The Future of Russia and of Europe

Discussion of current events
neverfail
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Re: The Future of Russia and of Europe

Post by neverfail » Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:15 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:07 am

Europe and Russia are natural partners. There is geographic continuity and there is economic complementarity, with Russia supplying (for now) mostly natural resources mineral and agricultural, and Europe supplying consumer goods. Russia may be demographically much smaller than the present EU, but people is not the only factor to be taken into consideration, when thinking strategically. Size and natural resources as well as geographical position are at least as important. And actual military power. Seen all together, Russia has at least as much to offer as Europe to a strategic partnership. Is distance a problem? Yes, but land transportation can be efficient and economic, if properly developed. As we have seen in the US. Within the US land mass there is no maritime transportation, just land transportation, and it works. So would it work within the Lisbon to Vladivostok Eurasian continent.

The problem facing this strategic partnership is the US being opposed to it, and present European governments being still conditioned by the US global interests. If we succeed in having true Europeans taking office at least in France and Germany, then the American stranglehold will be broken and Europe and Russia will be able to work together to contain both American and Chinese hegemonic wet dreams.

The danger of Russia choosing to side with China is real, if Europe continues its suicidal submission to US interests. And as Russia develops its consumer goods production and intermediary industrial goods, it would find in China a market large enough to compensate for any loss on the European side. But that's not the ideal situation, and Pepe Escobar hopes that Europe will eventually come to understand where its interests lie.

For now Europe is bent on trying to destroy Putin's Russia, as if that was at all possible. If Navalny is the best person they can find to do it, then they better forget it. Navalny is a non-entity who is so unsuitable to serve Europe's illusions that he has even accepted Crimea's integration in the Russian Federation! Russia may be made uncomfortable by Western sanctions, but Russia is too dynamic a country not to be able to overcome them. We have already seen how agriculture has been developed so that no western boycott of food stuffs can bother Russia. Eventually light and consumer goods production will be able to satisfy most of Russia's needs. Cars and commercial aircraft are next in line to replace European products. As time goes by Russian vulnerabilities will decrease and Europe will find it increasingly difficult to contain Russia. Hopefully Europe will understand that Russia has a lot more to offer it than the US, and that a real Eurasian bloc could greatly contribute to Europe's prosperity and to peace in the world.
Wishful thinking Sertorio. Fantasising!

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Sertorio
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Re: The Future of Russia and of Europe

Post by Sertorio » Mon Feb 15, 2021 1:24 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 12:15 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 2:07 am

Europe and Russia are natural partners. There is geographic continuity and there is economic complementarity, with Russia supplying (for now) mostly natural resources mineral and agricultural, and Europe supplying consumer goods. Russia may be demographically much smaller than the present EU, but people is not the only factor to be taken into consideration, when thinking strategically. Size and natural resources as well as geographical position are at least as important. And actual military power. Seen all together, Russia has at least as much to offer as Europe to a strategic partnership. Is distance a problem? Yes, but land transportation can be efficient and economic, if properly developed. As we have seen in the US. Within the US land mass there is no maritime transportation, just land transportation, and it works. So would it work within the Lisbon to Vladivostok Eurasian continent.

The problem facing this strategic partnership is the US being opposed to it, and present European governments being still conditioned by the US global interests. If we succeed in having true Europeans taking office at least in France and Germany, then the American stranglehold will be broken and Europe and Russia will be able to work together to contain both American and Chinese hegemonic wet dreams.

The danger of Russia choosing to side with China is real, if Europe continues its suicidal submission to US interests. And as Russia develops its consumer goods production and intermediary industrial goods, it would find in China a market large enough to compensate for any loss on the European side. But that's not the ideal situation, and Pepe Escobar hopes that Europe will eventually come to understand where its interests lie.

