And Now the China-Iran Alliance

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Sertorio
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Re: And Now the China-Iran Alliance

Post by Sertorio » Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:28 pm

neverfail wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:00 pm
"What you seem to be thinking is that China is doing now what the US has been doing for many decades. There is however a difference: the Chinese are a lot smarter than the Americans, and they will further their interests without trying to make vassals out of the people they are dealing with."
(another brilliant offering by Sertorio.)
Ellen wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:41 pm
You haven't been to Asia lately, clearly. I was in Vietnam a few years ago, and they feel very much like vassals. The whole coastline around the city of Hue is now colonized by Chinese beach lovers who have built condominiums along the sand. Only one little patch of beachfront was left for the local Vietnamese to go and enjoy a day at the beach.

The Chinese are buying up property like there's no tomorrow, including an island that belongs to cash-strapped Laos. They are rapidly becoming as hated as the "ugly Americans" of the late 20th century.

The Chinese are much more of a predatory threat in SE Asia, as Iran is in the Near East, than America ever was in either place. Why? As NF hints, China is a local imperialist power that isn't going to retreat across an ocean, like America always does when the natives start to rebel. And, yes, there is a grain of truth to what you said about Chinese imperialism. They are more subtle, and initially - at least - they behave politely and graciously as they incorporate territories and civilizations under their domination and sinoform them, as Spengler keeps on mentioning.

The Chinese are an experienced imperial power who take the long view of history (like a 5000 year view), not the short view that Americans are used to (like a 4- or 8-year presidential term, or a 10-year corporate investment cycle).
Vietnam offers a great insight historically into both the persistence of that 5,000 year old Chinese civilisation in efforts to subjugate and rule but also of the perseverance of the Vietnamese in resisting and opposing it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_u ... inese_rule

The first attempt at imperialist annexation was made coinciding with the rise of the Han - the very first long-lived Chinese dynasty and the most recent was the MIng. That covers a gap of over one and one half millenia.

Compared to that the colonialist rume by the French was like the blink of an eyelid while the US intervention (at the invitation of the South Vietnam government please note) does not even count for that. Yet all throughout the Vietnamese have managed to maintain their identity as Vietnamese and have not suffered the fate of countless, now unnamed and unknown, peoples who lived further to the north and were "Sinicised", their identities rubbed out, with the expansion of the Han domain from its core in northeastern China.
............................................................................................................

Ellen, I like your comparison of the long term view taken by the Chinese in foreign policy as well as in history and your adverse comparison with the flighty short-term US view. Yes, the Americans (unlike the Chinese and Russians) are blessed with a home country with secure frontiers that they can and do always retreat back to whenever any of their military forays abroad goes wrong and turns into a fiasco (and that is often). However, as the citizen of a country in alliance with the United States I find that disturbing because it would only takie the whim of a single US administration to void US committment to any one of America's allies abroad.

The Trump administration illustrates just how little control other parts of government in the US (e.g. the Houses of Congress) have in calling rogue presidents to account. For all intents and purposes the US head of state and head of government (vested in the same person) is non-accountable for his actions.

It would only the Americans to elect another president disrespectful of both tradition and long term US committments abroad to leave America's allies abroad bereft of backup.

The nation that enters into an alliance with the US is taking a grave risk. I would understand the reluctance of foreign nations overseas like Vietnam from entering into a pact with the US even though short term it might even be in their interests to.
Just for your information:
The PRC officially recognizes 55 ethnic minority groups within China in addition to the Han majority. As of 2010, the combined population of officially-recognized minority groups comprised 8.49% of the population of mainland China. In addition to these officially-recognized ethnic minority groups, there are Chinese nationals who privately classify themselves as members of unrecognized ethnic groups, such as the very small Chinese Jewish, Tuvan, and Ili Turki communities, as well as the much larger Oirat and Japanese communities.

(...)ethnic minorities enjoy other special exemptions which vary by province- these include lower tax thresholds and lower required scores for entry into university. The use of these measures to raise ethnic minorities' human capital is seen by the central government as important for improving the economic development of ethnic minorities. Ethnic minorities are represented in the National People's Congress as well as governments at the provincial and prefectural levels. Some ethnic minorities in China live in what are described as ethnic autonomous areas. These "regional autonomies" guarantee ethnic minorities the freedom to use and develop their ethnic languages, and to maintain their own cultural and social customs. In addition, the PRC government has provided preferential economic development and aid to areas where ethnic minorities live. Furthermore, the Chinese government has allowed and encouraged the involvement of ethnic minority participation in the party. Even though ethnic minorities in China are granted specific rights and freedoms, many ethnic minorities still have headed towards the urban life in order to obtain a well paid job.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_mi ... s_in_China
That seems to contradict your statement that China tries to eliminate the non-Han peoples, and therefore are a danger to all neighbouring countries. The Vietnamese were never in danger of losing their identity as a result of Chinese aggression. I'm quite sure you yourself do not believe it, but it is convenient to say it for the sake of argumentation.

