China and the US

Discussion of current events
neverfail
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Re: China and the US

Post by neverfail » Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:26 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:12 pm
neverfail wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:17 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 3:59 pm
Besides, both China and Russia have been the targets of sanctions by western countries, and I haven't seen you condemning them.
Quite right I haven't Sertorio. Those sanctions were well deserved, fullsomely invited, by Russia and China whereas those currently being imposed by the PRC on us are entirely gratituous.
Well deserved? You mean the double Novichok charade when Russia was supposed to want to poison some of its citizens, and then failed to do so? Is it sufficient for a couple of politicians to state that Russia's intent was "highly likely" for the use of Novichok by Russia to be considered proven? Or the legitimate exercise of the right of self-determination by the Crimean people (over 95% voted in favour of rejoining the Russian Federation)? Or the building of Nord-Stream 2 agreed upon by Germany and Russia? Or the accusation that China deliberately allowed the Covid 19 to infect the rest of the world?...

I'm waiting for you to condemn those sanctions as strongly as you accuse the sparse Chinese and Russian sanctions on third parties...
Cool down, Sertorio!

There is only so far that your or my righteous indignation can go - in light of the fact that it will not change anything.
.................................................................................................................................................

Bear in mind that Russia is normally barely a fraction of the interest to me as China. Russia is much furtherr removed from our domain out here. Not only in terms of geographical proximity but in other ways I can think of as well.

Nord Stream? Normally little more than a name to me. I gather that the US is concerned about a likely increase in Russian leverage over Germany via increased deliveries of Russian gas.Tthough I notice the Germans seem to be none too worried about it. :D

Crimea? Likewise remote from Australia with no obvious significence to us here - i.e. none of our business. Yet the annexation still has obvious, disturbing overtones of ansclaus" : Nazi Germany's 1938 annexation of Austria and then the Czech Sudatenland. True, the referendum revealed overwhealming support from (ethnic Russian) residents of the peninsula for change of soverignty from Ukraine to Russia but so what? Had a similar referendum been held in either Austria or the Sudatenland in early 1938 you very likely would have gotten similar majorities in favour of the moves. The failure of the Western powers at the time in opposing Hitler's expansionist ambitions (the fact that these may have had majority support at the time in the contested regions which Hitler exploited was/is beside the point)) only encouraged the German dictator to expand his territorial ambitions. The following year Hitler laid claim from some majority ethnic German border regions within Poland triggering off World War Two.

In order to avert future capastrophe on a similar magnatude: ever since there has been a rule in international diplomacy to the effect that frontiers are sacrostant and you will not change them under any circumstances. "Over this line thou shall not step - ever." It astonishes me that any European could be ignorent (in your case more likely deliberately blind) to the reason why this is so. After all, it all happened on your subcontinent.

Or the accusation that China deliberately allowed the Covid 19 to infect the rest of the world?... That's Trump's (unsubstanciated) allegation, not mine. Trump is notorious for making unsubstantated allegations at random. As far as I am concerned it was/is [ujust within the bounds of possibility[/u] that it may have happened but just the same highly unlikely. Frankly the allegation borders on absurdity!
Last edited by neverfail on Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sertorio
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Re: China and the US

Post by Sertorio » Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:42 pm

neverfail wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:26 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:12 pm
neverfail wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:17 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Dec 27, 2020 3:59 pm
Besides, both China and Russia have been the targets of sanctions by western countries, and I haven't seen you condemning them.
Quite right I haven't Sertorio. Those sanctions were well deserved, fullsomely invited, by Russia and China whereas those currently being imposed by the PRC on us are entirely gratituous.
Well deserved? You mean the double Novichok charade when Russia was supposed to want to poison some of its citizens, and then failed to do so? Is it sufficient for a couple of politicians to state that Russia's intent was "highly likely" for the use of Novichok by Russia to be considered proven? Or the legitimate exercise of the right of self-determination by the Crimean people (over 95% voted in favour of rejoining the Russian Federation)? Or the building of Nord-Stream 2 agreed upon by Germany and Russia? Or the accusation that China deliberately allowed the Covid 19 to infect the rest of the world?...

