Can Americans Win Wars?

Discussion of current events
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Milo
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Re: Can Americans Win Wars?

Post by Milo » Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:32 pm

Some people mistake kindness for weakness, in this case they apply it the US.

neverfail
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Re: Can Americans Win Wars?

Post by neverfail » Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:28 pm

Milo wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:32 pm
Some people mistake kindness for weakness, in this case they apply it the US.
Sorry Milo, I don't get it. Could you please explain?

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Milo
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Re: Can Americans Win Wars?

Post by Milo » Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:50 am

neverfail wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 11:28 pm
Milo wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 5:32 pm
Some people mistake kindness for weakness, in this case they apply it the US.
Sorry Milo, I don't get it. Could you please explain?
The main reason the US doesn’t win wars is the restraint in their system means they do not do many things that would quickly win them. Afghanistan is a great example. About 20 nuclear warheads, about 0.003% of their arsenal, and it would be no trouble to anyone.

And all the way down the line: the conduct of their soldiers, the restraint in using any kind of deadly force, their commitment to trying to broker peace with the most despicable of leaders…

Sertorio’s narrative is so completely hypocritical; he’s not alone in spreading though: on the one hand he pines away for a peaceful world, on the other, he sneers at the US for not crushing its enemies.

Of course, he’s not an actual person but some IRA hack.

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Sertorio
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Re: Can Americans Win Wars?

Post by Sertorio » Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:06 am

Milo wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:50 am

The main reason the US doesn’t win wars is the restraint in their system means they do not do many things that would quickly win them. Afghanistan is a great example. About 20 nuclear warheads, about 0.003% of their arsenal, and it would be no trouble to anyone.

And all the way down the line: the conduct of their soldiers, the restraint in using any kind of deadly force, their commitment to trying to broker peace with the most despicable of leaders…
You are a dangerous nut:

Hiroshima and Nagasaki: Killed: 105,000; Injured: 94,000

Korean War: Some 406,000 North Korean civilians were reported to have been killed, 1,594,000 were wounded, and 680,000 were missing.

Vietnam War: Estimates of the number of casualties vary, with one source suggesting up to 3.8 million violent war deaths in Vietnam for the period 1955 to 2002. A detailed demographic study calculated 791,000–1,141,000 war-related deaths during the war for all of Vietnam, for both military and civilians. Between 195,000 and 430,000 South Vietnamese civilians died in the war. Extrapolating from a 1969 US intelligence report, Guenter Lewy estimated 65,000 North Vietnamese civilians died in the war. Estimates of civilian deaths caused by American bombing of North Vietnam in Operation Rolling Thunder range from 30,000 to 182,000. A 1974 US Senate subcommittee estimates nearly 1.4 million civilians killed and wounded between 1965 and 1974, and attributed over half as resulting from US and South Vietnamese military action. In addition to that, it is estimated that about 400,000 Vietnamese were killed by the toxic effects of Agent Orange.

Iraqi War: 268,000 - 295,000 people were killed in violence in the Iraq war from March 2003 - Oct. 2018, including 182,272 - 204,575 civilians.

These "light" casualties were due to the conduct of US soldiers, and the restraint in using any kind of deadly force...

If this wasn't so tragic, it would be funny. I know you are a lawyer and that lying is the main tool of your trade, but if this was "restraint", I wonder what the casualties would have been if US soldiers were as bloodthirsty as most people think they are...

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Milo
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Re: Can Americans Win Wars?

Post by Milo » Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:05 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:06 am
Milo wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:50 am

The main reason the US doesn’t win wars is the restraint in their system means they do not do many things that would quickly win them. Afghanistan is a great example. About 20 nuclear warheads, about 0.003% of their arsenal, and it would be no trouble to anyone.

And all the way down the line: the conduct of their soldiers, the restraint in using any kind of deadly force, their commitment to trying to broker peace with the most despicable of leaders…
You are a dangerous nut:

Hiroshima and Nagasaki: Killed: 105,000; Injured: 94,000

Korean War: Some 406,000 North Korean civilians were reported to have been killed, 1,594,000 were wounded, and 680,000 were missing.

Vietnam War: Estimates of the number of casualties vary, with one source suggesting up to 3.8 million violent war deaths in Vietnam for the period 1955 to 2002. A detailed demographic study calculated 791,000–1,141,000 war-related deaths during the war for all of Vietnam, for both military and civilians. Between 195,000 and 430,000 South Vietnamese civilians died in the war. Extrapolating from a 1969 US intelligence report, Guenter Lewy estimated 65,000 North Vietnamese civilians died in the war. Estimates of civilian deaths caused by American bombing of North Vietnam in Operation Rolling Thunder range from 30,000 to 182,000. A 1974 US Senate subcommittee estimates nearly 1.4 million civilians killed and wounded between 1965 and 1974, and attributed over half as resulting from US and South Vietnamese military action. In addition to that, it is estimated that about 400,000 Vietnamese were killed by the toxic effects of Agent Orange.