The following map clearly shows the falsity of your statement:

Image

The fact that the Han majority rules the country doesn't mean that minorities are suppressed. You would love China to be a threatening monster to all non-Chinese in Asia, but the fact is that it isn't. The only threat to peace in Asia comes from the unwanted presence of the Americans in the region.

neverfail
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Re: And Now the China-Iran Alliance

Post by neverfail » Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:36 pm

China-Russia-Iran. Does it not remind you of three sheaves in the midst of a mown cornfield leaning against one another in order to prop each other up? :lol:

It would remind you of an alliance of the refent historical past. The Axis alliance agreement signed by Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan in 1940. It could not have been shared national interest that led them into that: according to NAZI idealogy the Japanese could not possibly have qualified as an Aryan people and therefore should have been unacceptable as a German ally. That they entered into the pact reflects the fact that each had by their own aggressions turned themselves into international pariah states - and were therefore stuck with one another.

neverfail
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Re: And Now the China-Iran Alliance

Post by neverfail » Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:05 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 5:28 pm

That seems to contradict your statement that China tries to eliminate the non-Han peoples, and therefore are a danger to all neighbouring countries. The Vietnamese were never in danger of losing their identity as a result of Chinese aggression. I'm quite sure you yourself do not believe it, but it is convenient to say it for the sake of argumentation.

The following map clearly shows the falsity of your statement:

Image

The fact that the Han majority rules the country doesn't mean that minorities are suppressed. You would love China to be a threatening monster to all non-Chinese in Asia, but the fact is that it isn't. The only threat to peace in Asia comes from the unwanted presence of the Americans in the region.
:lol: (Umm, it is already th morning of April the First out here where I am: I hope your post was not offered as an April fool's prank Sertorio?)


It does nothing of the sort Sertorio. I was not talking about these historic survivors (whose days are likely numbered anyhow) but of peoples who I know existed 2,000 years and more ago in central eastern and southeastern China but have since been obliterrated by being soaked up into the since much expanded Han domain.

Even in the areas in your provided map indicating the presence of ethnic minorities Han constitute the majority population: even in areas like Tibet where traditionally they were not. Even in Manchuria where (as in Tibet) ethnic Han were absent from over a couple of centuries ago but in Manchuria have been overpowered by the sheer flood of Han immigrant settlers that has come in since.


Luckily, with an ageing and soon to be shrinking population the one redress seems to be that in future there will not be enough Han to further expand their terrestial domain at cost to others.

Contrary to your supposition; I would much prefer China to be like the nice, agreeable, unambitous power I remember it as being over 20 years ago (at least in its dealings with my country). Unfortunately, the paranoid control freaks who rule it from Beijing with their vain dreams of restoring Sino pre-eminence have turned nasty; making it impossible to view mainland China as anything other than a threat to its neighbours.
.....................................................................................................................................

p.s. Ellen is absolutely right. In its dealings with foreign countries Chinese diplomacy uses the "softly, softly catchee monkey" approach at first but that is only before they can creep close enough to whip the net over you.

Ellen
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Re: And Now the China-Iran Alliance

Post by Ellen » Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:52 pm

"That seems to contradict your statement that China tries to eliminate the non-Han peoples."

Who ever said that? This is a very stupid statement, and neither I nor NF said that.

The brilliance of the Chinese - and Russians, by the way - is that they combine territorial imperialism with cultural imperialism (ie, soft power) in such a way that the natives end up becoming sinocized or russified without even knowing it, until it is too late to retrieve their original culture.

But, why should they want to retrieve their original culture? Do people who have been raised to a higher level of civilization want to go back to being more primitive and disrespected. Yes, in spite of PC rules forbidding one to say this, primitive people are less respected than people from advanced societies. That's why an Australian wandering around Asia is treated with greater respect than a Papuan tribesman with one of those disappearing languages that Spengler used to write about.

China's culture has influenced all of Asia in all directions (except perhaps Russia) because it has been an advanced civilization for all of its 5000-year history except an interval of about 500 years that ended 20 years ago. The Vietnamese that I spoke about are selling their beachfronts to the Chinese nouveau middle class because they want the income it provides, so they can raise themselves to a higher level in the world. They too are tired of being viewed as nationalist fanatics who lived in tunnels and ate plant roots to defeat the US in the Vietnam war, but ended up being poor and backward and emaciated. They're tired of poverty, although I did not see one fat Vietnamese person in 3 days of touring. They view the Chinese model as one too admire and emulate. And yes, truth be told, they would rather follow the Chinese path of development than the American one. And that decision is a telling one about the decline of American soft power.

