I fear for the future

Discussion of current events
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cassowary
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Re: I fear for the future

Post by cassowary » Tue Mar 30, 2021 7:00 pm

neverfail wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:06 pm
Sorry Cass but I have to partly disagree.
cassowary wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:35 am
I think the US just wants to presever Taiwanese democracy.
Cassowary, I have seen too many instances over the years of US government policy lending support to tyrannies to believe they would now care a shit about Taiwan democracy - except insofar as this serves as a useful propaganda tool. More likely US policymakers treasure Taiwan for its geostrategic position off the coast of mainland Chinma and adjacent to Japan and the Philippines.
I know from my own country’s history that the US does care for democracy. More on that later. It’s just that expediency during the Cold War drove them to form alliances with capitalist and hence ant-communist dictators. What I see is the big picture. Those capitalist dictatorships that were allied with the US eventually became democracies. Taiwan, S Korea, Philippines are some examples.

On the other hand, Socialist dictatorships allied with the USSR remained dictatorships. N Korea, Cuba are examples. The case of Venezuela is interesting. There was a people’s power type protests to topple the regime but it failed because of Russian and Cuban support.

Now about Singapore. Our LKY was a strongman despite the fig leaf of holding elections. During the Malayan Emergency, the British implemented detention without trial as an emergency measure to prevent a communist takeover which would have been bloody. Most people supported that.

The ISA remained in force after independence and the Emergency was officially over. I have argued that it was declared over not because the threat of communist subversion was over but for political reasons. LKY had used it against political opponents who were front men of the communists.

But this threat intimidated would be opposition leaders from emerging and LKY could rule with total power. The Americans wanted Singapore to develop into a full fledged democracy and so encouraged opposition leaders to emerge.

A US diplomat, probably CIA, met with Frances Seow, a disgruntled former ally of LKY, who was thinking of standing as a opposition candidate in the elections. This enraged LKY and he ordered Seow to be detained. This brought a storm of protests from the Americans. Seow was later released.

Seow was obviously not a communist. Nor was he violent in his pursuit of power. LKY had stepped across the line. But this was the last time the ISA was invoked to detain without trial an opposition leader. LKY treasured good relations with the US to moderate his behaviour.
The Imp :D

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Sertorio
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Re: I fear for the future

Post by Sertorio » Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:42 am

neverfail wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:32 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:41 am
That's up to the Taiwanese to negotiate with Beijing a formula which preserves the local democratic institutions.
Just like the one that Beijing recently so blatantly dishonoured in Hong Kong? The Taiwanese would never be so stupid, Sertorio.
The size of Taiwan is not comparable to that of Hong Kong, and Taiwanese institutions are well established, which was not the case in Hong Kong, never a democracy under the British. And Hong Kong was being used to undermine Beijing's institutions, which could not happen in Taiwan, once it decided to accept Beijing's sovereignty.

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cassowary
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Re: I fear for the future

Post by cassowary » Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:45 am

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:42 am
neverfail wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:32 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:41 am
That's up to the Taiwanese to negotiate with Beijing a formula which preserves the local democratic institutions.
Just like the one that Beijing recently so blatantly dishonoured in Hong Kong? The Taiwanese would never be so stupid, Sertorio.
The size of Taiwan is not comparable to that of Hong Kong, and Taiwanese institutions are well established, which was not the case in Hong Kong, never a democracy under the British. And Hong Kong was being used to undermine Beijing's institutions, which could not happen in Taiwan, once it decided to accept Beijing's sovereignty.
You are talking rubbish again in order to defend an evil regime comparable to the Nazis.
The Imp :D

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Sertorio
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Re: I fear for the future

Post by Sertorio » Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:45 am

cassowary wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:45 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:42 am
neverfail wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:32 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:41 am
That's up to the Taiwanese to negotiate with Beijing a formula which preserves the local democratic institutions.
Just like the one that Beijing recently so blatantly dishonoured in Hong Kong? The Taiwanese would never be so stupid, Sertorio.
The size of Taiwan is not comparable to that of Hong Kong, and Taiwanese institutions are well established, which was not the case in Hong Kong, never a democracy under the British. And Hong Kong was being used to undermine Beijing's institutions, which could not happen in Taiwan, once it decided to accept Beijing's sovereignty.
You are talking rubbish again in order to defend an evil regime comparable to the Nazis.
No, I am right and you are wrong, as usual. Because you are unable of rigorous, unbiased thinking. Your mind doesn't know the difference between right and wrong, only the difference between favourable and unfavourable...An argument unfavourable to your misconceptions must necessarily be wrong.

