The Future of Russia and of Europe

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Sertorio
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Re: The Future of Russia and of Europe

Post by Sertorio » Wed Feb 17, 2021 2:49 am

Alexis wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:36 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:32 am
It's understandable that, based on what these pictures show, Russia's police brutality is rightly singled out to be the target of universal condemnation... Isn't it Alexis?... :D
The incident in the US which you cited happened after Antifa protesters had thrown bricks at policemen.

Same for the incident in France, violent demonstrators had thrown stones at police.

Do not conflate that with massive arrests (> 10,000) of people who were peacefully demonstrating, as in Russia January-February this year. Followed in some cases by acts of torture - refer to the Russian language article I was linking in my previous post.

I think you would enrich your knowledge of the real Russia by reading more of non-governmental Russian language media (such as Novaya Gazeta and others) and less of Russian governmental media in other languages than Russian (such as RT or Sputnik). The latter being essentially propaganda outlets.
I am old enough, smart enough and educated enough (PhD in Political Science) to know the difference between facts and propaganda. Something I am not sure you are always capable of. Protests in favour of an irrelevant figure like Navalny and the way police has reacted to them are minor incidents compared to what has been happening in the US and in some parts of Europe. Russia has such a normal and mostly peaceful life that some people abroad are constantly promoting fake incidents in order to justify a negative attitude towards Russia. Putin is mostly liked in Russia, the economy has got consistently better and more diversified since Putin became President, Russians are better off, Russian armed forces are stronger and more capable to protect Russian interests, American space of maneuver to do mischief in areas like the ME has been progressively restricted. Russia is a success case compared with most countries. And if its democratic processes are somewhat flawed, Russia is still freer today than it ever was throughout its history. What's your problem with Russia?!...

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Sertorio
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Re: The Future of Russia and of Europe

Post by Sertorio » Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:14 am

Russia holds the key to German sovereignty
By Pepe Escobar, February 17,2021
https://asiatimes.com/2021/02/russia-ho ... vereignty/

(...)

It’s all about sovereignty

Rabid Atlanticists argue that non-entity Navalny is directly related to Nord Stream 2. Nonsense: Navalny was built (italics mine) by the usual suspects as a battering ram to undermine Nord Stream 2.

The reason is that the pipeline will consolidate Berlin at the core of the EU’s energy policy. And that will be a major factor in the EU’s overall foreign policy – with Germany, at least in theory, exercising more autonomy in relation to the US.

So here’s the “dirty” secret: it’s all a matter of sovereignty. Every geopolitical and geoeconomic player knows who does not want a closer Germany-Russia entente.

Now imagine a hegemonic Germany in Europe forging closer trade and investment ties with not only Russia but also China (and that’s the other “secret” inbuilt in the EU-China trade-investment deal).

So whoever is lodged in the White House, there’s nothing else to expect from the US Deep State apart from the “maniacal” push towards perennial, accumulated sanctions.

The ball is actually in Berlin’s court, much more than in the court of eurocratic nightmare Brussels, where everyone’s future priority amounts to receiving their full, fat retirement pensions tax-free.

Berlin’s strategic priority is more exports – within the EU and most of all to Asia. German industrialists and the business classes know exactly what Nord Stream 2 represents: increasingly assertive German sovereignty guiding the heart of the EU, which translates as increased EU sovereignty.

An immensely significant sign has been recently delivered by Berlin with the approval granted for imports of the Sputnik vaccine.

Is Musil’s sense of possibility already in play? It’s too early to tell. The hegemon has unleashed a no-holds-barred hybrid war against Russia since 2014. This war may not be kinetic; roughly, it’s 70% financial and 30% infowar.

A more sovereign Germany closer to Russia and China may be the straw that breaks the hegemon’s back.
As usual - but some of will disagree - Pepe Escobar makes a shrewd analysis of relations between Europe and Russia. Let's hope the German government will see it in the same way.

neverfail
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Re: The Future of Russia and of Europe

Post by neverfail » Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:58 pm

A more sovereign Germany closer to Russia and China may be the straw that breaks the hegemon’s back.

https://asiatimes.com/2021/02/russia-ho ... vereignty/
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:14 am
As usual - but some of will disagree - Pepe Escobar makes a shrewd analysis of relations between Europe and Russia. Let's hope the German government will see it in the same way.
"Shrewd"? I think not! This latest PE essay looks like just another beat-up.