For now Europe is bent on trying to destroy Putin's Russia, as if that was at all possible. If Navalny is the best person they can find to do it, then they better forget it. Navalny is a non-entity who is so unsuitable to serve Europe's illusions that he has even accepted Crimea's integration in the Russian Federation! Russia may be made uncomfortable by Western sanctions, but Russia is too dynamic a country not to be able to overcome them. We have already seen how agriculture has been developed so that no western boycott of food stuffs can bother Russia. Eventually light and consumer goods production will be able to satisfy most of Russia's needs. Cars and commercial aircraft are next in line to replace European products. As time goes by Russian vulnerabilities will decrease and Europe will find it increasingly difficult to contain Russia. Hopefully Europe will understand that Russia has a lot more to offer it than the US, and that a real Eurasian bloc could greatly contribute to Europe's prosperity and to peace in the world.
Wishful thinking Sertorio. Fantasising!
What is there of fantasy in my ideas? Everything I said is not only possible but probable. What do you have to counter what I said?

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Alexis
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Re: The Future of Russia and of Europe

Post by Alexis » Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:37 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:13 am
Alexis wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:48 pm
NATO asset and convicted fraudster Navalny
"NATO asset" is mere slander. "Convicted" refers to a kangaroo court.
Or not...
According to the judgment by a Moscow court, Navalny had failed to regularly report to the Federal Penitentiary Service. Consequently, the suspended sentence of 2014 was replaced by nearly three-years in prison, as Navalny’s excuse for non-appearance was deemed insufficient. Back in 2014, the activist was found guilty of embezzling 30 million rubles ($400,000) from two companies, including the French cosmetics brand Yves Rocher, in a case Navalny claims was politically motivated.

https://www.rt.com/business/515544-toug ... rd-stream/
That's what the Russian government says.

Ask yourself what Russians say. They know who their justice system obeys to.

If you don't know actual Russian people, you can check the comment section on Navalny canal on Youtube and use the automated translation function of your navigator.

Ask yourself while among the almost 100 k comments on January 28th video with Navalny's declaration to tribunal, the vast majority is contemptuous of the tribunal and supportive of Navalny.

Or why among the more than 1,7 M comments to January 19th video about Putin's palace the views expressed are similar.

Ellen
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Re: The Future of Russia and of Europe

Post by Ellen » Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:11 am

Yes, it looks like finally the Russian population is realizing that their leadership cares nothing for the people and is only a group of bullying thieves, like their Syrian and Iranian allies.

It's about time they wake up to reality. Now, the question is will they do anything about it like protest or revolt in a meaningful way? I doubt it.

But, Putin may choose to retire soon anyway. Supposedly, he has Parkinson's Disease, and he already understands that we live in a new era of accountability. Even in Russia. He isn't cut out for this type of politics. He is a true product of the Soviet system; perhaps the last one in Russian public life.

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Sertorio
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Re: The Future of Russia and of Europe

Post by Sertorio » Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:33 am

Ellen wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:11 am
Yes, it looks like finally the Russian population is realizing that their leadership cares nothing for the people and is only a group of bullying thieves, like their Syrian and Iranian allies.

It's about time they wake up to reality. Now, the question is will they do anything about it like protest or revolt in a meaningful way? I doubt it.

But, Putin may choose to retire soon anyway. Supposedly, he has Parkinson's Disease, and he already understands that we live in a new era of accountability. Even in Russia. He isn't cut out for this type of politics. He is a true product of the Soviet system; perhaps the last one in Russian public life.
Compared to the US, I would say that the Russian leadership cares a lot about the people. So much so that about two thirds of the people support them and vote for them. And we do not see in Russia the riots we regularly see in the US. And the thieves Putin expelled from the country were a lot more dangerous than those which remained behind. At least in Russia political power controls economic power, while in the US it is the other way around. Faced with incompetents as we do in the West, we should be more moderate in our judgement of the Russian leadership.

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Sertorio
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Re: The Future of Russia and of Europe

Post by Sertorio » Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:38 am

Alexis wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 10:37 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Mon Feb 15, 2021 3:13 am
Alexis wrote:
Sun Feb 14, 2021 3:48 pm
NATO asset and convicted fraudster Navalny
"NATO asset" is mere slander. "Convicted" refers to a kangaroo court.
Or not...
According to the judgment by a Moscow court, Navalny had failed to regularly report to the Federal Penitentiary Service. Consequently, the suspended sentence of 2014 was replaced by nearly three-years in prison, as Navalny’s excuse for non-appearance was deemed insufficient. Back in 2014, the activist was found guilty of embezzling 30 million rubles ($400,000) from two companies, including the French cosmetics brand Yves Rocher, in a case Navalny claims was politically motivated.

https://www.rt.com/business/515544-toug ... rd-stream/
That's what the Russian government says.

