Philippines government learns that it has only one ally to back it against China.

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Doc
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Re: Philippines government learns that it has only one ally to back it against China.

Post by Doc » Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:53 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:41 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:21 am

The hope for the future of democracy lies in India. In the meantime, an alliance of democracies must buy time for India for it to put its house in order. An expansion of NATO to include, India, Japan and Australia. Trade barriers to encourage factories to move out of China to India and elsewhere, growth policies in western countries to boost GDP (ie low taxes, low spending fiscal policies).

...............................................................................................................

Sertorio, your glee at the rise of China tells me that behind every leftist is a totalitarian screaming to get out, as what David Horowitz said. Xi reminds me of Hitler. Xi puts people in concentration camps like Hitler did. Yet you support him. I have often said that the Nazis were a leftist party. Your support of Xi confirms what I said.
Warmongers like you never contributed to peace anywhere. All you do is killing and maiming. Unfortunately for people like you, warmongers are sometimes the first casualties of the wars they start...
Excuse me? The CCP are the ones grabbing territory as if they were the Nazi Third Reich
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Sertorio
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Re: Philippines government learns that it has only one ally to back it against China.

Post by Sertorio » Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:03 pm

Doc wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:53 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:41 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:21 am

The hope for the future of democracy lies in India. In the meantime, an alliance of democracies must buy time for India for it to put its house in order. An expansion of NATO to include, India, Japan and Australia. Trade barriers to encourage factories to move out of China to India and elsewhere, growth policies in western countries to boost GDP (ie low taxes, low spending fiscal policies).

...............................................................................................................

Sertorio, your glee at the rise of China tells me that behind every leftist is a totalitarian screaming to get out, as what David Horowitz said. Xi reminds me of Hitler. Xi puts people in concentration camps like Hitler did. Yet you support him. I have often said that the Nazis were a leftist party. Your support of Xi confirms what I said.
Warmongers like you never contributed to peace anywhere. All you do is killing and maiming. Unfortunately for people like you, warmongers are sometimes the first casualties of the wars they start...
Excuse me? The CCP are the ones grabbing territory as if they were the Nazi Third Reich
What territories are those? How big are they? And they belong to whom?...

neverfail
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Re: Philippines government learns that it has only one ally to back it against China.

Post by neverfail » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:05 pm

cassowary wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:21 am

The hope for the future of democracy lies in India. In the meantime, an alliance of democracies must buy time for India for it to put its house in order. An expansion of NATO to include, India, Japan and Australia. Trade barriers to encourage factories to move out of China to India and elsewhere, growth policies in western countries to boost GDP (ie low taxes, low spending fiscal policies).

...............................................................................................................

Sertorio, your glee at the rise of China tells me that behind every leftist is a totalitarian screaming to get out, as what David Horowitz said. Xi reminds me of Hitler. Xi puts people in concentration camps like Hitler did. Yet you support him. I have often said that the Nazis were a leftist party. Your support of Xi confirms what I said.


Cass
, ignoring the misplaced glee of our website's armchair socialist (whose enthusiasm for regimes like those of the PRC and the Russian Federation would be in a large measure due to the fact that he does not need to endure living in either one of them :D ) : I consider NATO to be an inadequate alliance vehicle given that it is both Europe focused and overextended having taken in too many additional states to be wieldly. A new alliance focused on Asia-Pacific would probably work better.

Here I foresee problems. No one has yet proposed including the Philippines inm the QUAD grouping and i can understand why. This country's defence forces are no match for those of the PRC. I believe they are now doing a belated upgrade but only after decades of neglect by successive governments who starve their defence forces of adequate funding. More likely the Philippines could be a drain on QUAD resources rather than a contributor to its collective strength. Yet this archipellago country potentially represents a gaping hole in any offshore containment wall inagurated to keep the PRC (and Russia) out of the Pacific.

Other problems include: Japan. pacifist constitution which their government and public opinion stand by. Also hemmed in by no less than three neighbouring nuclear armed powers (China, Russia and North Korea) the Japanese establishment, with memories of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945) would have a deeply embedded risk aversion for anything that might upset these potentially nasty neighbours.

South Korea? Invited to join but stridently objects to belonging to any alliance that would link it to Japan. Bitter historical memories of past Imperial Japanese occupation. Koreans give the impression they would almost prefer to live under the thumb of China than in the shadow of Japan.

Taiwan? Deserving of inclusion but not internationally recognised even by the USA as a soverign state.

