India will win by outlasting China.

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neverfail
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Re: Why I prefer Democracy.

Post by neverfail » Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:30 am

Why do I prefer democracy?

You are not at all wrong in pointing out its shortcomings such as elected government tending to take a short term view of things. I prefer democracy NOT because it delivers high quality government- sometimes it does but these instances tend to be the exception and not the rule.

I prefer it simply because with all of its shortcomings it is still the best system, really the only system, of government ever invented that ensures that government is bound by the same set of laws as those that bind the general populace.

In every nation I know of now or in past history that has ever been ruled by an authoritarian power structure, those who rule always and unerringly seem to place themselves ABOVE the law as a law unto themselves.

I like our government to be WITH us, not ABOVE us. So does every other Aussie I have ever known.

neverfail
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Re: India will win by outlasting China.

Post by neverfail » Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:34 am

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:29 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:05 am

Conversely Vladimir Putin's Russia is not a functioning democracy by any standard yet Covid-19 infections and deaths have reputedly spiralled out of control over there.
Evidence, please...
https://www.google.com/search?q=Russia% ... e&ie=UTF-8

Compare this with the record of successful coronavirus containment and control in Australia and New Zealand over the past 12 months and authoritarian Russia comes across as one of the world's shithouse centres of mismanagement - like India or Brazil and leaning somewhat towards the United States.

(By the way Sertorio, it came across in our news just over a week ago that things are getting rather grim in Portugal on the COVID front too. )

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Sertorio
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Re: India will win by outlasting China.

Post by Sertorio » Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:51 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:34 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:29 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:05 am

Conversely Vladimir Putin's Russia is not a functioning democracy by any standard yet Covid-19 infections and deaths have reputedly spiralled out of control over there.
Evidence, please...
https://www.google.com/search?q=Russia% ... e&ie=UTF-8

Compare this with the record of successful coronavirus containment and control in Australia and New Zealand over the past 12 months and authoritarian Russia comes across as one of the world's shithouse centres of mismanagement - like India or Brazil and leaning somewhat towards the United States.

(By the way Sertorio, it came across in our news just over a week ago that things are getting rather grim in Portugal on the COVID front too. )
Maybe you should start by searching for reliable data...
Covid.JPG
Covid.JPG (86.7 KiB) Viewed 139 times
Now, compare Russia with the other countries on the chart...

When will you start by building your opinions on facts? But I suppose you prefer the usual propaganda channels...

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Doc
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Re: India will win by outlasting China.

Post by Doc » Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:15 am

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:51 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:34 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:29 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:05 am

Conversely Vladimir Putin's Russia is not a functioning democracy by any standard yet Covid-19 infections and deaths have reputedly spiralled out of control over there.
Evidence, please...
https://www.google.com/search?q=Russia% ... e&ie=UTF-8

Compare this with the record of successful coronavirus containment and control in Australia and New Zealand over the past 12 months and authoritarian Russia comes across as one of the world's shithouse centres of mismanagement - like India or Brazil and leaning somewhat towards the United States.

(By the way Sertorio, it came across in our news just over a week ago that things are getting rather grim in Portugal on the COVID front too. )
Maybe you should start by searching for reliable data...

Covid.JPG

Now, compare Russia with the other countries on the chart...

When will you start by building your opinions on facts? But I suppose you prefer the usual propaganda channels...
Brazil is in dire straights due to the CCP virus. They used the SIno vaccine which doesn't work. As many of those vaccinated have become infected.

Looking more and more like the CCP is conducting Biological warfare on the rest of the world.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

neverfail
Posts: 6590
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Location: Singapore

Re: India will win by outlasting China.

Post by neverfail » Mon Apr 05, 2021 5:08 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:51 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:34 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:29 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:05 am

Conversely Vladimir Putin's Russia is not a functioning democracy by any standard yet Covid-19 infections and deaths have reputedly spiralled out of control over there.
Evidence, please...
https://www.google.com/search?q=Russia% ... e&ie=UTF-8

Compare this with the record of successful coronavirus containment and control in Australia and New Zealand over the past 12 months and authoritarian Russia comes across as one of the world's shithouse centres of mismanagement - like India or Brazil and leaning somewhat towards the United States.

(By the way Sertorio, it came across in our news just over a week ago that things are getting rather grim in Portugal on the COVID front too. )
Maybe you should start by searching for reliable data...

Covid.JPG

Now, compare Russia with the other countries on the chart...

When will you start by building your opinions on facts? But I suppose you prefer the usual propaganda channels...
Sertorio,

It still means that even according to your provided info Russia is numbered among the half a dozen very worst countries in the world as far as spread of infections and scale of mortality from Covid-19 are concerned.

I only mentioned Russia in my earlier post in order to point out to Cassowary that the mere fact of having an authoritarian structure of government in place does not in itself guarantee good management of the nation's affairs (just as having democratically elected government does not automatically ensure poor management - as in the case of Australia and New Zealand).

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Sertorio
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Re: India will win by outlasting China.

