The Bells of Barcelona toll for Europe

Discussion of current events
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Alexis
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Re: Catalan separatists will fail

Post by Alexis » Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:10 am

Doc wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:08 am
The Spanish government reaction was ham fisted to say the least. I imagine the people of Catalonia are angry enough not to care about the economic ramifications of going their own way, and even fighting to go.
No matter what one thinks of Spanish government's actions, the fact is that people of Catalonia have very mixed opinions. Polls traditionnally found 40 to 50% for independence - the 90% result of Oct 1st vote if it is true would be explained by small participation of 42% as opponents did not want to vote and give legitimacy to an illegal vote.

The % for independence is smaller when the question is "Catalonia's independence outside of the EU". Which is the only practical option, something that many Catalans may have been unaware of, but is becoming clearer. Now, the only difference between independence inside and outside of the EU is economic. Which strongly suggests that a big part of independence supporters are not very deeply convinced: mere economic drawbacks could stop them. And such are coming in spades.

One does not fight when one has maximum 50% of the region's population, including a whole lot whose separatist convictions are quite shallow.

SteveFoerster wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:46 am
That's what the Southern states in the U.S. thought during the Civil Rights era. But the harsher the response, the greater Catalonian resolve will become.
No war will be necessary to keep Catalonia within Spain. Separatists are neither numerous enough, nor above all convinced enough to put their lives on the line for a violent revolution.

If a small number of them were, well Spain has resisted decades to the ETA terrorist nationalist organization in Basque country, which killed more than 800 people. They resisted until they saw the end of it.

The very fact that Spain has demonstrated to be able to face terrorists and defend their country and their Constitution strongly diminishes the risk that a few violent ideologues among separatists would cross the line.

cassowary wrote:
Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:51 am
The Bells of Barcelona toll for Europe... by Spengler (Remember him?)
They (the Catalans) are tired of subsidizing the backward money-sinks of Spain’s southern provinces ; they are hard-working and productive, and want to separate from the economically irreparable parts of Spain (the bums).
David Goldman ("Spengler") generally understands rather poorly Europeans. In this case, his contempt for Spaniards is totally unwarranted.

Here is King Felipe VI's solemn message on Tuesday 3rd, including English subtitles:



In constitutional monarchies such as Spain, the king is basically the solemn mouthpiece of the government. No power of his own, but a symbolic capacity to stress the most important messages. This is Felipe VI's first such pronouncement since his coronation in 2014.

Spain and its Constitution will be defended.

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Alexis
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Peaceful separatists

Post by Alexis » Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:43 am

Sometimes, being far from something helps feeling sympathetic to it.

Check these small testimonies of things happening "on the field" in Catalonia, behind the facade of unanimity for independence.

Peaceful

(Use automated translation from your navigator, it works well enough)

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cassowary
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Re: Catalan separatists will fail

Post by cassowary » Fri Oct 06, 2017 7:41 am

Alexis wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:10 am

Here is King Felipe VI's solemn message on Tuesday 3rd, including English subtitles:



In constitutional monarchies such as Spain, the king is basically the solemn mouthpiece of the government. No power of his own, but a symbolic capacity to stress the most important messages. This is Felipe VI's first such pronouncement since his coronation in 2014.

Spain and its Constitution will be defended.
The King's speech was long on generalities and short of specifics. He did not say much of importance. There is no longer a death penalty in Spain or anywhere in the EU. The quickest way to end this is to hang a few Independence leaders.

Jim the Moron
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Re: The Bells of Barcelona toll for Europe

Post by Jim the Moron » Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:53 am


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Sertorio
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Re: The Bells of Barcelona toll for Europe

Post by Sertorio » Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:45 am

Jim the Moron wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:53 am
Will it come to this?

http://img03.deviantart.net/d6e8/i/2012 ... 4v74h9.jpg
Plenty of Spaniards willing to try it... And plenty of dumb Europeans ready to let them try... Will a civil war in Catalonia be of advantage to anyone in Spain or in Europe? If not, then better put the leash on the Franco pup, Rajoy...

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Alexis
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Re: The Bells of Barcelona toll for Europe

Post by Alexis » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:44 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:53 am
Will it come to this?

http://img03.deviantart.net/d6e8/i/2012 ... 4v74h9.jpg
Definitely not.

