American / Western Superiority (?)

Discussion of current events
User avatar
Doc
Posts: 5105
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:09 pm
Location: Cradle To Grave

Re: American / Western Superiority (?)

Post by Doc » Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:10 am

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:02 am
Doc wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:50 pm

But since you seem to feel you know so much about economics, give an example of something outside of Mining manufacturing and farming that creates actual wealth... I'll wait.... ;)
You seem to think that wealth is necessarily attached to physical things, while in fact it is associated to utility. And while physical things may deliver utility, so do services. Mining, farming or manufactured goods only deliver wealth when they are used by someone, who is willing to pay for them. But an intangible thing like transportation also creates wealth because it enables a good to reach the person who wishes to acquire it. If you have a raw log it may be worthless, and planting and cutting the tree does not create wealth. But let someone transform through skill that log into a table, and it will have acquired value. The skill which changes the log into a table is a service and it creates wealth...
Again where did the people get the money from to pay for the goods transported to them? Taking a log and making it into something *IS* manufacturing. If the Tree did not exist the would be no tree to be made into anything.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

Ellen
Posts: 144
Joined: Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:02 pm

Re: American / Western Superiority (?)

Post by Ellen » Thu Feb 11, 2021 8:50 am

Jim the Moron wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:26 am
"The skill set of John Kerry, Samantha Powers, Obama, and that ilk . . .Which would you rather rely on? Mining wealth or the 'talent' of Ivy League blabber mouths?" (Ellen) Do I get to vote?

Wait until 2024!

neverfail
Posts: 6405
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am
Location: Singapore

Re: American / Western Superiority (?)

Post by neverfail » Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:57 pm

Doc wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:10 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:02 am
Doc wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:50 pm

But since you seem to feel you know so much about economics, give an example of something outside of Mining manufacturing and farming that creates actual wealth... I'll wait.... ;)
You seem to think that wealth is necessarily attached to physical things, while in fact it is associated to utility. And while physical things may deliver utility, so do services. Mining, farming or manufactured goods only deliver wealth when they are used by someone, who is willing to pay for them. But an intangible thing like transportation also creates wealth because it enables a good to reach the person who wishes to acquire it. If you have a raw log it may be worthless, and planting and cutting the tree does not create wealth. But let someone transform through skill that log into a table, and it will have acquired value. The skill which changes the log into a table is a service and it creates wealth...
Again where did the people get the money from to pay for the goods transported to them?
Moving goods from a region of production but low demand to one of zero production but high demand enhances their value Doc - at least in terms of utility and price. To return to my example of fruit and vegetables grown in California's Central Valley: since the population there is relatively small so is the market for locally grown fresh produce. So if the farmers and retailers in the Central Valley needed to rely exclusively on local demand predictably some would be sold at low prices while the rest would go to waste.

Moving these to the likes of LA and the San Francisco Bay townships (let alone across the country to the likes of New York and Chicago) where the market demand and zero local production of those items is does not change the produce physically but it makes it much more readily available for those who want it. Buyers in these massive urban centres and surrounding suburbs are paying for the convenience of not having to travel all of the way out to the Central Valley whenever they want fresh fruit anhd vegetables.

It also means the farmer/producers get a better price than they otherwise would if they had to rely only on local sales.

neverfail
Posts: 6405
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am
Location: Singapore

Re: American / Western Superiority (?)

Post by neverfail » Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:26 pm

beatnik wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 6:05 am
Services may provide added value that can be extracted from goods but in the absence of productive capacity, i.e. physical capital, they lose their value and disappear. When I used to cover the Israeli diamond industry most of the employment in the sector was in services, i.e. dealers, but the leadership of the exchange was adamant about retaining manufacturing capacity for high-value diamonds in Israel.