Post by Sertorio » Mon Apr 05, 2021 5:18 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 5:08 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:51 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:34 am
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:29 am
neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:05 am

Conversely Vladimir Putin's Russia is not a functioning democracy by any standard yet Covid-19 infections and deaths have reputedly spiralled out of control over there.
Evidence, please...
https://www.google.com/search?q=Russia% ... e&ie=UTF-8

Compare this with the record of successful coronavirus containment and control in Australia and New Zealand over the past 12 months and authoritarian Russia comes across as one of the world's shithouse centres of mismanagement - like India or Brazil and leaning somewhat towards the United States.

(By the way Sertorio, it came across in our news just over a week ago that things are getting rather grim in Portugal on the COVID front too. )
Maybe you should start by searching for reliable data...

Covid.JPG

Now, compare Russia with the other countries on the chart...

When will you start by building your opinions on facts? But I suppose you prefer the usual propaganda channels...
Sertorio,

It still means that even according to your provided info Russia is numbered among the half a dozen very worst countries in the world as far as spread of infections and scale of mortality from Covid-19 are concerned.

I only mentioned Russia in my earlier post in order to point out to Cassowary that the mere fact of having an authoritarian structure of government in place does not in itself guarantee good management of the nations affairs (just as having democratically elected government does not automatically ensure poor management - as in the case of Australia and New Zealand).
From the countries on the chart I presented, only four (out of 20) had fewer cases per 100,000 people, and only three had fewer dead per 100,000 than Russia. Where do you see Russia as being numbered among the half dozen very worst countries in the world? Can't you do any better than that?...

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cassowary
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Re: India will win by outlasting China.

Post by cassowary » Mon Apr 05, 2021 8:54 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:05 am
cassowary wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 12:33 am

Yes, but the draconian controls can also work in their favor. Who did better in the management of the pandemic? The west in general plus democratic India or China? Apart from Australia and NZ, most of the west did worse. Australia is cut off and low in population. So that helps.

The point is that dictatorship has its strengths. (As well as weaknesses.)
Undeniable. That was pointed out to me over half a century ago.

The examples of Australia and New Zealand should demonstrate unequivocally that you do not need an authoritarian tyranny to contain and thereby minimise the number of deaths from Covid-19. Democratically governed lands can do it just as well if the right conditions are in place.

Come to think of it: Taiwan reputedly did very well in that regard also - and Taiwan is regarded these days as democratically governed.

To this day I am not astonished by the dilligence with which our authorities (with willing support by the general public) handled the challenge of the epidemic down here - I would have expected nothing less from them. What has left me utterly flabbergasted has been the unbelievable ineptitude of the authorities both in the United States and in Europe (including the UK) in mishandling the pandemic spread (though the USA was not helped a bit by the Donald Trump factor).

Conversely Vladimir Putin's Russia is not a functioning democracy by any standard yet Covid-19 infections and deaths have reputedly spiralled out of control over there.
Your government has managed the pandemic well. But don't forget that Australia and NZ have advantages. Both have small populations relative to the larger democracies. Both are secluded from major population centers. Both are surrounded by water while European countries have land borders. The US has a porous border with Mexico where millions of illegals crossed. All these factors have helped Australia and NZ. The same goes for Taiwan.
The Imp :D

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cassowary
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Re: India will win by outlasting China.

Post by cassowary » Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:01 pm

The thing about authoritiarian countries like Russia is that we don't know how accurate their statistics are. Same goes for China. From history, we observe that the bureaucrats in such places are very scared of delivering to the Big Boss bad news. Mao, for example, was the last to know that his people were starving during the Great Leap Forward.
The Imp :D

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cassowary
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Re: Why I prefer Democracy.

Post by cassowary » Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:08 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 3:30 am
Why do I prefer democracy?

You are not at all wrong in pointing out its shortcomings such as elected government tending to take a short term view of things. I prefer democracy NOT because it delivers high quality government- sometimes it does but these instances tend to be the exception and not the rule.

I prefer it simply because with all of its shortcomings it is still the best system, really the only system, of government ever invented that ensures that government is bound by the same set of laws as those that bind the general populace.

In every nation I know of now or in past history that has ever been ruled by an authoritarian power structure, those who rule always and unerringly seem to place themselves ABOVE the law as a law unto themselves.

I like our government to be WITH us, not ABOVE us. So does every other Aussie I have ever known.
I agree with you. Democracy is the best form of government. But we should take things one step further. Since we both agree that democracy has its shortcomings, what can we do to reduce or remove those shortcomings? Don't we need to think of reforms before China's totalitarian system destroys democracy?
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: Why I prefer Democracy.

Post by neverfail » Tue Apr 06, 2021 2:47 am

cassowary wrote:
Mon Apr 05, 2021 9:08 pm
I agree with you. Democracy is the best form of government. But we should take things one step further. Since we both agree that democracy has its shortcomings, what can we do to reduce or remove those shortcomings? Don't we need to think of reforms before China's totalitarian system destroys democracy?
Cass, democracy is in retreat in the very coutries where it has been established longest. Oddly, it is not the PRC that is directly the cause but the security state that is making inroads against personal privacy and the freedoms we enjoy. When the twin towers were brought down inj NYC on Sept 11, 2001 the enemies of democracy won a great victory. Not from the destruction of the high rises and the thousands of deaths but from the subsequent reaction to it.

Presently I can see no end to it. The PRC challenge shall only exabberate that trend.

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