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cassowary
Posts: 4764
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:30 pm

Re: I fear for the future

Post by cassowary » Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:37 am

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:45 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:45 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:42 am
neverfail wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:32 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:41 am
That's up to the Taiwanese to negotiate with Beijing a formula which preserves the local democratic institutions.
Just like the one that Beijing recently so blatantly dishonoured in Hong Kong? The Taiwanese would never be so stupid, Sertorio.
The size of Taiwan is not comparable to that of Hong Kong, and Taiwanese institutions are well established, which was not the case in Hong Kong, never a democracy under the British. And Hong Kong was being used to undermine Beijing's institutions, which could not happen in Taiwan, once it decided to accept Beijing's sovereignty.
You are talking rubbish again in order to defend an evil regime comparable to the Nazis.
No, I am right and you are wrong, as usual. Because you are unable of rigorous, unbiased thinking. Your mind doesn't know the difference between right and wrong, only the difference between favourable and unfavourable...An argument unfavourable to your misconceptions must necessarily be wrong.
No, I am right and you are wrong, as usual. Because you are unable of rigorous, unbiased thinking. Your mind doesn't know the difference between right and wrong, only the difference between favourable and unfavourable...An argument unfavourable to your misconceptions must necessarily be wrong.

I think your words apply to you. So I repeated them to you.
The Imp :D

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Sertorio
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Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: I fear for the future

Post by Sertorio » Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:15 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:37 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:45 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:45 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:42 am
neverfail wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:32 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:41 am
That's up to the Taiwanese to negotiate with Beijing a formula which preserves the local democratic institutions.
Just like the one that Beijing recently so blatantly dishonoured in Hong Kong? The Taiwanese would never be so stupid, Sertorio.
The size of Taiwan is not comparable to that of Hong Kong, and Taiwanese institutions are well established, which was not the case in Hong Kong, never a democracy under the British. And Hong Kong was being used to undermine Beijing's institutions, which could not happen in Taiwan, once it decided to accept Beijing's sovereignty.
You are talking rubbish again in order to defend an evil regime comparable to the Nazis.
No, I am right and you are wrong, as usual. Because you are unable of rigorous, unbiased thinking. Your mind doesn't know the difference between right and wrong, only the difference between favourable and unfavourable...An argument unfavourable to your misconceptions must necessarily be wrong.
No, I am right and you are wrong, as usual. Because you are unable of rigorous, unbiased thinking. Your mind doesn't know the difference between right and wrong, only the difference between favourable and unfavourable...An argument unfavourable to your misconceptions must necessarily be wrong.

I think your words apply to you. So I repeated them to you.
Unfortunately my argument perfectly applies to you and you haven't been able to refute it.

User avatar
cassowary
Posts: 4764
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:30 pm

Re: I fear for the future

Post by cassowary » Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:18 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:15 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:37 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:45 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:45 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:42 am
neverfail wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 5:32 pm


Just like the one that Beijing recently so blatantly dishonoured in Hong Kong? The Taiwanese would never be so stupid, Sertorio.
The size of Taiwan is not comparable to that of Hong Kong, and Taiwanese institutions are well established, which was not the case in Hong Kong, never a democracy under the British. And Hong Kong was being used to undermine Beijing's institutions, which could not happen in Taiwan, once it decided to accept Beijing's sovereignty.
You are talking rubbish again in order to defend an evil regime comparable to the Nazis.
No, I am right and you are wrong, as usual. Because you are unable of rigorous, unbiased thinking. Your mind doesn't know the difference between right and wrong, only the difference between favourable and unfavourable...An argument unfavourable to your misconceptions must necessarily be wrong.
No, I am right and you are wrong, as usual. Because you are unable of rigorous, unbiased thinking. Your mind doesn't know the difference between right and wrong, only the difference between favourable and unfavourable...An argument unfavourable to your misconceptions must necessarily be wrong.

I think your words apply to you. So I repeated them to you.
Unfortunately my argument perfectly applies to you and you haven't been able to refute it.
It is you who are unable to refute me.

