with North Korea, the hard line does not work. As much as one may dislike the governments of those countries, the only intelligent road is that of diplomacy and integration in the world economy. The moment their prosperity depends on reasonable behaviour, those countries will stop being a threat to anyone. And relatively prosperous peoples will not be willing to continue putting up with tyrannical regimes. For countries like Iran and North Korea human rights are a long term project, which cannot be imposed from abroad. And as far as Israel is concerned, the Israeli government and its policies are the greatest threat to its existence. The creation of a truly secular state in Israel would be the first step towards making Israel acceptable to most of the Muslim world. Muslim holy sites in Jerusalem is what matters to Muslims, not the existence of Israel or a Palestinian state. Put them under the supervision of someone like the king of Jordan, allow free access to Muslims from all countries, and Iran will leave Israel in peace.
Sometimes I wonder why I bother trying to reason about issues like Israel. My thoughts may be of some use or maybe they are not, but I had hoped they might encourage some discussion beyond the usual exchange of platitudes. Or maybe I tend to overrate the quality of my reasoning. Nobody responds because what I say is not worthy of any response... :(

Jim the Moron
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by Jim the Moron » Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:18 am

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:08 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:16 am
Jim and Ellen,

The hard line promoted by Trump did indeed wonders. From an Iran which accepted not to develop nuclear weapons we went to an Iran enriching uranium to 60%, on its way to 90%. By now we may be sure that Iran knows how to make nuclear weapons and how to deliver them to the enemy. Once they decide to make them it may be a question of months until they exist for real. With Iran, just like with North Korea, the hard line does not work. As much as one may dislike the governments of those countries, the only intelligent road is that of diplomacy and integration in the world economy. The moment their prosperity depends on reasonable behaviour, those countries will stop being a threat to anyone. And relatively prosperous peoples will not be willing to continue putting up with tyrannical regimes. For countries like Iran and North Korea human rights are a long term project, which cannot be imposed from abroad. And as far as Israel is concerned, the Israeli government and its policies are the greatest threat to its existence. The creation of a truly secular state in Israel would be the first step towards making Israel acceptable to most of the Muslim world. Muslim holy sites in Jerusalem is what matters to Muslims, not the existence of Israel or a Palestinian state. Put them under the supervision of someone like the king of Jordan, allow free access to Muslims from all countries, and Iran will leave Israel in peace.
Sometimes I wonder why I bother trying to reason about issues like Israel. My thoughts may be of some use or maybe they are not, but I had hoped they might encourage some discussion beyond the usual exchange of platitudes. Or maybe I tend to overrate the quality of my reasoning. Nobody responds because what I say is not worthy of any response... :(

I know from reading your posts that you are generally sympathetic towards Jewish people and their causes. But there are issues that I prefer leaving to our two posters intimately familiar with Israeli matters. Nevertheless, I am baffled by your frequently voiced assertion that Israel should become a secular State. Where is the outcry against KSA, Iran, Turkey, etc for being declared Muslim States?

Ellen
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by Ellen » Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:33 am

"Sometimes I wonder why I bother trying to reason about issues like Israel. My thoughts may be of some use or maybe they are not, but I had hoped they might encourage some discussion beyond the usual exchange of platitudes. Or maybe I tend to overrate the quality of my reasoning. Nobody responds because what I say is not worthy of any response.."

The quality of your reasoning leaves something to be desired, yes, I am glad you admit that. If you discuss European opposition to Israel, the reasons change as the circumstances change, and it has nothing to do with logic. It's based on an underlying animus.

People of your ilk, and you yourself actually, used to say that the Arab opposition to Israel is because of the injustice to the Palestinians (read NF's comments). That was the explanation for all the wars, boycotts, incitement, hatred etc. Now, it is clear to even the most biased European that the Arabs don't give a fiddle for the Palestinians - they were merely useful cannon fodder and pawns and now they have lost their usefulness.

So now it is because of the Muslim Holy Places. And if it wouldn't be that, it would be something else, like Israel's alliance with Iran once the clerical regime disappears. I already see this excuse appearing in the Saudi press.