True that Germany's wholesale reliance on imported oil and gas might be seen as a kind of economic Achilles heel: yet Germany has arguably enjoyed energy "security" for years via the international oil market. If Germany imports more oil and gas from Russia (it is happening now and has been for years) than from any other single source (curerently around one third of total) it is not because Germany needs to seek "additional soverignty" (the country already has as much as it needs) but because in the case of Germany Russia is a (cost effective) competitive supplier. When it ceases to be so Germany will no doubt divert its purchases elsewhere.

Energy is a factor in production and transport but a modern market economy runs on money far more than it does on oil and gas. That is where Escobar makes an entirely false presumption.

As for US "hegemony": Escobar puts his own economic illiteracy on display (again) by failing to examine the bigger picture (just as you, Sertorio, reveal your gullibility by believing him). Take a look at just who Germany's biggest foreign trading partners are:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... of_Germany

Russia does not even show up among Germany's top ten external trading partners either as an export outlet or as a supplier of imports. Relatively insignificent in Germany's overall scheme of things!

By contrast the United States is prominent both as Germany's most important buyer of exports and as third most important source of imports. This has happened not because of government directives from Berlin and Washington compelling it to be so but because Americans buyers happen to like a lot of German products - and likewise the USA is a cost-effective supplier of a lot of goods and services that Germany imports. No sign of US hegemony to compel such a trade pattern.

Hell! Poland is far from being the richest EU member state and has no oil or gas of its own to send to Germany yet Germany does a lot more business both ways even with Poland than with Russia.

China is now firmly established as Germany's single biggest source of imports and third most important export outlet yet it does not mean that Germany is tempted to form an anti-USA pact with this country and Russia. The fact that China runs large surplus trade balances with Germany while the latter does the same with the USA means that Germany would be foolish to jeopardise its commercial ties with the USA in favour of China. Forget Russia: that's just the opportunist hitchiker standing by the roadside.

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Re: The Future of Russia and of Europe

Post by Sertorio » Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:50 pm

neverfail wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 1:58 pm
A more sovereign Germany closer to Russia and China may be the straw that breaks the hegemon’s back.

https://asiatimes.com/2021/02/russia-ho ... vereignty/
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:14 am
As usual - but some of will disagree - Pepe Escobar makes a shrewd analysis of relations between Europe and Russia. Let's hope the German government will see it in the same way.
"Shrewd"? I think not! This latest PE essay looks like just another beat-up.

True that Germany's wholesale reliance on imported oil and gas might be seen as a kind of economic Achilles heel: yet Germany has arguably enjoyed energy "security" for years via the international oil market. If Germany imports more oil and gas from Russia (it is happening now and has been for years) than from any other single source (curerently around one third of total) it is not because Germany needs to seek "additional soverignty" (the country already has as much as it needs) but because in the case of Germany Russia is a (cost effective) competitive supplier. When it ceases to be so Germany will no doubt divert its purchases elsewhere.

Energy is a factor in production and transport but a modern market economy runs on money far more than it does on oil and gas. That is where Escobar makes an entirely false presumption.

As for US "hegemony": Escobar puts his own economic illiteracy on display (again) by failing to examine the bigger picture (just as you, Sertorio, reveal your gullibility by believing him). Take a look at just who Germany's biggest foreign trading partners are:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... of_Germany

Russia does not even show up among Germany's top ten external trading partners either as an export outlet or as a supplier of imports. Relatively insignificent in Germany's overall scheme of things!

By contrast the United States is prominent both as Germany's most important buyer of exports and as third most important source of imports. This has happened not because of government directives from Berlin and Washington compelling it to be so but because Americans buyers happen to like a lot of German products - and likewise the USA is a cost-effective supplier of a lot of goods and services that Germany imports. No sign of US hegemony to compel such a trade pattern.