Iraqi War: 268,000 - 295,000 people were killed in violence in the Iraq war from March 2003 - Oct. 2018, including 182,272 - 204,575 civilians.

These "light" casualties were due to the conduct of US soldiers, and the restraint in using any kind of deadly force...

If this wasn't so tragic, it would be funny. I know you are a lawyer and that lying is the main tool of your trade, but if this was "restraint", I wonder what the casualties would have been if US soldiers were as bloodthirsty as most people think they are...
Well, I do know how to use quotation marks correctly.

neverfail
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Re: Can Americans Win Wars?

Post by neverfail » Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:30 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:06 am

Hiroshima and Nagasaki: Killed: 105,000; Injured: 94,000
War started by the Japanese, not by the Americans.
Korean War: Some 406,000 North Korean civilians were reported to have been killed, 1,594,000 were wounded, and 680,000 were missing.
War inagurated by the North Korean Communist regime with unprovoked invasion of the South and continued by the Communist Chinese when Kim Il Sung's forces roundly defeated as these deserved to be. US led response sanction by a United Nations resolution.
Vietnam War: Estimates of the number of casualties vary, with one source suggesting up to 3.8 million violent war deaths in Vietnam for the period 1955 to 2002. A detailed demographic study calculated 791,000–1,141,000 war-related deaths during the war for all of Vietnam, for both military and civilians. Between 195,000 and 430,000 South Vietnamese civilians died in the war. Extrapolating from a 1969 US intelligence report, Guenter Lewy estimated 65,000 North Vietnamese civilians died in the war. Estimates of civilian deaths caused by American bombing of North Vietnam in Operation Rolling Thunder range from 30,000 to 182,000. A 1974 US Senate subcommittee estimates nearly 1.4 million civilians killed and wounded between 1965 and 1974, and attributed over half as resulting from US and South Vietnamese military action. In addition to that, it is estimated that about 400,000 Vietnamese were killed by the toxic effects of Agent Orange.
Hanoi could have put a stop to that war in its early stages by giving up on its dream of forcing South Vietnam into a unification with it that not everyone wanted: thereby sparing all of those lost lives.
Iraqi War: 268,000 - 295,000 people were killed in violence in the Iraq war from March 2003 - Oct. 2018, including 182,272 - 204,575 civilians.
Saddam Hussein could have spared his countrymen all those deaths and destruction inflicted by US ordinance by surrendering before the fighting started
.........................................................................................................................................

Knowing that they could not match American military might in every case they all had that option open to them but, pig headed obdurate in pursuit of their goals persisted in confronting US military power uncaring about how many lives of their own compatriots were lost to the ensuing, preventable carnage.

It takes two to make a war Sertorio. How much longer is it going to take you to grasp that obvious fact?

Wake up, man!

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cassowary
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Re: Can Americans Win Wars?

Post by cassowary » Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:01 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:50 pm
cassowary wrote:
Sat Apr 10, 2021 11:20 pm
neverfail wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:44 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 2:31 am

Can Americans win wars?

"Sure, American soldiers can still win wars, but it has to be a real war where there is something genuine at stake, like protecting one’s home and family."

That not being the case, the US lost the wars in Korea, Vietnam and Afghanistan. As it would lose any war against Russia or China fought in those countries backyards...
They won the first Gulf War spectacularly.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War
And also the Second Gulf War.
The first Gulf War was a legetimate conflict sanctioned by a United Nations resolution. Saddam Hussein's army had invaded and occupied Kuwait without any threat from this small neighbour to justify such a drastic move. If ever there was a just war it was this one. But the second Gulf War was a mistake based upon wrong information. Instead of resolving a problem it opened up a Pandora's box of woe that continues unabated to this day.

Second Gulf War = the US won the fighting (it was really a no contest) but lost the politics.
Yes, that's true and its because of oBUMa that they lost the politics. All he had to do was to come to an agreement on putting troops in Iraq. Bush II had done all the hard work.
The Imp :D

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cassowary
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Re: Can Americans Win Wars?

Post by cassowary » Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:05 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:30 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:06 am

Hiroshima and Nagasaki: Killed: 105,000; Injured: 94,000
War started by the Japanese, not by the Americans.
Korean War: Some 406,000 North Korean civilians were reported to have been killed, 1,594,000 were wounded, and 680,000 were missing.
War inagurated by the North Korean Communist regime with unprovoked invasion of the South and continued by the Communist Chinese when Kim Il Sung's forces roundly defeated as these deserved to be. US led response sanction by a United Nations resolution.
Vietnam War: Estimates of the number of casualties vary, with one source suggesting up to 3.8 million violent war deaths in Vietnam for the period 1955 to 2002. A detailed demographic study calculated 791,000–1,141,000 war-related deaths during the war for all of Vietnam, for both military and civilians. Between 195,000 and 430,000 South Vietnamese civilians died in the war. Extrapolating from a 1969 US intelligence report, Guenter Lewy estimated 65,000 North Vietnamese civilians died in the war. Estimates of civilian deaths caused by American bombing of North Vietnam in Operation Rolling Thunder range from 30,000 to 182,000. A 1974 US Senate subcommittee estimates nearly 1.4 million civilians killed and wounded between 1965 and 1974, and attributed over half as resulting from US and South Vietnamese military action. In addition to that, it is estimated that about 400,000 Vietnamese were killed by the toxic effects of Agent Orange.
Hanoi could have put a stop to that war in its early stages by giving up on its dream of forcing South Vietnam into a unification with it that not everyone wanted: thereby sparing all of those lost lives.
Iraqi War: 268,000 - 295,000 people were killed in violence in the Iraq war from March 2003 - Oct. 2018, including 182,272 - 204,575 civilians.
Saddam Hussein could have spared his countrymen all those deaths and destruction inflicted by US ordinance by surrendering before the fighting started
.........................................................................................................................................