Australia? Arguably the most willing potential recruit for such a grouping. Within the QUAD foursome who would logically form the nucleus of the alliance Australia is arguably "the dwarf".

India? A continental state and the only QUAD member with a shared terrestial border with the PRC India has its hands tied with enmities with neighbouring countries - most significently with Pakistan.

Finally the USA. By far the most mighty power for inclusion in this alliance and the one to whom the status of leadership would have to go. Two problems with the USA are (1) this country has a lot of its militaary strength scattered around all sorts of odd corners of the world and (2) instability at the top. What if the US public should elect another isolationist fuckwit president in the Donald Trump mould who does not want to lead? Since this has happened once then surely it could happen again.

Cass, I fully agree that an alliance of democracies in the Asia-Pacific region to contain China's great power ambitions would be highly desirable but given the problems I foresee as listed above (and there are more I have not mentioned) I have grave doubts about whether it could work.

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Re: Philippines government learns that it has only one ally to back it against China.

Post by Milo » Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:13 pm

neverfail wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:05 pm
cassowary wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:21 am

The hope for the future of democracy lies in India. In the meantime, an alliance of democracies must buy time for India for it to put its house in order. An expansion of NATO to include, India, Japan and Australia. Trade barriers to encourage factories to move out of China to India and elsewhere, growth policies in western countries to boost GDP (ie low taxes, low spending fiscal policies).

...............................................................................................................

Sertorio, your glee at the rise of China tells me that behind every leftist is a totalitarian screaming to get out, as what David Horowitz said. Xi reminds me of Hitler. Xi puts people in concentration camps like Hitler did. Yet you support him. I have often said that the Nazis were a leftist party. Your support of Xi confirms what I said.


Cass
, ignoring the misplaced glee of our website's armchair socialist (whose enthusiasm for regimes like those of the PRC and the Russian Federation would be in a large measure due to the fact that he does not need to endure living in either one of them :D ) : I consider NATO to be an inadequate alliance vehicle given that it is both Europe focused and overextended having taken in too many additional states to be wieldly. A new alliance focused on Asia-Pacific would probably work better.

Here I foresee problems. No one has yet proposed including the Philippines inm the QUAD grouping and i can understand why. This country's defence forces are no match for those of the PRC. I believe they are now doing a belated upgrade but only after decades of neglect by successive governments who starve their defence forces of adequate funding. More likely the Philippines could be a drain on QUAD resources rather than a contributor to its collective strength. Yet this archipellago country potentially represents a gaping hole in any offshore containment wall inagurated to keep the PRC (and Russia) out of the Pacific.

Other problems include: Japan. pacifist constitution which their government and public opinion stand by. Also hemmed in by no less than three neighbouring nuclear armed powers (China, Russia and North Korea) the Japanese establishment, with memories of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945) would have a deeply embedded risk aversion for anything that might upset these potentially nasty neighbours.

South Korea? Invited to join but stridently objects to belonging to any alliance that would link it to Japan. Bitter historical memories of past Imperial Japanese occupation. Koreans give the impression they would almost prefer to live under the thumb of China than in the shadow of Japan.

Taiwan? Deserving of inclusion but not internationally recognised even by the USA as a soverign state.

Australia? Arguably the most willing potential recruit for such a grouping. Within the QUAD foursome who would logically form the nucleus of the alliance Australia is arguably "the dwarf".

India? A continental state and the only QUAD member with a shared terrestial border with the PRC India has its hands tied with enmities with neighbouring countries - most significently with Pakistan.

Finally the USA. By far the most mighty power for inclusion in this alliance and the one to whom the status of leadership would have to go. Two problems with the USA are (1) this country has a lot of its militaary strength scattered around all sorts of odd corners of the world and (2) instability at the top. What if the US public should elect another isolationist fuckwit president in the Donald Trump mould who does not want to lead? Since this has happened once then surely it could happen again.

Cass, I fully agree that an alliance of democracies in the Asia-Pacific region to contain China's great power ambitions would be highly desirable but given the problems I foresee as listed above (and there are more I have not mentioned) I have grave doubts about whether it could work.
As I said before, SEATO and CENTO fell apart for good reason.

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Re: Philippines government learns that it has only one ally to back it against China.

Post by Doc » Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:24 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:03 pm
Doc wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:53 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:41 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:21 am

The hope for the future of democracy lies in India. In the meantime, an alliance of democracies must buy time for India for it to put its house in order. An expansion of NATO to include, India, Japan and Australia. Trade barriers to encourage factories to move out of China to India and elsewhere, growth policies in western countries to boost GDP (ie low taxes, low spending fiscal policies).