I'm waiting for you to condemn those sanctions as strongly as you accuse the sparse Chinese and Russian sanctions on third parties...
Cool down, Sertorio!

There is only so far that your or my righteous indignation can go - in light of the fact that it will not change anything.
.................................................................................................................................................

Bear in mind that Russia is normally barely a fraction of the interest to me as China;as it is much furtherr removed from our domain out here. Not only in terms of geographical proximity but in all other ways I can think of.

Nord Stream? Normally little more than a name to me. I gather that the US is concerned about a likely increase in Russian leverage over Germany though the Germans seem to be none too worried.

Crimea? Likewise remote from Australia with no obvious significence to us here - i.e. none of our business. Yet the annexation still has obvious, disturbing overtones of ansclaus" Nazi Germany's 1938 annexation of Austria and then the Czech Sudatenland. True the referendum revealed overwhealming support from Crimean (ethnic Russian) residents of the peninsula for change of soverignty from Ukraine to Russia but so what? Had a similar referendum been held in either Austria or the Sudatenland you very likely would have gotten a similar majority vote in favour of the move. The failure of the Western powers at the time in opposing Hitler's expansionist ambitions (indeed, they argubly indulged him at the time) only encouraged the German dictator. The following year Hitler laid claim from some majority ethnic German border regions within Poland triggering off World War Two.

Ever since there has been a rule in internation diplomacy that goes Internatiional frontiers are sacrostant and you will not change them under any circumstances. "Over this line thou shall not step - ever." It astonishes me that any European could be ignorent (in your case deliberately blind to) the reason. After all, it all happened on your subcontinent.

Or the accusation that China deliberately allowed the Covid 19 to infect the rest of the world?... That's Trump's allegation, not mine. As far as I am concerned it was/is within the bounds of possibility but just the same highly unlikely. The allegation borders on absurdity!
[/b]
There is something called right of self-determination, which means that a people or nation with a distinct culture or language, which feels strongly about its separate identity, and occupies a well defined territory, may decide - without needing anybody else's approval - to become a separate sovereign country, or to join an existing country sharing the same culture and language. Which is what the Crimeans did with overwhelming support of the people living in Crimea. Sanctioning Russia for having accepted the Crimean request to rejoin the Russian Federation is an attack on the right of self-determination. Even if affairs in Russia and the Ukraine do not concern you, maybe you should have spoken up in favour of such an important human right. Unless you only care about your own countries rights...

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Re: China and the US

Post by neverfail » Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:54 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:42 pm

There is something called right of self-determination, which means that a people or nation with a distinct culture or language, which feels strongly about its separate identity, and occupies a well defined territory, may decide - without needing anybody else's approval - to become a separate sovereign country, or to join an existing country sharing the same culture and language. Which is what the Crimeans did with overwhelming support of the people living in Crimea. Sanctioning Russia for having accepted the Crimean request to rejoin the Russian Federation is an attack on the right of self-determination. Even if affairs in Russia and the Ukraine do not concern you, maybe you should have spoken up in favour of such an important human right. Unless you only care about your own countries rights...
Cute!

Did the Austrians or Sudatenland Germans really gain "self determination" with the change of soverignty back in 1938? No! Both became mere hostages to Hitlers megalomanic plans leading to destruction for both, along with Germany proper.

Despite my marginal interest I take note of the fact that Crimean residents in the referendum were only given the choice of Unranian or Russian soverignty: in effect '"which master would you rather have?" without the third option of soverign independence from both. Was that really self-determination? I think not!

