Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

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cassowary
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Re: Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

Post by cassowary » Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:44 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:13 pm
Ellen wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:52 am
The Arabs of Palestine owned nothing. Most were landless peasants working for Arab or Turkish landowners. The elites fled in the 1948 war, leaving behind illiterate landless peasants, mainly. They were occupants - for sure - as in occupiers.
You are using the word "owned" in the technical, legalistic sense. They still lived there for the better part of 1,000 years while all but a small handfull of the world's Jewry were abscent abroad in the dispersion.
The Arabs came to the Land of Israel (renamed Palestine, by the Romans) only in the 7th century with the Islamic conquest. They are no more indigenous than the British or the Turks or the Crusaders. The fact that they would like to begin history in the 7th century, when the Islamic conquests were carried out, is their self-interested choice. Recorded history begins when it actually begins, not when the Arabs want it to begin.
Yes they are more indigenous than these others. There was a majority gentile population living in Palestine from at least 500AD onward. These gentiles would have been initally Orthodox Christians - bearing in mind that the region was at the time part of the Byzantine Empire. In the centuries after the Arab conquest conversions from Orthodox Christianity to Islam resulted in Muslim majority in the aftermath of the Crusades. So the roots of the gentile majority population of Palestine is both ancient and contiguous even though not consistently Islamic in creed and Arabic in culture.
Israel was created and maintained as an identifiable and independent state only starting with King David and under Jewish rule. Under all other rulers (Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Crusaders, Muslim rulers, Turks, and British) it was merely a province of a larger empire. It was a backwater of no significance. What made it significant was its connection to Judaism, and therefore subsequently to Christianity. The Arab claim to Israel therefore, is the claim of a conqueror.
You are distorting the historical record again for the sake of scoring ethnocentric partisan points. Yes, King David did unify a gaggle of formerly autonomous Hebrew tribes into a unitary kingdom but that early kingdom broke up into two seperate soverignties, the northern kingdom of Israel (home to ten of the twelve Hebrew tribes) and the kingdom of Judea, (home to only two). Israel drifted off into various forms of heresy and apostasy and was extinguished by the arrival of the Assyrian conquerer - which led them off into servile captivity abroad from which they never returned. To make sure that they could never return the Assyrians (they were not stupid :) ) even repopulated the vacated lands and townships with a mix gentile settlers drawn from Assyria's subject peoples. Less than a century later it was the turn of Judea (from whence we derive the name "Jew") to suffer the same fate. The Chaldian empire, also based in Mesopotamia, led the Jews off to their legendary 80 years of Babalonian captivity on the banks of the Tigrus. At this historical point the patrimony of David and Solomon was arguably rendered extinguished, null and void.

Just to point out that even the occupancy of the holy land by the chosen people was not in the least contiguous even in ancient times. Anyone who therefore attempts to make out a case in favour of Jewish primacy as owners of this country on the basis that "we had an ancient kingdom there" (ignoring the fact that this only came about via a Hebrew invasion, conquest and dispossion - i.e. a violent theft - at cost to the previous owners, the Canaanites) is guilty of promoting a hoax.

I would compare the long abscence of the Jews in the (approx. 6th century to early/mid 20th century) dispersion to a magnified version of the that earlier period after the extinction of ancient Israel and Judea when the chosen people had been replaced as owners and occupants by a gentile population.

The attempt to justify the existence of modern Israel with the argument "we once had a soverign kingdom at the time of David and Solomon" is therefore absurd. So what else?

(By the way Ellen: I take note of and exception to that tone of contemptuous scorn refloected in your references to Arabs generally and Palestinian Arabs in particular. Are you not aware that Jewish effontery is offensive to all gentiles and has no doubt provoked more than one anti-semetic riot in countries overseas where Jews have historically sought sanctuary over the centuries?)
You overlooked the return of the Jews at the time of Persian King, Cyrus the Great. Then after the Persians were defeated by Alexander the Great, the Greeks ruled the area till the revolt against the Seleucids that led to the Jewish Kingdom of the Maccabees.

It was not just King David.

There was a Jewish kingdom, albeit a vassal state of Romans ruled by Herod’s descendants, till the Romans destroyed it following a revolt against Rome.

The Jews were dispersed till 1947.

Another comment. I suppose the Canaanites might have a better claim than the Jews, if you can find them. Hahaha.
The Imp :D

Ellen
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Re: Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

Post by Ellen » Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:51 pm

I have scorn for people who obliterate the Jewish connection to the Land of Israel in order to claim that they have some right to a piece of land that they conquered as part of a religious, imperial conquest millennia after it was settled and named and put into the history book as an independent state with a particular identity. The scorn and contempt has almost always run in the other direction overwhelmingly, including by allies and "friends" of the Palestinians and Arabs. this group prominently features Europeans who were taught over a long period the "culture of contempt". This is not a Jewish invention.