...............................................................................................................

Sertorio, your glee at the rise of China tells me that behind every leftist is a totalitarian screaming to get out, as what David Horowitz said. Xi reminds me of Hitler. Xi puts people in concentration camps like Hitler did. Yet you support him. I have often said that the Nazis were a leftist party. Your support of Xi confirms what I said.
Warmongers like you never contributed to peace anywhere. All you do is killing and maiming. Unfortunately for people like you, warmongers are sometimes the first casualties of the wars they start...
Excuse me? The CCP are the ones grabbing territory as if they were the Nazi Third Reich
What territories are those? How big are they? And they belong to whom?...
South China Sea. Phillipines Vietnam Brunei Malaysia and Indonesia
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Sertorio
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Re: Philippines government learns that it has only one ally to back it against China.

Post by Sertorio » Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:22 am

Doc wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:24 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:03 pm
Doc wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:53 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:41 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:21 am

The hope for the future of democracy lies in India. In the meantime, an alliance of democracies must buy time for India for it to put its house in order. An expansion of NATO to include, India, Japan and Australia. Trade barriers to encourage factories to move out of China to India and elsewhere, growth policies in western countries to boost GDP (ie low taxes, low spending fiscal policies).

...............................................................................................................

Sertorio, your glee at the rise of China tells me that behind every leftist is a totalitarian screaming to get out, as what David Horowitz said. Xi reminds me of Hitler. Xi puts people in concentration camps like Hitler did. Yet you support him. I have often said that the Nazis were a leftist party. Your support of Xi confirms what I said.
Warmongers like you never contributed to peace anywhere. All you do is killing and maiming. Unfortunately for people like you, warmongers are sometimes the first casualties of the wars they start...
Excuse me? The CCP are the ones grabbing territory as if they were the Nazi Third Reich
What territories are those? How big are they? And they belong to whom?...
South China Sea. Phillipines Vietnam Brunei Malaysia and Indonesia
Let's assume that China has no indisputable right to some of the islands/islets on the South China Sea. If it takes them over it will be at least a doubtful action, which may infringe on other countries (disputed) rights. But that will not endanger any of the neighbouring countries. And any local resources, such as gas and oil, are no longer of vital importance to anyone, seeing that we are moving towards a greener economy. To China those islands are important because they will enable it to better protect its southern flank.

The funny thing is that while people make a fuss about those minor possible violations by China, they tend to ignore, for instance, Israel's taking over the Golan and much of the West Bank. It's not the potential land grab in the South China Sea that bothers those people, but the fact that it is China doing it. And such possible violations by China may be used as an argument against Chinese evil intentions. Has anyone ever asked what entitled the US to grab Hawaii? Did the Hawaiian people welcome the destruction of their independence? Do Americans condemn the way the US stole huge territories from Mexico? Some people may dislike China and its regime, but as a major power China is in no way worse than the US. Of course Americans and those who identify with the Anglo empire (the Five Eyes...) may regret being sidelined by China, but I expect much of the world to welcome such a change.

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Re: Philippines government learns that it has only one ally to back it against China.

Post by cassowary » Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:43 am

neverfail wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 4:05 pm
cassowary wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:21 am

The hope for the future of democracy lies in India. In the meantime, an alliance of democracies must buy time for India for it to put its house in order. An expansion of NATO to include, India, Japan and Australia. Trade barriers to encourage factories to move out of China to India and elsewhere, growth policies in western countries to boost GDP (ie low taxes, low spending fiscal policies).

...............................................................................................................

Sertorio, your glee at the rise of China tells me that behind every leftist is a totalitarian screaming to get out, as what David Horowitz said. Xi reminds me of Hitler. Xi puts people in concentration camps like Hitler did. Yet you support him. I have often said that the Nazis were a leftist party. Your support of Xi confirms what I said.


Cass
, ignoring the misplaced glee of our website's armchair socialist (whose enthusiasm for regimes like those of the PRC and the Russian Federation would be in a large measure due to the fact that he does not need to endure living in either one of them :D ) : I consider NATO to be an inadequate alliance vehicle given that it is both Europe focused and overextended having taken in too many additional states to be wieldly. A new alliance focused on Asia-Pacific would probably work better.