Hell! Poland is far from being the richest EU member state and has no oil or gas of its own to send to Germany yet Germany does a lot more business both ways even with Poland than with Russia.

China is now firmly established as Germany's single biggest source of imports and third most important export outlet yet it does not mean that Germany is tempted to form an anti-USA pact with this country and Russia. The fact that China runs large surplus trade balances with Germany while the latter does the same with the USA means that Germany would be foolish to jeopardise its commercial ties with the USA in favour of China. Forget Russia: that's just the opportunist hitchiker standing by the roadside.
For the time being Germany is not fully sovereign, it is a vassal state to the US, partially occupied by unnecessary American military forces. A closer relationship of Germany and Europe with both Russia and China could finally liberate us from American political and economic control. That's what Escobar is saying, and he is right. Whether Germany will have the courage to break its chains that's something we will have to wait to see. But one thing is sure, the US no longer has the means to prevent it and Europe once more becoming free and independent.

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Re: The Future of Russia and of Europe

Post by neverfail » Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:31 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:50 pm


For the time being Germany is not fully sovereign, it is a vassal state to the US
, partially occupied by unnecessary American military forces. A closer relationship of Germany and Europe with both Russia and China could finally liberate us from American political and economic control. That's what Escobar is saying, and he is right. Whether Germany will have the courage to break its chains that's something we will have to wait to see. But one thing is sure, the US no longer has the means to prevent it and Europe once more becoming free and independent.
Your above reference moved me to key in the question to Google Has any German government ever requested US troops to be withdrawn? Instead of the pat answer I was hoping for a got a lot of responses just like these:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53077829

Why Trump's plan to withdraw US troops has dismayed Germany


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... -us-troops

Regrettable': Germany reacts to Trump plan to withdraw US troops

I wondered myself why three decades after the end of the Cold War there were still approx. 35.000 US troops still based in Germany. The expressions of dismay from within Germany voicing opposition to Trump's unilateral announcement of US troop withdrawls point's to one thing: any German government over the past 30 years could have requested their withdrawl but none of them did.

They are there because German governments (for reasons that only they, not I, know) want them to remain.

A "vassal state" is an imposed upon country that has foreign troops stationed on its soil though it's people, possibly even its government, very likely does not want them to be there. This is clearly not the case with Germany.

Sertorio, can you not visualise NATO as anything better than the Western mirror image of the Soviet Union's old Warsaw Pact? Can you not grasp that NATO was and is a concensual pact of mutual self-defence in which even the smallent members have a say in matters of policy? God almighty, when are you guys ever going to learn?

Jim the Moron
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Re: The Future of Russia and of Europe

Post by Jim the Moron » Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:43 pm

neverfail wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:31 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:50 pm


For the time being Germany is not fully sovereign, it is a vassal state to the US
, partially occupied by unnecessary American military forces. A closer relationship of Germany and Europe with both Russia and China could finally liberate us from American political and economic control. That's what Escobar is saying, and he is right. Whether Germany will have the courage to break its chains that's something we will have to wait to see. But one thing is sure, the US no longer has the means to prevent it and Europe once more becoming free and independent.
Your above reference moved me to key in the question to Google Has any German government ever requested US troops to be withdrawn? Instead of the pat answer I was hoping for a got a lot of responses just like these:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53077829

Why Trump's plan to withdraw US troops has dismayed Germany


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... -us-troops

Regrettable': Germany reacts to Trump plan to withdraw US troops

I wondered myself why three decades after the end of the Cold War there were still approx. 35.000 US troops still based in Germany. The expressions of dismay from within Germany voicing opposition to Trump's unilateral announcement of US troop withdrawls point's to one thing: any German government over the past 30 years could have requested their withdrawl but none of them did.

They are there because German governments (for reasons that only they, not I, know) want them to remain.

A "vassal state" is an imposed upon country that has foreign troops stationed on its soil though it's people, possibly even its government, very likely does not want them to be there. This is clearly not the case with Germany.

Sertorio, can you not visualise NATO as anything better than the Western mirror image of the Soviet Union's old Warsaw Pact? Can you not grasp that NATO was and is a concensual pact of mutual self-defence in which even the smallent members have a say in matters of policy? God almighty, when are you guys ever going to learn?