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Sertorio
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Re: And Now the China-Iran Alliance

Post by Sertorio » Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:06 am

neverfail wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:05 pm

I was not talking about these historic survivors (whose days are likely numbered anyhow)
Those "survivors" represent almost 9% of the population, or something like 120 million people. I doubt their days are numbered. Why don't you stop making up fake excuses to dislike China and justify your (Australian) vassal status in respect of the US? The only smart thing to do is recognizing the importance of China for the region of the world where you live, recognizing that the Chinese are highly capable people - also scientifically and technologically -, that they are highly civilized and that dealing and trading with them could be highly beneficial to everyone. Stop betting on the wrong horse.

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Re: And Now the China-Iran Alliance

Post by Sertorio » Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:11 am

Ellen wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:52 pm
"That seems to contradict your statement that China tries to eliminate the non-Han peoples."

Who ever said that? This is a very stupid statement, and neither I nor NF said that.

The brilliance of the Chinese - and Russians, by the way - is that they combine territorial imperialism with cultural imperialism (ie, soft power) in such a way that the natives end up becoming sinocized or russified without even knowing it, until it is too late to retrieve their original culture.

But, why should they want to retrieve their original culture? Do people who have been raised to a higher level of civilization want to go back to being more primitive and disrespected. Yes, in spite of PC rules forbidding one to say this, primitive people are less respected than people from advanced societies. That's why an Australian wandering around Asia is treated with greater respect than a Papuan tribesman with one of those disappearing languages that Spengler used to write about.

China's culture has influenced all of Asia in all directions (except perhaps Russia) because it has been an advanced civilization for all of its 5000-year history except an interval of about 500 years that ended 20 years ago. The Vietnamese that I spoke about are selling their beachfronts to the Chinese nouveau middle class because they want the income it provides, so they can raise themselves to a higher level in the world. They too are tired of being viewed as nationalist fanatics who lived in tunnels and ate plant roots to defeat the US in the Vietnam war, but ended up being poor and backward and emaciated. They're tired of poverty, although I did not see one fat Vietnamese person in 3 days of touring. They view the Chinese model as one too admire and emulate. And yes, truth be told, they would rather follow the Chinese path of development than the American one. And that decision is a telling one about the decline of American soft power.
Rome did that to the peoples of Mediterranean Europe, including my own ancestors, and we all benefited from it. Who of us would want to go back to be Iberian, or Celtic, or Lusitanian? Rome civilized us, gave us our laws, our administration, our political systems, and made us stronger than we could ever have been without them.

neverfail
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Re: And Now the China-Iran Alliance

Post by neverfail » Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:14 am

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:06 am
neverfail wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:05 pm

I was not talking about these historic survivors (whose days are likely numbered anyhow)
Those "survivors" represent almost 9% of the population, or something like 120 million people. I doubt their days are numbered. Why don't you stop making up fake excuses to dislike China and justify your (Australian) vassal status in respect of the US? The only smart thing to do is recognizing the importance of China for the region of the world where you live, recognizing that the Chinese are highly capable people - also scientifically and technologically -, that they are highly civilized and that dealing and trading with them could be highly beneficial to everyone. Stop betting on the wrong horse.
Vassal state? We are nobody's vassal. You are utterly ignorent of the fact that ever since 1942 it has been Australia more than the USA that has been the chief driving force in inagurating and maintaining the alliance.

We WANT a stabilising American presence in the region - so wake up!

We are acutely aware of the growing power of China in the region and of the Chinese as a highly capable people - but that does not mean that we are willing to let the PRC walk all over us.

Would you Portuguese want to?

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Sertorio
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Re: And Now the China-Iran Alliance

Post by Sertorio » Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:24 am

neverfail wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:14 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:06 am
neverfail wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:05 pm

I was not talking about these historic survivors (whose days are likely numbered anyhow)
Those "survivors" represent almost 9% of the population, or something like 120 million people. I doubt their days are numbered. Why don't you stop making up fake excuses to dislike China and justify your (Australian) vassal status in respect of the US? The only smart thing to do is recognizing the importance of China for the region of the world where you live, recognizing that the Chinese are highly capable people - also scientifically and technologically -, that they are highly civilized and that dealing and trading with them could be highly beneficial to everyone. Stop betting on the wrong horse.
Vassal state? We are nobody's vassal. You are utterly ignorent of the fact that ever since 1942 it has been Australia more than the USA that has been the chief driving force in inagurating and maintaining the alliance.