Here I foresee problems. No one has yet proposed including the Philippines inm the QUAD grouping and i can understand why. This country's defence forces are no match for those of the PRC. I believe they are now doing a belated upgrade but only after decades of neglect by successive governments who starve their defence forces of adequate funding. More likely the Philippines could be a drain on QUAD resources rather than a contributor to its collective strength. Yet this archipellago country potentially represents a gaping hole in any offshore containment wall inagurated to keep the PRC (and Russia) out of the Pacific.

Other problems include: Japan. pacifist constitution which their government and public opinion stand by. Also hemmed in by no less than three neighbouring nuclear armed powers (China, Russia and North Korea) the Japanese establishment, with memories of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945) would have a deeply embedded risk aversion for anything that might upset these potentially nasty neighbours.

South Korea? Invited to join but stridently objects to belonging to any alliance that would link it to Japan. Bitter historical memories of past Imperial Japanese occupation. Koreans give the impression they would almost prefer to live under the thumb of China than in the shadow of Japan.

Taiwan? Deserving of inclusion but not internationally recognised even by the USA as a soverign state.

Australia? Arguably the most willing potential recruit for such a grouping. Within the QUAD foursome who would logically form the nucleus of the alliance Australia is arguably "the dwarf".

India? A continental state and the only QUAD member with a shared terrestial border with the PRC India has its hands tied with enmities with neighbouring countries - most significently with Pakistan.

Finally the USA. By far the most mighty power for inclusion in this alliance and the one to whom the status of leadership would have to go. Two problems with the USA are (1) this country has a lot of its militaary strength scattered around all sorts of odd corners of the world and (2) instability at the top. What if the US public should elect another isolationist fuckwit president in the Donald Trump mould who does not want to lead? Since this has happened once then surely it could happen again.

Cass, I fully agree that an alliance of democracies in the Asia-Pacific region to contain China's great power ambitions would be highly desirable but given the problems I foresee as listed above (and there are more I have not mentioned) I have grave doubts about whether it could work.
Well, NATO has to be roped in if the democracies want to counter China. China already has a larger navy than the US. So we need French, British, German and Italian warships to make up the numbers. I recall reading sometime ago that the British intend to base their newly minted aircraft carriers in SE Asia, probably in Singapore. Recently, a German warship sailed into the S China Sea, which was a pleasant surprise.

The Japanese constitution has to be revamped to makeit relevant in the 21st century. Japan is no longer the militaristic, imperialistic power it once was when the Constitution was drafted. So a change in attitude is needed by the Japanese public.

India needs economic reforms if it wants to catch up with China. The reforms are necessary to make India a more attrative place to invest if we are to transfer factories from China to India. So Australian could be shipping coal and minerals more to India while facing lower demand from China. The long term fate of democracy depends on India getting its economic act together. Meanwhile, NATO has to bridge the gap.
The Imp :D

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Sertorio
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Re: Philippines government learns that it has only one ally to back it against China.

Post by Sertorio » Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:58 am

cassowary wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 7:43 am

Well, NATO has to be roped in if the democracies want to counter China. China already has a larger navy than the US. So we need French, British, German and Italian warships to make up the numbers. I recall reading sometime ago that the British intend to base their newly minted aircraft carriers in SE Asia, probably in Singapore. Recently, a German warship sailed into the S China Sea, which was a pleasant surprise.

The Japanese constitution has to be revamped to makeit relevant in the 21st century. Japan is no longer the militaristic, imperialistic power it once was when the Constitution was drafted. So a change in attitude is needed by the Japanese public.

India needs economic reforms if it wants to catch up with China. The reforms are necessary to make India a more attrative place to invest if we are to transfer factories from China to India. So Australian could be shipping coal and minerals more to India while facing lower demand from China. The long term fate of democracy depends on India getting its economic act together. Meanwhile, NATO has to bridge the gap.
You have a great imagination! Maybe you should write fiction. Something like Harry Potter but located in Singapore...

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Doc
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Re: Philippines government learns that it has only one ally to back it against China.

Post by Doc » Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:08 am

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:22 am
Doc wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:24 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:03 pm
Doc wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:53 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:41 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:21 am

The hope for the future of democracy lies in India. In the meantime, an alliance of democracies must buy time for India for it to put its house in order. An expansion of NATO to include, India, Japan and Australia. Trade barriers to encourage factories to move out of China to India and elsewhere, growth policies in western countries to boost GDP (ie low taxes, low spending fiscal policies).

...............................................................................................................

