And Now the China-Iran Alliance

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neverfail
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Re: And Now the China-Iran Alliance

Post by neverfail » Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:08 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:24 am

Our experience with China has been mixed, including humiliation in Macao during the Cultural Revolution. But we never occupied Chinese territory - Macao was leased to us - even when we were strong enough to do it. And China recognized our more civilized approach by allowing us to remain in Macao two years longer than they allowed the British to remain in Hong Kong. If one knows anything about China and the Chinese that was a compliment made to us, and an additional slap on the British face. We now have very interesting economic relations with China, with China investing in Portugal where we needed investment to be made.
Oh, stop gilding the lily Sertorio.

A Ming emperor ceded Macao to Portugal in perpetuity. Portugal did not even need to return it to China.

With the British: in the aftermath of the first Opium War (Qing dynasty) China ceded Hong Kong Island to the UK in perpetuity, but only the island. With the growth of population along with the island's commerce the UK government then needed to enter into a 99 year leasing agreement for a larger enclave on the adjacent mainland to keep HK viable. It was theexpiry of that lease (known as the NEW Territory) in 1997 that moved the Thatcher government in the UK to cede the island along with the adjacent New Territiry back to China.

The Brits judged HK island to be non-viable without the attached New Territory.

Portuguese Macao had obviouisly not outgrown its capacity to support itself without annaxing additional territiry on the Chinese mainalnd. The only reason I can see why your government decided to cede Macao back to China was that it had become fashionable for the former imperial powers in Europe to appear remorseful of past imperial adventures - and Portugal stepped into line with that fashion trend.

:lol: A big PR stunt.

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Sertorio
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Re: And Now the China-Iran Alliance

Post by Sertorio » Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:29 pm

neverfail wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 3:08 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:24 am

Our experience with China has been mixed, including humiliation in Macao during the Cultural Revolution. But we never occupied Chinese territory - Macao was leased to us - even when we were strong enough to do it. And China recognized our more civilized approach by allowing us to remain in Macao two years longer than they allowed the British to remain in Hong Kong. If one knows anything about China and the Chinese that was a compliment made to us, and an additional slap on the British face. We now have very interesting economic relations with China, with China investing in Portugal where we needed investment to be made.
Oh, stop gilding the lily Sertorio.

A Ming emperor ceded Macao to Portugal in perpetuity. Portugal did not even need to return it to China.

With the British: in the aftermath of the first Opium War (Qing dynasty) China ceded Hong Kong Island to the UK in perpetuity, but only the island. With the growth of population along with the island's commerce the UK government then needed to enter into a 99 year leasing agreement for a larger enclave on the adjacent mainland to keep HK viable. It was theexpiry of that lease (known as the NEW Territory) in 1997 that moved the Thatcher government in the UK to cede the island along with the adjacent New Territiry back to China.

The Brits judged HK island to be non-viable without the attached New Territory.

Portuguese Macao had obviouisly not outgrown its capacity to support itself without annaxing additional territiry on the Chinese mainalnd. The only reason I can see why your government decided to cede Macao back to China was that it had become fashionable for the former imperial powers in Europe to appear remorseful of past imperial adventures - and Portugal stepped into line with that fashion trend.

:lol: A big PR stunt.
You have the facts all wrong, so you better do some research because I don't feel like explaining it to you. Your anti-China bias and your Anglo affiliation make it nearly impossible for you to look at these things objectively.

neverfail
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Re: And Now the China-Iran Alliance

Post by neverfail » Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:02 pm

About HK I am absolutely sure of my facts.

About Macao well: it turned out that you were right about the leasing agreement dating from 1557 but
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Macau

In 1887 the Portuguese finally managed to secure an agreement from China that Macao was Portuguese territory.
I see no reference re. that 1887 agreement obliging Portugal to ever restore Macao to China's soverignty; either in 1999 or in any other year.

The cession was in perpetury just as I stated.

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Sertorio
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Re: And Now the China-Iran Alliance

Post by Sertorio » Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:28 pm

neverfail wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:02 pm
About HK I am absolutely sure of my facts.

About Macao well: it turned out that you were right about the leasing agreement dating from 1557 but
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Macau

In 1887 the Portuguese finally managed to secure an agreement from China that Macao was Portuguese territory.
I see no reference re. that 1887 agreement obliging Portugal to ever restore Macao to China's soverignty; either in 1999 or in any other year.

The cession was in perpetury just as I stated.
The 1887 treaty wasn't our idea, it was a British imposition on China, and it was one of the unequal treaties which China later considered null and void, so we had to accept transferring Macao back to China. It was because China recognized that we were not behind the 1887 treaty that Beijing allowed us to be the last European power to hold control over a Chinese territory. It was a compliment to us and their way to say that we, contrarily to the other foreign powers, had always respected them as a sovereign power. It was also an indirect way for China to further humiliate the UK.

neverfail
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Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am
Location: Singapore

Re: And Now the China-Iran Alliance

Post by neverfail » Fri Apr 02, 2021 9:56 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:28 pm
neverfail wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 4:02 pm
About HK I am absolutely sure of my facts.

About Macao well: it turned out that you were right about the leasing agreement dating from 1557 but
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Macau

In 1887 the Portuguese finally managed to secure an agreement from China that Macao was Portuguese territory.
I see no reference re. that 1887 agreement obliging Portugal to ever restore Macao to China's soverignty; either in 1999 or in any other year.

The cession was in perpetury just as I stated.
The 1887 treaty wasn't our idea, it was a British imposition on China, and it was one of the unequal treaties which China later considered null and void, so we had to accept transferring Macao back to China. It was because China recognized that we were not behind the 1887 treaty that Beijing allowed us to be the last European power to hold control over a Chinese territory. It was a compliment to us and their way to say that we, contrarily to the other foreign powers, had always respected them as a sovereign power. It was also an indirect way for China to further humiliate the UK.
Nothing in my reference to indicate that the British had anything to do with it.

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