All of this is moot. Joe "one-horse pony" Biden has reversed Trump's plan.

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Re: The Future of Russia and of Europe

Post by Doc » Wed Feb 17, 2021 9:05 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:43 pm
neverfail wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:31 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:50 pm


For the time being Germany is not fully sovereign, it is a vassal state to the US
, partially occupied by unnecessary American military forces. A closer relationship of Germany and Europe with both Russia and China could finally liberate us from American political and economic control. That's what Escobar is saying, and he is right. Whether Germany will have the courage to break its chains that's something we will have to wait to see. But one thing is sure, the US no longer has the means to prevent it and Europe once more becoming free and independent.
Your above reference moved me to key in the question to Google Has any German government ever requested US troops to be withdrawn? Instead of the pat answer I was hoping for a got a lot of responses just like these:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53077829

Why Trump's plan to withdraw US troops has dismayed Germany


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... -us-troops

Regrettable': Germany reacts to Trump plan to withdraw US troops

I wondered myself why three decades after the end of the Cold War there were still approx. 35.000 US troops still based in Germany. The expressions of dismay from within Germany voicing opposition to Trump's unilateral announcement of US troop withdrawls point's to one thing: any German government over the past 30 years could have requested their withdrawl but none of them did.

They are there because German governments (for reasons that only they, not I, know) want them to remain.

A "vassal state" is an imposed upon country that has foreign troops stationed on its soil though it's people, possibly even its government, very likely does not want them to be there. This is clearly not the case with Germany.

Sertorio, can you not visualise NATO as anything better than the Western mirror image of the Soviet Union's old Warsaw Pact? Can you not grasp that NATO was and is a concensual pact of mutual self-defence in which even the smallent members have a say in matters of policy? God almighty, when are you guys ever going to learn?

All of this is moot. Joe "one-horse pony" Biden has reversed Trump's plan.
The only thing Germans have to fear is the Germans themselves.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Sertorio
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Re: The Future of Russia and of Europe

Post by Sertorio » Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:27 am

neverfail wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 8:31 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Feb 17, 2021 3:50 pm


For the time being Germany is not fully sovereign, it is a vassal state to the US
, partially occupied by unnecessary American military forces. A closer relationship of Germany and Europe with both Russia and China could finally liberate us from American political and economic control. That's what Escobar is saying, and he is right. Whether Germany will have the courage to break its chains that's something we will have to wait to see. But one thing is sure, the US no longer has the means to prevent it and Europe once more becoming free and independent.
Your above reference moved me to key in the question to Google Has any German government ever requested US troops to be withdrawn? Instead of the pat answer I was hoping for a got a lot of responses just like these:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53077829

Why Trump's plan to withdraw US troops has dismayed Germany


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... -us-troops

Regrettable': Germany reacts to Trump plan to withdraw US troops

I wondered myself why three decades after the end of the Cold War there were still approx. 35.000 US troops still based in Germany. The expressions of dismay from within Germany voicing opposition to Trump's unilateral announcement of US troop withdrawls point's to one thing: any German government over the past 30 years could have requested their withdrawl but none of them did.

They are there because German governments (for reasons that only they, not I, know) want them to remain.

A "vassal state" is an imposed upon country that has foreign troops stationed on its soil though it's people, possibly even its government, very likely does not want them to be there. This is clearly not the case with Germany.

Sertorio, can you not visualise NATO as anything better than the Western mirror image of the Soviet Union's old Warsaw Pact? Can you not grasp that NATO was and is a concensual pact of mutual self-defence in which even the smallent members have a say in matters of policy? God almighty, when are you guys ever going to learn?
I wish NATO had been a mirror image of the Warsaw Pact, which was disbanded in 1991. But rather than putting an end to its existence, NATO remained in order to serve the US militaristic interests.

Why hasn't Germany and the other European countries left NATO? My guess is that they knew that:

1. The US wanted NATO to exist;
2. European countries depended - up to a point - economically from the US and didn't want to be economically harmed by displeasing the US;
3. The US is quite willing to wage economic war on countries which do not toe its line, as we have seen with the 5G and the Nord Stream 2.