Knowing that they could not match American military might in every case they all had that option open to them but, pig headed obdurate in pursuit of their goals persisted in confronting US military power uncaring about how many lives of their own compatriots were lost to the ensuing, preventable carnage.

It takes two to make a war Sertorio. How much longer is it going to take you to grasp that obvious fact?

Wake up, man!
Sertorio cannot wake up. He is too brainwashed in the anti-American/Communist faith from the Cold War days when he was a strong supporter of the USSR. Facts cannot penetrate him. Maybe he is too old to change his thinking.
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: Can Americans Win Wars?

Post by neverfail » Mon Apr 12, 2021 9:07 pm

cassowary wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 8:01 pm
Yes, that's true and its because of oBUMa that they lost the politics. All he had to do was to come to an agreement on putting troops in Iraq. Bush II had done all the hard work.
No! The seeds were sown by the Bush administration during and immediately after the invasion. They went into that country with no plan for the subsequent rehabilitation of that country that could possibly work.

One of the stupidist things they did was to disband the Iraq army inherited from Saddam Hussein. Comprised of Sunni Muslims the men enlisted in it had no other way to earn a livelihood other than through their army pay. Many, with nowhere else to go (and with scores to settle with the foreign invader/occupier of their country) then became willing recruits for ISIS.

Bush (an ignorant, ill informed American) sowed the seeds and it was Obama's sorry lot to reap the bitter fruit that had grown from those seeds planted by his predecessor in office. Bush should never have ordered the invasion of Iraq in the first place. No justification for it!

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Sertorio
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Re: Can Americans Win Wars?

Post by Sertorio » Tue Apr 13, 2021 2:40 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 4:30 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 12, 2021 11:06 am

Hiroshima and Nagasaki: Killed: 105,000; Injured: 94,000
War started by the Japanese, not by the Americans.
Korean War: Some 406,000 North Korean civilians were reported to have been killed, 1,594,000 were wounded, and 680,000 were missing.
War inagurated by the North Korean Communist regime with unprovoked invasion of the South and continued by the Communist Chinese when Kim Il Sung's forces roundly defeated as these deserved to be. US led response sanction by a United Nations resolution.
Vietnam War: Estimates of the number of casualties vary, with one source suggesting up to 3.8 million violent war deaths in Vietnam for the period 1955 to 2002. A detailed demographic study calculated 791,000–1,141,000 war-related deaths during the war for all of Vietnam, for both military and civilians. Between 195,000 and 430,000 South Vietnamese civilians died in the war. Extrapolating from a 1969 US intelligence report, Guenter Lewy estimated 65,000 North Vietnamese civilians died in the war. Estimates of civilian deaths caused by American bombing of North Vietnam in Operation Rolling Thunder range from 30,000 to 182,000. A 1974 US Senate subcommittee estimates nearly 1.4 million civilians killed and wounded between 1965 and 1974, and attributed over half as resulting from US and South Vietnamese military action. In addition to that, it is estimated that about 400,000 Vietnamese were killed by the toxic effects of Agent Orange.
Hanoi could have put a stop to that war in its early stages by giving up on its dream of forcing South Vietnam into a unification with it that not everyone wanted: thereby sparing all of those lost lives.
Iraqi War: 268,000 - 295,000 people were killed in violence in the Iraq war from March 2003 - Oct. 2018, including 182,272 - 204,575 civilians.
Saddam Hussein could have spared his countrymen all those deaths and destruction inflicted by US ordinance by surrendering before the fighting started
.........................................................................................................................................

Knowing that they could not match American military might in every case they all had that option open to them but, pig headed obdurate in pursuit of their goals persisted in confronting US military power uncaring about how many lives of their own compatriots were lost to the ensuing, preventable carnage.

It takes two to make a war Sertorio. How much longer is it going to take you to grasp that obvious fact?

Wake up, man!
Neverfail, I was commenting on Milo's defense of the American "restraint" in the use of lethal force...A restraint comparable to that of Gengis Khan and his Mongol horde...But at least Gengis Khan wasn't a religious nut, nor did he kill in the name of any god...

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