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Re: China and the US

Post by Sertorio » Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:22 pm

neverfail wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:54 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 3:42 pm

There is something called right of self-determination, which means that a people or nation with a distinct culture or language, which feels strongly about its separate identity, and occupies a well defined territory, may decide - without needing anybody else's approval - to become a separate sovereign country, or to join an existing country sharing the same culture and language. Which is what the Crimeans did with overwhelming support of the people living in Crimea. Sanctioning Russia for having accepted the Crimean request to rejoin the Russian Federation is an attack on the right of self-determination. Even if affairs in Russia and the Ukraine do not concern you, maybe you should have spoken up in favour of such an important human right. Unless you only care about your own countries rights...
Cute!

Did the Austrians or Sudatenland Germans really gain "self determination" with the change of soverignty back in 1938? No! Both became mere hostages to Hitlers megalomanic plans leading to destruction for both, along with Germany proper.

Despite my marginal interest I take note of the fact that Crimean residents in the referendum were only given the choice of Unranian or Russian soverignty: in effect '"which master would you rather have?" without the third option of soverign independence from both. Was that really self-determination? I think not!
Crimea actually split from the Ukraine before voting to rejoin the Russian Federation. As to the Austrian anschluss and the Sudetenland, these are not comparable to what happened in Crimea, since the former was imposed from the outside while the latter was a wholly decision by the Crimean people.

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Re: China and the US

Post by Sertorio » Tue Jan 26, 2021 10:15 am

The Dragon Has Woken and Washington Should Engage With It
by Brian Cloughley - January 26, 2021

https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/ ... e-with-it/

The story is told that when the Emperor Napoleon was in his final exile he was asked what he thought would be the development to have most impact on the future and replied with words to the effect “Let the Dragon China sleep, for when she wakes she will shake the world.” Although it’s a compelling and generally popular phrase it was entirely fabricated, for Napoleon never said anything of the sort. But the fact remains that whoever made up that non-quotation was absolutely spot on, because after millennia of chaotic evolution the dragon has indeed woken, and the world is being stirred, if not shaken.

In December Science Magazine recorded that “China’s Chang’e-5 mission made a triumphant return around 1 p.m. EST today, landing in the middle of the night on the dark frozen plains of Inner Mongolia… The capsule’s return marks the first time China has collected rocks from the Moon — and the first time any nation has accomplished the feat since 1976.” The mainstream media of the west acknowledged the accomplishment, albeit in line with the New York Times report that “Space now is fast becoming one more arena where the two countries might clash. Although China’s military and civilian space programs are still catching up with those in the United States, the country’s ambitions were part of the Trump administration’s motivation to set up a Space Force.”

China carried out a most demanding scientific operation that brought some 4 pounds of rocks to earth for analysis, and Space magazine noted that Li Chunlai, deputy chief of the project, was understandably upbeat about the mission’s success, observing among other things that the “Chinese government is ready to share the lunar samples including relevant data with all like-minded institutions from other countries”, which is a responsible and laudable attitude. The problem, however, is that Washington doesn’t want to cooperate with China and the moon rocks are unlikely to be shared.

As observed by Wu Yanhua, deputy director of the China National Space Administration, “It has been unfortunate [that] after a Congressional act [the Wolf Act] adopted in 2011 U.S. space institutions have been blocked from cooperating with China… On the basis of equality, mutual benefit and win-win cooperation we are willing to conduct sincere and friendly cooperation with U.S. institutions.”

The Wolf Act epitomises the attitude of successive U.S. administrations concerning China, and this over-assertive and even hostile approach has gathered impetus in recent years. Its peak was signposted by the now mercifully departed Secretary of State Pompeo in July 2020 when he delivered a diatribe titled “Communist China and the Free World’s Future” in which, as reported by the Council on Foreign Relations he declared “that the era of engagement with the Chinese Communist Party is over [and] calls on Chinese citizens and democracies worldwide to press Beijing to change its behaviour and respect the rules-based international order.”