Ask yourself what Russians say. They know who their justice system obeys to.

If you don't know actual Russian people, you can check the comment section on Navalny canal on Youtube and use the automated translation function of your navigator.

Ask yourself while among the almost 100 k comments on January 28th video with Navalny's declaration to tribunal, the vast majority is contemptuous of the tribunal and supportive of Navalny.

Or why among the more than 1,7 M comments to January 19th video about Putin's palace the views expressed are similar.
All those Navalny supporters are but a drop of water in the ocean of the Russian population. Marine Le Pen has a lot more support in France, and people keep dismissing her as irrelevant and would dislike seeing her as President. Navalny is worth a lot less than Le Pen and is seen as a saviour...

neverfail
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Re: The Future of Russia and of Europe

Post by neverfail » Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:40 am

well, at least no one has attempted to poison le Pen.

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Alexis
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Re: The Future of Russia and of Europe

Post by Alexis » Tue Feb 16, 2021 2:51 am

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 12:33 am
And we do not see in Russia the riots we regularly see in the US.
Let me introduce you to OMON

Image

You are not allowed to take part to unlawful demonstrations, defined as : any demonstration which the regime doesn't like.

If you fail to understand or accept that fact, those gentlemen stand ready to explain it more thoroughly. Your being completely peaceful won't stop them.

And if you don't obey fast enough, your being on the ground, your being a woman won't stop them using clubs. Nor calling you what you are
Ye bitches, everybody face against the wall!
It's the clubbing and the name-calling that makes them gentlemen.

Also, if you happen to work for public sector, don't expect you will still have your job the day after when you are spotted in such a demonstration. I mean, you were not naive enough to imagine keeping it, were you?

As for what happened to those protesting against corruption of the Russian government in general, and condemnation of a political opponent by a kangaroo court, read what the Russians are saying.
After the January-February 2021 protests, more than 10,000 people were detained throughout Russia. Many of them - who later received fines or administrative arrests - began to speak of brutality on the part of security forces, who used brute force against them not only on the streets, but also in police stations. "Novaya Gazeta presented the testimony of Peter Sokov, who came out for a rally in St. Petersburg: he said that at Police Station #77 in the Admiralty district, he was insulted and threatened with rape in his "cell with Chechens" and beaten to the point where people "piss blood" and "tell everything in drool and snot. The story of the Kitaev sisters from Moscow also resonated. One of the girls said that a security guard kicked her, put a bag on her head, and threatened to use a stun gun if she did not unlock her phone. Another sister was threatened with breaking her fingers. After reports about them in the media, the Moscow Department of Internal Affairs even announced an inspection.

(...)
(More at the link)

If similar standards were applied in Portugal, you would scream dictatorship.

Also, you would be right.

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Sertorio
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Re: The Future of Russia and of Europe

Post by Sertorio » Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:32 am

Police Brutality

1. Russia

Image


2. USA

Image


3. France

Image


It's understandable that, based on what these pictures show, Russia's police brutality is rightly singled out to be the target of universal condemnation... Isn't it Alexis?... :D

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Alexis
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Re: The Future of Russia and of Europe

Post by Alexis » Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:36 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Feb 16, 2021 10:32 am
It's understandable that, based on what these pictures show, Russia's police brutality is rightly singled out to be the target of universal condemnation... Isn't it Alexis?... :D
The incident in the US which you cited happened after Antifa protesters had thrown bricks at policemen.

Same for the incident in France, violent demonstrators had thrown stones at police.

Do not conflate that with massive arrests (> 10,000) of people who were peacefully demonstrating, as in Russia January-February this year. Followed in some cases by acts of torture - refer to the Russian language article I was linking in my previous post.

I think you would enrich your knowledge of the real Russia by reading more of non-governmental Russian language media (such as Novaya Gazeta and others) and less of Russian governmental media in other languages than Russian (such as RT or Sputnik). The latter being essentially propaganda outlets.

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