Otherwise, they feared, who would need/want to go to Israeli diamond dealers when everybody in the industry knows 90% of the worlds diamonds are polished in India. Moreover, how would the diamantaires in Israel gain experience in sorting and valuing rough and polished diamonds if they had no exposure to how the polished diamonds are made. Even the advanced technology that is used today by polishing factories around the world was made based on the investment of Israeli diamond manufacturers 20-30 years ago. The leadership said explicitly that they didn't want to end up like America.
Hi Beatnik,

The diamond trade seems to be a "natural" for Israel. Traditionally, diamond cutting, polishing and selling has been a Jewish dominated business and for good reason: there have always been wealthy Jews who like to hedge their fortunes by buying such high value stones just in case the day arrives when the local goyim turn against them and they need to seek out and flee to a foreign country of refuge. Being able to secret and smuggle out items of low bulk but high cashable value like precious stones has historically enabled such people to get off to a fresh start in their adopted countries. So while market demand by wealthy Jews in the diaspora would not be by any means the sole market for Israeli diamonds I imagine that it would help keep prices high.
The same is true of the semi-conductor industry in Israel, where Intel receives generous tax incentives to build some of its fabrication plants. The reason is because not only does it provide employment for factory workers but it also generates a lot of surrounding businesses and R&D activity that specialize in microchip design. These are high value service jobs that probably wouldn't exist here if there wasn't also a manufacturing base for the relevant goods.
It makes sense! While Britain let its manufacturing sector go Germany retained its own (rebuilt from scratch after the Second World War). But ever since the Federal Republic of Germany emerged from allied occupation German industry has reached out to a global market and has emphasised quality; value for money. For instance, the likes of Porsche, Mercedes Benz and BMW exemplify this factor in the automotive field.

In that regard Israel seems to be behaving somewhat like Germany. (But then, recalling that Yiddish, once the universal, unifying language of central and eastern European Jewry was/is a Germanic dialect then there seems to be an ancient cultural tie-up between Ashkenazim Jewry and German culture) :D .
In the West, the boom in service sector jobs in recent years has happened in low value employment like health care aides because it's not tied to productive physical capital.
What about hospital beds and operating theatres?

User avatar
Doc
Posts: 5105
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:09 pm
Location: Cradle To Grave

Re: American / Western Superiority (?)

Post by Doc » Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:01 am

neverfail wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 1:57 pm
Doc wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 7:10 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 5:02 am
Doc wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 10:50 pm

But since you seem to feel you know so much about economics, give an example of something outside of Mining manufacturing and farming that creates actual wealth... I'll wait.... ;)
You seem to think that wealth is necessarily attached to physical things, while in fact it is associated to utility. And while physical things may deliver utility, so do services. Mining, farming or manufactured goods only deliver wealth when they are used by someone, who is willing to pay for them. But an intangible thing like transportation also creates wealth because it enables a good to reach the person who wishes to acquire it. If you have a raw log it may be worthless, and planting and cutting the tree does not create wealth. But let someone transform through skill that log into a table, and it will have acquired value. The skill which changes the log into a table is a service and it creates wealth...
Again where did the people get the money from to pay for the goods transported to them?
Moving goods from a region of production but low demand to one of zero production but high demand enhances their value Doc - at least in terms of utility and price. To return to my example of fruit and vegetables grown in California's Central Valley: since the population there is relatively small so is the market for locally grown fresh produce. So if the farmers and retailers in the Central Valley needed to rely exclusively on local demand predictably some would be sold at low prices while the rest would go to waste.

Moving these to the likes of LA and the San Francisco Bay townships (let alone across the country to the likes of New York and Chicago) where the market demand and zero local production of those items is does not change the produce physically but it makes it much more readily available for those who want it. Buyers in these massive urban centres and surrounding suburbs are paying for the convenience of not having to travel all of the way out to the Central Valley whenever they want fresh fruit and vegetables.

It also means the farmer/producers get a better price than they otherwise would if they had to rely only on local sales.
Again where does the money originate from? Tree's? The answer to that is yes among other things. Farmer's plant trees which in turn take minerals out of the ground and sunshine from the sky.