In December, intending to set the scene for a post-Trump administration, Pompeo’s colleague John Ratcliffe, the Director of National Intelligence wrote a piece for the Wall Street Journal (owned by the Murdoch empire, which has no ties with China) headlined “China Is National Security Threat No. 1” in which he declared that “the People’s Republic of China poses the greatest threat to America today, and the greatest threat to democracy and freedom world-wide since World War II.”

To be sure, the PRC is far from being a democracy, being run by the Communist Party with no alternative political organisation being permitted, but this does not make it, by definition, a threat to America or anywhere else. It is an autocracy in some ways similar to Saudi Arabia, a close U.S. ally in which, as the State Department records “Significant human rights issues include: unlawful killings; executions for nonviolent offenses; forced disappearances; torture of prisoners and detainees by government agents; arbitrary arrest and detention; political prisoners; arbitrary interference with privacy; criminalization of libel, censorship, and site blocking; restrictions on freedoms of peaceful assembly, association, and movement; severe restrictions of religious freedom; citizens’ lack of ability and legal means to choose their government through free and fair elections…”

The undemocratic behaviour of the Saudi’s absolute monarchy does not prevent the U.S. having a “strong economic relationship” with the regime, and it is notable that “Saudi Arabia is the United States’ largest foreign military sales customer, with more than $100 billion in active cases.”

China does not buy weapons from the United States, and is an authoritarian state of 1.3 billion people whose leaders are intent on keeping the country together and improving the living standards of its citizens. The methods whereby its economic advances are being effected have attracted massive criticism and strong reaction by the United States, but so far as fourteen Asia-Pacific countries are concerned, it seems that negotiation, mediation and cooperation are deemed preferable to confrontation, provocation and insults.

The Association of South East Asian Nations, ASEAN, comprises Brunei, Cambodia, Indonesia, Laos, Malaysia, Myanmar, the Philippines, Singapore, Thailand and Vietnam, with a total population of some 650 million. It held its 37th Summit meeting in Hanoi in November 2020 and, along with five other countries, signed the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership which “is an agreement to broaden and deepen ASEAN’s engagement with Australia, China, Japan, Korea and New Zealand. Together, these RCEP participating countries account for about 30% of the global GDP and 30% of the world population. The objective of the Agreement is to establish a… mutually beneficial economic partnership that will facilitate the expansion of regional trade and investment and contribute to global economic growth and development… ”

Note that China is a partner in this international accord. It’s not the leader, and has not attempted to impose any sort of controls, curbs or limitations on its commercial associates. The Communist government in Beijing is pleased to be in an economic partnership with fourteen other countries having varying forms of government and in many cases very different approaches to world affairs. In turn, these nations realise that China is a great power and wish to expand their ties to their common benefit without in any way endorsing — or condemning — the political leaning of Beijing’s government.

But the United States steered clear of the Regional Economic Partnership, and unfortunately it seems that the new Biden administration is likely to continue confrontation with China rather than engaging in dialogue. Biden’s picks for senior appointments in his executive departments are not expected to agree with China’s statement that “Despite our differences, China and the United States share a wide range of mutual interests and there is room for cooperation,” with, for example, his nominee for Secretary of State, Antony Blinken, telling the Senate that “President Trump was right in taking a tougher approach to China” and his pick for Director of National Intelligence, Avril Haines, declaring “China is a challenge to our security, to our prosperity, to our values across a range of issues and I do support an aggressive stance, in a sense, to deal with the challenge that we’re facing.”