The Muslim Holy places are safer in israeli hands that they would ever be in the hands of any Arab regime. No Muslim is prevented from coming on pilgrimage as long they are not a terrorist. The Hashemites have no claim to be the custodians of these sites, by the way, they were given custodianship by the British as a bribe, and now by the Israelis, likewise to prop up their teetering throne. If anyone has a claim to be a custodian of the Mosque in Jerusalem, it would be the ruler of Turkey, who was the rightful custodian for 400 years of the Ottoman Empire. I don't see anyone suggesting that Erdogan be given that honor!

The Muslim opposition to Israel is a religious one, not a national one (ie, Palestnian rights) or lack of access to the holy sites. The Mosque in Jerusalem was largely abandoned and unattended for centuries. It was never considered an important place by Muslims, only Mecca and Medina are real holy cities. It became important only when East Jerusalem was conquered by the Israeli army in 1967. But here is the reilgious point. It is part of Islamic jurisprodence that land conqeured under the banner of jihad by Muslim armies, must never be given back to the infidels who held it previously. This is an article of faith. The loss of Jerusalem falls under this category, so does the loss of Andalucia to the iberian Catholics (yes, including your country). So does the loss of Northern India, which was once ruled by Muslim conquerors.

So why don't the Muslims go on and on about Northern India and Andalucia, like they do about Israel? Because who wants to take on 1 billion Hindus? Who wants to take on the Spanish and Portuguese who are part of the EU which was once viewed as a formidable power. This is too much to handle. They thought taking on a weak and small Israel, populated by Jewish refugees and Holocaust survivors was a slam dunk. Apparently not, much to their dismay.

As for NF"s comment. The Palestinians came to be in the Holy Land because of the Arab conquest of the 7th century. Arab Muslims come from Arabia, not anywhere else. They took by force a land that did not belong to them, thinking that the rightful owners were dispersed, persecuted, not capable of mounting any military effort at reconquest. For 1400 years, one could say they were right. Who would ever imagine at any point in that long sad history of the Jews, that someday there would be a Jewish state, not only surviving but flourishing and now a regional power, as the Muslim states surrounding us fall to pieces, one by one. We just celebrated the 73rd Independence day of the State of Israel, and many people commented on this. No one could envision such a miracle, especially after the Holocaust. Least of all the Palestinians, who were psychologically unprepared for what was about to befall them.

I completely understand the point of view of the Palestinians. If I were one of them, I would share their view too. But, I am not one of them. And they are not one of us. Yes, the world is filled with us and them situations, everywhere you look. Universalism is a fraudulent ideology. Different people have different cultures and different dreams. The Palestinians view themselves as victims of Zionist colonialism, whereas we view them as conquerors of our land that have outlived their welcome. This is an irreconciliable conflict, that will not be negotiated. One side will win and the other lose and bear the consequences. That is how the cookie crumbles. No amount of speechifying by Europeans and Amerians will change the inherent nature of this conflict, so don't bore us with speeches about sympathy and pity. No one had sympathy for the Jews of Europe in their hour of need, so don't expect me to sympathize with those who want to destroy our homeland.

Prof. Vali Nasr of Johns Hopkins (an Iranian emigre) recently wrote an essay in which he said, "The Arab moment has passed." The future of the Middle East will be determined by 3 nonArab powers - Turkey, Israel, and Iran. No one who has responded to this comment has disagreed with his conclusion about the Arabs. Even the Saudi newspaper opinion writers remorsefully agree with him. This is part of the struggle we are involved in. Nasr is not a Zionist, he is a sympathizer with the theocracy of Iran. Yet, he understands that the conflicts in the MidEast are winner takes all affairs, and the Arabs are destined to lose. Spare us your crocodile tears.