Sertorio, your glee at the rise of China tells me that behind every leftist is a totalitarian screaming to get out, as what David Horowitz said. Xi reminds me of Hitler. Xi puts people in concentration camps like Hitler did. Yet you support him. I have often said that the Nazis were a leftist party. Your support of Xi confirms what I said.
Warmongers like you never contributed to peace anywhere. All you do is killing and maiming. Unfortunately for people like you, warmongers are sometimes the first casualties of the wars they start...
Excuse me? The CCP are the ones grabbing territory as if they were the Nazi Third Reich
What territories are those? How big are they? And they belong to whom?...
South China Sea. Phillipines Vietnam Brunei Malaysia and Indonesia
Let's assume that China has no indisputable right to some of the islands/islets on the South China Sea. If it takes them over it will be at least a doubtful action, which may infringe on other countries (disputed) rights. But that will not endanger any of the neighbouring countries. And any local resources, such as gas and oil, are no longer of vital importance to anyone, seeing that we are moving towards a greener economy. To China those islands are important because they will enable it to better protect its southern flank.

The funny thing is that while people make a fuss about those minor possible violations by China, they tend to ignore, for instance, Israel's taking over the Golan and much of the West Bank. It's not the potential land grab in the South China Sea that bothers those people, but the fact that it is China doing it. And such possible violations by China may be used as an argument against Chinese evil intentions. Has anyone ever asked what entitled the US to grab Hawaii? Did the Hawaiian people welcome the destruction of their independence? Do Americans condemn the way the US stole huge territories from Mexico? Some people may dislike China and its regime, but as a major power China is in no way worse than the US. Of course Americans and those who identify with the Anglo empire (the Five Eyes...) may regret being sidelined by China, but I expect much of the world to welcome such a change.
[/quote]

The world court has already ruled against the CCP so there is no need to assume anything Taking the territory of those countries is endangering them as the CCP is taking their future away from them. The CCP policies are not only stripping the resources of the countries in question but they are stripping the resources of the world. Including the fish of the South China Sea.



As far as what you have to say here about the South China sea it is all CCP propaganda. IE it is not true
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Sertorio
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Re: Philippines government learns that it has only one ally to back it against China.

Post by Sertorio » Fri Apr 09, 2021 9:53 am

Doc wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 8:08 am
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Apr 09, 2021 1:22 am
Doc wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 7:24 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 2:03 pm
Doc wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 1:53 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Apr 08, 2021 8:41 am


Warmongers like you never contributed to peace anywhere. All you do is killing and maiming. Unfortunately for people like you, warmongers are sometimes the first casualties of the wars they start...
Excuse me? The CCP are the ones grabbing territory as if they were the Nazi Third Reich
What territories are those? How big are they? And they belong to whom?...
South China Sea. Phillipines Vietnam Brunei Malaysia and Indonesia
Let's assume that China has no indisputable right to some of the islands/islets on the South China Sea. If it takes them over it will be at least a doubtful action, which may infringe on other countries (disputed) rights. But that will not endanger any of the neighbouring countries. And any local resources, such as gas and oil, are no longer of vital importance to anyone, seeing that we are moving towards a greener economy. To China those islands are important because they will enable it to better protect its southern flank.

The funny thing is that while people make a fuss about those minor possible violations by China, they tend to ignore, for instance, Israel's taking over the Golan and much of the West Bank. It's not the potential land grab in the South China Sea that bothers those people, but the fact that it is China doing it. And such possible violations by China may be used as an argument against Chinese evil intentions. Has anyone ever asked what entitled the US to grab Hawaii? Did the Hawaiian people welcome the destruction of their independence? Do Americans condemn the way the US stole huge territories from Mexico? Some people may dislike China and its regime, but as a major power China is in no way worse than the US. Of course Americans and those who identify with the Anglo empire (the Five Eyes...) may regret being sidelined by China, but I expect much of the world to welcome such a change.
The world court has already ruled against the CCP so there is no need to assume anything Taking the territory of those countries is endangering them as the CCP is taking their future away from them. The CCP policies are not only stripping the resources of the countries in question but they are stripping the resources of the world. Including the fish of the South China Sea.



As far as what you have to say here about the South China sea it is all CCP propaganda. IE it is not true
[/quote]

Repeating your assessments doesn't make them any more true. Some countries in Asia may suffer minor losses due to China's forceful imposition of some of its territorial claims. That's not enough to compare China to Nazi Germany. And the US has a much worse record, as I pointed out in my previous post. But you preferred to ignore that...

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