These people seem to like being “tough” and “aggressive” and cannot accept that consultation, negotiation and compromise are not signs of weakness. Rather they are a sign of maturity and willingness to come to terms with the new global development. The Dragon has woken, and they would be well advised to engage with it. There is no need for cringing appeasement, but aggressive toughness will lead only to disaster.
Another intelligent article published by the Strategic Culture Foundation. The author, not surprisingly, is not American but Australian...

neverfail
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Re: China and the US

Post by neverfail » Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:12 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:22 pm


Crimea actually split from the Ukraine before voting to rejoin the Russian Federation. As to the Austrian anschluss and the Sudetenland, these are not comparable to what happened in Crimea, since the former was imposed from the outside while the latter was a wholly decision by the Crimean people.
Rejoin? Misleading choice of word Sertorio. The Russian Federation was born out of the wreckage of the USSR only in 1991 whereas the Supreme Soviet had transferred Crimea oblost from Russia (SSR) to Ukraine (SSR) back in 1954. So as I hope you can see you cannot rejoin something you were never part of in the first place. :D

As for Austria: this country may not have held a referendum before the March 12 1938 arrival of German troops (accompanied by Adolf Hitler himself) but it is clear from the enthusiastic way the Austrian public greeted the German troops (and lack of any noticable opposition within Austria) that no referendum was needed. Merging with Germany was something that most Austrians welcomed. Hitler (remember) was an Austrian by birth, not German.

In that regard, the Austrian public in 1938 closely resembled Russo Crimean public in 2014.

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Sertorio
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Re: China and the US

Post by Sertorio » Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:40 pm

neverfail wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:12 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Dec 30, 2020 4:22 pm


Crimea actually split from the Ukraine before voting to rejoin the Russian Federation. As to the Austrian anschluss and the Sudetenland, these are not comparable to what happened in Crimea, since the former was imposed from the outside while the latter was a wholly decision by the Crimean people.
Rejoin? Misleading choice of word Sertorio. The Russian Federation was born out of the wreckage of the USSR only in 1991 whereas the Supreme Soviet had transferred Crimea oblost from Russia (SSR) to Ukraine (SSR) back in 1954. So as I hope you can see you cannot rejoin something you were never part of in the first place. :D

As for Austria: this country may not have held a referendum before the March 12 1938 arrival of German troops (accompanied by Adolf Hitler himself) but it is clear from the enthusiastic way the Austrian public greeted the German troops (and lack of any noticable opposition within Austria) that no referendum was needed. Merging with Germany was something that most Austrians welcomed. Hitler (remember) was an Austrian by birth, not German.

In that regard, the Austrian public in 1938 closely resembled Russo Crimean public in 2014.
Crimea became a part of Russia in 1783 when Russia was Russia, not the Soviet Union. So Crimea rejoined Russia when it decided to split from an independent Ukraine. But you know this very well, so why do you argue as if you didn't? Hoping I am more ignorant than you?... :D

Many Austrians may have wanted to be part of the Great Germany, but certainly not as many as the 96.7% who in Crimea voted for reunification with Russia. How can you say that "the Austrian public in 1938 closely resembled Russo Crimean public in 2014"?... Can a military takeover resemble a democratic referendum? Your hatred for Russia makes you lose all sense of fairness and proportion. And you might want to read a small article on the Austrian "anschluss":
On 9 March 1938, in the face of rioting by the small, but virulent, Austrian Nazi Party and ever-expanding German demands on Austria, Chancellor Kurt Schuschnigg called a referendum (plebiscite) on the issue, to be held on 13 March. Infuriated, on 11 March, Adolf Hitler threatened invasion of Austria, and demanded Chancellor von Schuschnigg's resignation and the appointment of the Nazi Arthur Seyss-Inquart as his replacement. Hitler's plan was for Seyss-Inquart to call immediately for German troops to rush to Austria's aid, restoring order and giving the invasion an air of legitimacy. In the face of this threat, Schuschnigg informed Seyss-Inquart that the plebiscite would be cancelled.

To secure a large majority in the referendum, Schuschnigg dismantled the one-party state. He agreed to legalize the Social Democrats and their trade unions in return for their support in the referendum. He also set the minimum voting age at 24 to exclude younger voters because the Nazi movement was most popular among the young. In contrast, Hitler had lowered the voting age for German elections held under Nazi rule, largely to compensate for the removal of Jews and other ethnic minorities from the German electorate following enactment of the Nuremberg Laws in 1935.