This is a modified version of Goya's Tres de Mayo, representing the execution of Spanish insurgents by French soldiers during the occupation of Spain in the time of Napoleon.

Nobody is occupying anybody, no French nor any other foreign soldiers will execute anybody in Spain anytime soon.

Napoleon is nowhere to be seen.

Jim the Moron
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Re: The Bells of Barcelona toll for Europe

Post by Jim the Moron » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:57 pm

Alexis wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:44 pm
Jim the Moron wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:53 am
Will it come to this?

http://img03.deviantart.net/d6e8/i/2012 ... 4v74h9.jpg
Definitely not.

This is a modified version of Goya's Tres de Mayo, representing the execution of Spanish insurgents by French soldiers during the occupation of Spain in the time of Napoleon.

Nobody is occupying anybody, no French nor any other foreign soldiers will execute anybody in Spain anytime soon.

Napoleon is nowhere to be seen.
Well, of course. Cannot art be representative of more than what is depicted?

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dagbay
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Re: The Bells of Barcelona toll for Europe

Post by dagbay » Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:05 pm

Catalans have allied with the growing Muslim community of that region. The Muslims are a substantial group that makes up up to 40% of the population of major cities. The Muslims get freedom to have their laws while the catalonia get the votes for separation. BUT the Muslims are in the game to restore Spain to Muslim rule (Andalus was the seat of the Califate) that predated their expulsion by Fernandez II and Isabela in 1492 and later the re-conquest period where the remaining muslims were forced to convert to Christianity (1502) creating the Mooriscus people who were clensed out of Spain about 100 years hence.
ISIS leader called it a priority to return Spain Andalusia to its Muslim roots.
If Catalans get further into a clash with Spain look for the Muslims of Andalusia which are increasing in numbers by the day to claim their "homeland". Remember that any area once ruled by Islam remains Islamic land forever according to Sharia.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

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cassowary
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Re: The Bells of Barcelona toll for Europe

Post by cassowary » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:49 am

dagbay wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:05 pm
Catalans have allied with the growing Muslim community of that region. The Muslims are a substantial group that makes up up to 40% of the population of major cities. The Muslims get freedom to have their laws while the catalonia get the votes for separation. BUT the Muslims are in the game to restore Spain to Muslim rule (Andalus was the seat of the Califate) that predated their expulsion by Fernandez II and Isabela in 1492 and later the re-conquest period where the remaining muslims were forced to convert to Christianity (1502) creating the Mooriscus people who were clensed out of Spain about 100 years hence.
ISIS leader called it a priority to return Spain Andalusia to its Muslim roots.
If Catalans get further into a clash with Spain look for the Muslims of Andalusia which are increasing in numbers by the day to claim their "homeland". Remember that any area once ruled by Islam remains Islamic land forever according to Sharia.
VEry True. Muslims want to reconquer Spain. The Catalans must stay united with fellow Christians and not ally themselves with the Muslims.

Fernando and Isabela are my favorite Spanish monarchs.

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dagbay
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Re: The Bells of Barcelona toll for Europe

Post by dagbay » Sat Oct 07, 2017 10:03 am

cassowary wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:49 am
dagbay wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:05 pm
Catalans have allied with the growing Muslim community of that region. The Muslims are a substantial group that makes up up to 40% of the population of major cities. The Muslims get freedom to have their laws while the catalonia get the votes for separation. BUT the Muslims are in the game to restore Spain to Muslim rule (Andalus was the seat of the Califate) that predated their expulsion by Fernandez II and Isabela in 1492 and later the re-conquest period where the remaining muslims were forced to convert to Christianity (1502) creating the Mooriscus people who were clensed out of Spain about 100 years hence.
ISIS leader called it a priority to return Spain Andalusia to its Muslim roots.
If Catalans get further into a clash with Spain look for the Muslims of Andalusia which are increasing in numbers by the day to claim their "homeland". Remember that any area once ruled by Islam remains Islamic land forever according to Sharia.
VEry True. Muslims want to reconquer Spain. The Catalans must stay united with fellow Christians and not ally themselves with the Muslims.

Fernando and Isabela are my favorite Spanish monarchs.
From recorded history Isabela was a bit harsh and vindictive with the Muslims... after their failed rebellion her position became the basis for their expulsion.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

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