If people buy produce in one region that is transported from another region Then the money ultimately came from Mining Manufacturing or farming of something else.If a city the most likely source of income is manufacturing. Money flows from where things are needed to where things are Mined Manufactured or Farmed. It is called division of labor. There is no need for people to all take in each other's laundry for people to make a living. Or on the other hand, to produce everything they need to live.

All wealth is created by Mining manufacturing and farming. That is sole means of creation of wealth. It is the foundation of division of labor. Besides the trucks for transport are manufactured, are they not?.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

neverfail
Posts: 6405
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am
Location: Singapore

Re: American / Western Superiority (?)

Post by neverfail » Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:57 pm

Doc wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:01 am
All wealth is created by Mining manufacturing and farming. That is sole means of creation of wealth. It is the foundation of division of labor. Besides the trucks for transport are manufactured, are they not?.
That is what they believed in the USSR of old and that concept proved to be very wrong.

Marxist economics failed to take into account the "enhanced value" provided by marketing and efficient distribution.

User avatar
Doc
Posts: 5105
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:09 pm
Location: Cradle To Grave

Re: American / Western Superiority (?)

Post by Doc » Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:40 pm

neverfail wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:57 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:01 am
All wealth is created by Mining manufacturing and farming. That is sole means of creation of wealth. It is the foundation of division of labor. Besides the trucks for transport are manufactured, are they not?.
That is what they believed in the USSR of old and that concept proved to be very wrong.

Marxist economics failed to take into account the "enhanced value" provided by marketing and efficient distribution.
You are not getting my point. Marketing and efficient distribution come only after Mining Manufacturing and Farming.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

neverfail
Posts: 6405
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am
Location: Singapore

Re: American / Western Superiority (?)

Post by neverfail » Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:19 pm

Doc wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:40 pm
neverfail wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:57 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:01 am
All wealth is created by Mining manufacturing and farming. That is sole means of creation of wealth. It is the foundation of division of labor. Besides the trucks for transport are manufactured, are they not?.
That is what they believed in the USSR of old and that concept proved to be very wrong.

Marxist economics failed to take into account the "enhanced value" provided by marketing and efficient distribution.
You are not getting my point. Marketing and efficient distribution come only after Mining Manufacturing and Farming.
I disagree! Without a market none of therse would have any incentive to produce.

User avatar
Doc
Posts: 5105
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 7:09 pm
Location: Cradle To Grave

Re: American / Western Superiority (?)

Post by Doc » Sat Feb 13, 2021 9:02 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:19 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:40 pm
neverfail wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:57 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:01 am
All wealth is created by Mining manufacturing and farming. That is sole means of creation of wealth. It is the foundation of division of labor. Besides the trucks for transport are manufactured, are they not?.
That is what they believed in the USSR of old and that concept proved to be very wrong.

Marxist economics failed to take into account the "enhanced value" provided by marketing and efficient distribution.
You are not getting my point. Marketing and efficient distribution come only after Mining Manufacturing and Farming.
I disagree! Without a market none of therse would have any incentive to produce.
ahhh personal survival?
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

neverfail
Posts: 6405
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am
Location: Singapore

Re: American / Western Superiority (?)

Post by neverfail » Sat Feb 13, 2021 10:10 pm

Doc wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 9:02 pm
neverfail wrote:
Sat Feb 13, 2021 3:19 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 7:40 pm
neverfail wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 2:57 pm
Doc wrote:
Fri Feb 12, 2021 6:01 am
All wealth is created by Mining manufacturing and farming. That is sole means of creation of wealth. It is the foundation of division of labor. Besides the trucks for transport are manufactured, are they not?.
That is what they believed in the USSR of old and that concept proved to be very wrong.

Marxist economics failed to take into account the "enhanced value" provided by marketing and efficient distribution.
You are not getting my point. Marketing and efficient distribution come only after Mining Manufacturing and Farming.
I disagree! Without a market none of therse would have any incentive to produce.
ahhh personal survival?
Cannibalism!

To avert such desperatiion is why we humans form communities - to assist one another to survive and prosper without resorting in desperation to slaughtering one another.

Post Reply