We WANT a stabilising American presence in the region - so wake up!

We are acutely aware of the growing power of China in the region and of the Chinese as a highly capable people - but that does not mean that we are willing to let the PRC walk all over us.

Would you Portuguese want to?
Deal fairly with China and they will respond in a likewise manner, not by walking all over you, in the American fashion.

Our experience with China has been mixed, including humiliation in Macao during the Cultural Revolution. But we never occupied Chinese territory - Macao was leased to us - even when we were strong enough to do it. And China recognized our more civilized approach by allowing us to remain in Macao two years longer than they allowed the British to remain in Hong Kong. If one knows anything about China and the Chinese that was a compliment made to us, and an additional slap on the British face. We now have very interesting economic relations with China, with China investing in Portugal where we needed investment to be made.

Jim the Moron
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Re: And Now the China-Iran Alliance

Post by Jim the Moron » Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:01 am

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:24 am
neverfail wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:14 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:06 am
neverfail wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:05 pm

I was not talking about these historic survivors (whose days are likely numbered anyhow)
Those "survivors" represent almost 9% of the population, or something like 120 million people. I doubt their days are numbered. Why don't you stop making up fake excuses to dislike China and justify your (Australian) vassal status in respect of the US? The only smart thing to do is recognizing the importance of China for the region of the world where you live, recognizing that the Chinese are highly capable people - also scientifically and technologically -, that they are highly civilized and that dealing and trading with them could be highly beneficial to everyone. Stop betting on the wrong horse.
Vassal state? We are nobody's vassal. You are utterly ignorent of the fact that ever since 1942 it has been Australia more than the USA that has been the chief driving force in inagurating and maintaining the alliance.

We WANT a stabilising American presence in the region - so wake up!

We are acutely aware of the growing power of China in the region and of the Chinese as a highly capable people - but that does not mean that we are willing to let the PRC walk all over us.

Would you Portuguese want to?
Deal fairly with China and they will respond in a likewise manner, not by walking all over you, in the American fashion.

Our experience with China has been mixed, including humiliation in Macao during the Cultural Revolution. But we never occupied Chinese territory - Macao was leased to us - even when we were strong enough to do it. And China recognized our more civilized approach by allowing us to remain in Macao two years longer than they allowed the British to remain in Hong Kong. If one knows anything about China and the Chinese that was a compliment made to us, and an additional slap on the British face. We now have very interesting economic relations with China, with China investing in Portugal where we needed investment to be made.

"We now have very interesting economic relations with China . . ."
Indeed. Portugal supplies the cork, and China manufactures the corkscrews.

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Sertorio
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Re: And Now the China-Iran Alliance

Post by Sertorio » Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:56 am

Jim the Moron wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 1:01 am
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:24 am
neverfail wrote:
Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:14 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:06 am
neverfail wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:05 pm

I was not talking about these historic survivors (whose days are likely numbered anyhow)
Those "survivors" represent almost 9% of the population, or something like 120 million people. I doubt their days are numbered. Why don't you stop making up fake excuses to dislike China and justify your (Australian) vassal status in respect of the US? The only smart thing to do is recognizing the importance of China for the region of the world where you live, recognizing that the Chinese are highly capable people - also scientifically and technologically -, that they are highly civilized and that dealing and trading with them could be highly beneficial to everyone. Stop betting on the wrong horse.
Vassal state? We are nobody's vassal. You are utterly ignorent of the fact that ever since 1942 it has been Australia more than the USA that has been the chief driving force in inagurating and maintaining the alliance.

We WANT a stabilising American presence in the region - so wake up!

We are acutely aware of the growing power of China in the region and of the Chinese as a highly capable people - but that does not mean that we are willing to let the PRC walk all over us.

Would you Portuguese want to?
Deal fairly with China and they will respond in a likewise manner, not by walking all over you, in the American fashion.

Our experience with China has been mixed, including humiliation in Macao during the Cultural Revolution. But we never occupied Chinese territory - Macao was leased to us - even when we were strong enough to do it. And China recognized our more civilized approach by allowing us to remain in Macao two years longer than they allowed the British to remain in Hong Kong. If one knows anything about China and the Chinese that was a compliment made to us, and an additional slap on the British face. We now have very interesting economic relations with China, with China investing in Portugal where we needed investment to be made.

"We now have very interesting economic relations with China . . ."
Indeed. Portugal supplies the cork, and China manufactures the corkscrews.
You should buy the latest CIA Year Book... The days of Portugal's dependence on cork are long gone... Now we build airplanes too, and supply NASA with software for their spacecraft...

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