So, better stay in NATO and avoid US displeasure. And staying with NATO seemed cheaper than going their own way, from a defense point of view. Does that make European states vassals of the US? Up to a point it does. And now that China and, in a smaller degree Russia, are becoming economically and strategically important to Europe, some European countries are starting to think that the price of displeasing the US is worth paying. That may encourage us to break free. And when we do, we will see that the US was mostly a paper tiger, and that being independent is much better than being dependent...

neverfail
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Re: The Future of Russia and of Europe

Post by neverfail » Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:13 am

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:27 am


I wish NATO had been a mirror image of the Warsaw Pact, which was disbanded in 1991. But rather than putting an end to its existence, NATO remained in order to serve the US militaristic interests.
Had your country been a member of the Warsaw Pact it (and you) would wish that it never had been just like Poland..
Why hasn't Germany and the other European countries left NATO? My guess is that they knew that:

2. European countries depended - up to a point - economically from the US and didn't want to be economically harmed by displeasing the US;
Well, does not the US, likewise, depend on Europe up to a point as well? I cannot believe that the Europeans could be guilty of the cowardice you allude to.
3. The US is quite willing to wage economic war on countries which do not toe its line, as we have seen with the 5G and the Nord Stream 2.
I find that Nord stream 2 curious because of its route. The obvious route for a Russia to Germany pipeline is across Poland. Laying the pipeline along the bed of the Baltic Sea just had to be a more expensive option. It looks to me that Russia has planned the route (and presumably borne the additional costs) as a deliberate snub on Poland and the Baltic States. I am surprised at the German government for its gross insensativity towards its neighbours to the northeast for agreeing to such a deal. No wonder other European countries are still wary of German motives.

Regardless of what Germany does or does not do you can be certain that Poland and the Baltics will cling ever more tightly to the United States.
So, better stay in NATO and avoid US displeasure. And staying with NATO seemed cheaper than going their own way, from a defense point of view. Does that make European states vassals of the US? Up to a point it does. And now that China and, in a smaller degree Russia, are becoming economically and strategically important to Europe, some European countries are starting to think that the price of displeasing the US is worth paying. That may encourage us to break free. And when we do, we will see that the US was mostly a paper tiger, and that being independent is much better than being dependent...
Beware China! It wages economic war on countries (like mine) that displeases it too - but I have noticed that like a true hypocrite you seem to approve of that. What's the difference?

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Sertorio
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Re: The Future of Russia and of Europe

Post by Sertorio » Thu Feb 18, 2021 6:54 am

neverfail wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:13 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 1:27 am

2. European countries depended - up to a point - economically from the US and didn't want to be economically harmed by displeasing the US;
Well, does not the US, likewise, depend on Europe up to a point as well? I cannot believe that the Europeans could be guilty of the cowardice you allude to.
I'm afraid we are a lot more coward than I would like. We capitulate far too easily when faced with US diktat.
neverfail wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:13 am
3. The US is quite willing to wage economic war on countries which do not toe its line, as we have seen with the 5G and the Nord Stream 2.
I find that Nord stream 2 curious because of its route. The obvious route for a Russia to Germany pipeline is across Poland. Laying the pipeline along the bed of the Baltic Sea just had to be a more expensive option. It looks to me that Russia has planned the route (and presumably borne the additional costs) as a deliberate snub on Poland and the Baltic States. I am surprised at the German government for its gross insensativity towards its neighbours to the northeast for agreeing to such a deal. No wonder other European countries are still wary of German motives.
Laying the pipeline along the Baltic Sea will save transit fees and will prevent being subject to Ukrainian and Polish blackmail. Nord Stream 2 will prevent western Europe becoming the hostage of the Eastern Europe russophobic hysteria.
neverfail wrote:
Thu Feb 18, 2021 4:13 am
Beware China! It wages economic war on countries (like mine) that displeases it too - but I have noticed that like a true hypocrite you seem to approve of that. What's the difference?
China has never acted aggressively towards Europe and I do not expect it ever happening. But then we do not follow the US in its anti-Chinese policies.

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