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Sertorio
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by Sertorio » Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:39 am

Jim the Moron wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:18 am
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Apr 16, 2021 1:08 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Apr 14, 2021 2:16 am
Jim and Ellen,

The hard line promoted by Trump did indeed wonders. From an Iran which accepted not to develop nuclear weapons we went to an Iran enriching uranium to 60%, on its way to 90%. By now we may be sure that Iran knows how to make nuclear weapons and how to deliver them to the enemy. Once they decide to make them it may be a question of months until they exist for real. With Iran, just like with North Korea, the hard line does not work. As much as one may dislike the governments of those countries, the only intelligent road is that of diplomacy and integration in the world economy. The moment their prosperity depends on reasonable behaviour, those countries will stop being a threat to anyone. And relatively prosperous peoples will not be willing to continue putting up with tyrannical regimes. For countries like Iran and North Korea human rights are a long term project, which cannot be imposed from abroad. And as far as Israel is concerned, the Israeli government and its policies are the greatest threat to its existence. The creation of a truly secular state in Israel would be the first step towards making Israel acceptable to most of the Muslim world. Muslim holy sites in Jerusalem is what matters to Muslims, not the existence of Israel or a Palestinian state. Put them under the supervision of someone like the king of Jordan, allow free access to Muslims from all countries, and Iran will leave Israel in peace.
Sometimes I wonder why I bother trying to reason about issues like Israel. My thoughts may be of some use or maybe they are not, but I had hoped they might encourage some discussion beyond the usual exchange of platitudes. Or maybe I tend to overrate the quality of my reasoning. Nobody responds because what I say is not worthy of any response... :(

I know from reading your posts that you are generally sympathetic towards Jewish people and their causes. But there are issues that I prefer leaving to our two posters intimately familiar with Israeli matters. Nevertheless, I am baffled by your frequently voiced assertion that Israel should become a secular State. Where is the outcry against KSA, Iran, Turkey, etc for being declared Muslim States?
Of course KSA, Iran and Turkey should become secular states. Turkey could easily do so, Iran would take a bit longer, and KSA is hundreds of years away from it. And the arguments are the same I could use for Israel becoming secular. Except that in the Israeli case it may be a requirement for survival. The problem is that many Jews think that Jewish religion is essential to their identity, while in fact Jewish culture is more than enough. Of course Jewish culture has its roots in Jewish religion, but once fully developed, the culture no longer needs the religion. It doesn't require it being destroyed either, but it must be moved away from the public sphere to the personal one. A person may be religious, a state cannot. Religion is meant for people, not for institutions. As such I, as a descendant of Sephardic Jews, could become an Israeli sharing in the Jewish way of life, but I would never accept being a religious Jew.

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Sertorio
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Re: Naughty Israelis?

Post by Sertorio » Fri Apr 16, 2021 3:07 am

Ellen,

A very thoughtful text which needs time to be fully reasoned.

But I think I can immediately comment on one of your statements:
Yes, the world is filled with us and them situations, everywhere you look. Universalism is a fraudulent ideology. Different people have different cultures and different dreams.
That may be so. But I can't help thinking of us, Portuguese, and our make up. We are the product of the association, mingling, interbreeding, etc., of Celts, Iberians, Phoenicians, Romans, Sueves, Visigoths, Berbers, Jews, Black Africans, Asians... Each of which contributed with their genes, with their languages, with their cultures. And the end result is a pretty homogeneous people, speaking the same language, sharing essentially the same culture. And we are still absorbing new peoples, like Ukrainian and Romanian immigrants. There are no fractures in our society - except the usual social ones - and we all consider ourselves as Portuguese. Not Euro-Portuguese, Afro-Portuguese, Asian-Portuguese, White, Black, Christian, Muslim or Jewish. A Catholic Portuguese is above all Portuguese. And so is a Muslim Portuguese. Or a Black Portuguese. We have had some assimilation problems with the Roma, but I believe even them are finally joining us...

In my opinion that means that you could be an Israeli and be Jewish, or Muslim, or Christian, provided you shared the same values and spoke the same language - Hebrew. Is that impossible? As a Portuguese I think not. But it may take some time and some effort. Mostly it would take the will to achieve it...

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