The plan went awry when it became apparent that Hitler would not stand by while Austria declared its independence by public vote. Hitler declared that the referendum would be subject to major fraud and that Germany would never accept it. In addition, the German ministry of propaganda issued press reports that riots had broken out in Austria and that large parts of the Austrian population were calling for German troops to restore order. Schuschnigg immediately responded that reports of riots were false.

Seyss-Inquart and Hitler with Himmler and Heydrich to the right in Vienna, March 1938
Hitler sent an ultimatum to Schuschnigg on 11 March, demanding that he hand over all power to the Austrian Nazis or face an invasion. The ultimatum was set to expire at noon, but was extended by two hours. Without waiting for an answer, Hitler had already signed the order to send troops into Austria at one o'clock. Nevertheless, the German Führer underestimated his opposition.

(...)

According to some Gestapo reports, only a quarter to a third of Austrian voters in Vienna were in favour of the Anschluss. According to Evan Burr Bukey, no more than one-third of Austrians ever fully supported Nazism during the existence of the Third Reich.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anschluss ... _Anschluss

neverfail
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Re: China and the US

Post by neverfail » Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:34 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:40 pm

Crimea became a part of Russia in 1783 when Russia was Russia, not the Soviet Union.
In 1783 Russia was the main part of the Czarist Empire ruled by the legendary Czarina Catherine the Great. The population of Crimea was then overwhealmingly Tatar. Russian settlers were sent in after for the sake of cementing the peninsula to Russia permanently. Even so Crimea's population remained predoninantly Tatar until the mid-19th century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_T ... %20century.

In 1944 the USSR Ministry of Defence had the still numerically large minority of Crimea Tatars deported out to Soviet central Asia out of suspicion that Tatars had collaborated with Nazi Germany while German troops occupied the Crimea peninsula. Some most likely did. Unless you were slavonic Russian or Jewish; when having to choose between enduring the oppressive yoke of Communist Party rule under Stalin's leadership or serving the Nazis; believe it or not serving the Nazis often turned out to be the better deal. Just ask the Lithuanians, Latvians or Estonians. So because of that 1944 mass deportion Crimea by default became overwhealmingly Russian in population.
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Dear Sertorio,
(Comrade!) ;)

I only pointed out that before 2014 Crimea had never been part of the Russian Federation. I never said (or suggested) that it had never previously belonged to Russia. I am sure that you have the nous to make that distinction. :D

Please, let us have no more hair-splitting quibbles on this matter.

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Re: China and the US

Post by neverfail » Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:40 pm

Now, moving back on-topic, away from all that bullshit: :lol:

https://asiatimes.com/2021/01/us-must-s ... w-analyst/

US must set up joint command with Taiwan, now: analyst

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Re: China and the US

Post by Sertorio » Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:24 am

neverfail wrote:
Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:40 pm
Now, moving back on-topic, away from all that bullshit: :lol:

https://asiatimes.com/2021/01/us-must-s ... w-analyst/

US must set up joint command with Taiwan, now: analyst
Interesting. The article makes it clear that the US no longer is in a position to prevent China becoming the dominant power in Asia and the West Pacific. Regretful to some, but a solid and unavoidable reality. So, asking for an effort by the US and its local allies to invert the situation seems a pretty hopeless thing. And the idea of teaming up with Taiwan would be the thing to start China's invasion of the island. The only realistic thing to do is accepting that preeminence of China and start dealing with it in a way which would strengthen China's community of interests with the East and South East Asia countries, as well as with Australia. Once economic interdependence is established, peace would be assured, which is what everybody should want. As to the US, its western frontier is Hawaii, and it should not move any further west. Anyway, soon China will make sure that the US will respect that limit...

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