Why are you supporting the world’s worst dictators?
The Imp :D

User avatar
Sertorio
Posts: 4828
Joined: Fri Dec 16, 2016 3:12 am

Re: I fear for the future

Post by Sertorio » Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:27 pm

cassowary wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:18 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:15 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:37 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:45 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:45 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:42 am


The size of Taiwan is not comparable to that of Hong Kong, and Taiwanese institutions are well established, which was not the case in Hong Kong, never a democracy under the British. And Hong Kong was being used to undermine Beijing's institutions, which could not happen in Taiwan, once it decided to accept Beijing's sovereignty.
You are talking rubbish again in order to defend an evil regime comparable to the Nazis.
No, I am right and you are wrong, as usual. Because you are unable of rigorous, unbiased thinking. Your mind doesn't know the difference between right and wrong, only the difference between favourable and unfavourable...An argument unfavourable to your misconceptions must necessarily be wrong.
No, I am right and you are wrong, as usual. Because you are unable of rigorous, unbiased thinking. Your mind doesn't know the difference between right and wrong, only the difference between favourable and unfavourable...An argument unfavourable to your misconceptions must necessarily be wrong.

I think your words apply to you. So I repeated them to you.
Unfortunately my argument perfectly applies to you and you haven't been able to refute it.
It is you who are unable to refute me.

Why are you supporting the world’s worst dictators?
Putin is not a dictator, and Russia and China should be thanked for being busy freeing us from the malign American Empire.

neverfail
Posts: 6593
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am
Location: Singapore

Re: I fear for the future

Post by neverfail » Thu Apr 01, 2021 4:57 pm

cassowary wrote:
Mon Mar 29, 2021 12:35 am
I think the US just wants to presever Taiwanese democracy.
Yet it recognises PRC soverignty - and with that the right of the CCP to rule in Taiwan. So does Singapore - as I believe that your country likewise has diplomatic ties with Beijing.
neverfail wrote:
Tue Mar 30, 2021 6:06 pm
Cassowary, I have seen too many instances over the years of US government policy lending support to tyrannies to believe they would now care a shit about Taiwan democracy - except insofar as this serves as a useful propaganda tool. More likely US policymakers treasure Taiwan for its geostrategic position off the coast of mainland Chinma and adjacent to Japan and the Philippines.
It’s just that expediency during the Cold War drove them to form alliances with capitalist and hence ant-communist dictators. What I see is the big picture. Those capitalist dictatorships that were allied with the US eventually became democracies. Taiwan, S Korea, Philippines are some examples.
You are blind if you presume benign intentions on the part of what you refer to as "capitalist dictatorships". The transition happened because (beginning with the Philippines - which is especially close to my heart) the people rose up against the regime (after the very public, and ill advised, assassanation of Ninoy Aquino) and the regime did not use anything like as much applied violence to put down the revolt as they had the potential to do.
On the other hand, Socialist dictatorships allied with the USSR remained dictatorships. N Korea, Cuba are examples.
Have you forgotten about the (1989 - 1991) serial overthrows of Socialist regimes in the Warsaw pact - in Poland, Czeckoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and East Germany spearheaded by Polish Solidarity? Not to mention in Mongolia and within the USSR itself. That impresses me more than the likes of North Korea and Cuba as holdouts.
The case of Venezuela is interesting.


Is it? Why?
There was a people’s power type protests to topple the regime but it failed because of Russian and Cuban support.


More likely the regime survived because the Venezualan army stood by it.

User avatar
cassowary
Posts: 4764
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:30 pm

Re: I fear for the future

Post by cassowary » Thu Apr 01, 2021 5:41 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:27 pm
cassowary wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 3:18 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 1:15 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Apr 01, 2021 12:37 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:45 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:45 am


You are talking rubbish again in order to defend an evil regime comparable to the Nazis.
No, I am right and you are wrong, as usual. Because you are unable of rigorous, unbiased thinking. Your mind doesn't know the difference between right and wrong, only the difference between favourable and unfavourable...An argument unfavourable to your misconceptions must necessarily be wrong.
No, I am right and you are wrong, as usual. Because you are unable of rigorous, unbiased thinking. Your mind doesn't know the difference between right and wrong, only the difference between favourable and unfavourable...An argument unfavourable to your misconceptions must necessarily be wrong.

I think your words apply to you. So I repeated them to you.
Unfortunately my argument perfectly applies to you and you haven't been able to refute it.
It is you who are unable to refute me.

Why are you supporting the world’s worst dictators?
Putin is not a dictator, and Russia and China should be thanked for being busy freeing us from the malign American Empire.
It’s the other way around. America should be thanked for protecting Europe and Asia from Russia and China.
The Imp :D

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