The gentile population of the Land of Israel at the time of the Arab conquest was not Arab. They were mostly Christians and some Jews. But they were not, obviously, Arabs or Muslims. The conquerors forced their religion and culture onto the local people as a right of conquest. To parade around this coerced culture as an "indigenous" culture requires the audience to be absolutely ill-informed about history. Many people are. The Arabs were not indigenous to any place they conquered except the Arabian peninsula.

Jim the Moron
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Re: Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

Post by Jim the Moron » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:20 am

Ellen wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:51 pm
I have scorn for people who obliterate the Jewish connection to the Land of Israel in order to claim that they have some right to a piece of land that they conquered as part of a religious, imperial conquest millennia after it was settled and named and put into the history book as an independent state with a particular identity. The scorn and contempt has almost always run in the other direction overwhelmingly, including by allies and "friends" of the Palestinians and Arabs. this group prominently features Europeans who were taught over a long period the "culture of contempt". This is not a Jewish invention.

The gentile population of the Land of Israel at the time of the Arab conquest was not Arab. They were mostly Christians and some Jews. But they were not, obviously, Arabs or Muslims. The conquerors forced their religion and culture onto the local people as a right of conquest. To parade around this coerced culture as an "indigenous" culture requires the audience to be absolutely ill-informed about history. Many people are. The Arabs were not indigenous to any place they conquered except the Arabian peninsula.

Maybe not so much "ill-informed about history" as "ill-intended."

Ellen
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Re: Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

Post by Ellen » Mon Sep 14, 2020 12:41 am

[/quote]


Maybe not so much "ill-informed about history" as "ill-intended."
[/quote]

Thank you for that accurate correction.

neverfail
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Re: Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

Post by neverfail » Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:17 am

cassowary wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:44 pm

You overlooked the return of the Jews at the time of Persian King, Cyrus the Great. Then after the Persians were defeated by Alexander the Great, the Greeks ruled the area till the revolt against the Seleucids that led to the Jewish Kingdom of the Maccabees.

It was not just King David.

There was a Jewish kingdom, albeit a vassal state of Romans ruled by Herod’s descendants, till the Romans destroyed it following a revolt against Rome.

The Jews were dispersed till 1947.

Another comment. I suppose the Canaanites might have a better claim than the Jews, if you can find them. Hahaha.
No Cass, I did not overlook any of these - just "keeping my powder dry" for another time - like now.

Yes, Cyrus the Great did, according to Biblical testimony, permit the Jews to return from Babylonian captivity to rebvuild Jerusalem - bearing in mind that the country they were returning to was JUDEA, not Israel. The central and northern regions of Israel, Samaria and Galilee, were lost permanently almost 200 years earlier when the Assyrians conquered the Hebrew kingdom of Israel (while apparently leaving Judah alone) and led its inhabitants off into permanent captivity - replacing them in their country with foreign settlers. Even by the time of Christ centuries later Galilee's majority population still as a legacy apparently comprised Alhamric speaking gentiles while the Jewish presence there comprised mainly settlements located on infertile hilltop land not wanted by the local gentiles. Christ's home town of Nazarith was apparently one such Jewish hilltop settlement originally seeded off Judea.

That revived Kingdom of Judah, whose most celebrated figure was Queen Esther, would have been under Persian suzerainty, not soverign independent

Which together makes the Zionist claim that the whole terrestial space between the Jordan River and adjacent Meditteranean coastline is rightfully Jewish look outrageously absurd.
....................................................................................................................

The Maccabean state (Judea again, not Israel) led a turbulent, flickering existence inbetween two neighbouring Greek Kingdoms (Syria and Ptolomic Egypt): both greater powers than itself and both when not taking turns to invade Judea were manipulating its factions into civil war. Not much of a national soverignty to feel proud of there :( . Finally the Romans intervened to put a stip to it - by pushing the half-Jewish/half Greek princling, King Herod the Great on the Jewish throne as quisling ruler. The Romans for their own convenience also incorporated the Kingdom of Judah into the much larger province of Syria with its seat of government in Syria.
....................................................................................................................

The point is, Cassowary, that in ancient times following the fall of the kingdom founded by Saul; consolidated by the shepherd king david then ruled by King Solomon (which was a HEBREW, not a Jewish, kingdom): the Jewish state enjoyed only fleetingly brief periods of real soverignty and for the most part soverignty was vested in other peoples' empires that it was incorporated into. There were also long periods when the Jews were either abscent from this country or else reduced demographically to small minorities in the midst of overall gentile majority populations.

Therefore, the Zionist claim that this country rightfully belongs to the Jews to the exclusion of all gentiles - above all the Palestinians - is nothing but outrageous, self-serving chutzpah.

neverfail
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Re: Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

Post by neverfail » Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:33 am

Ellen wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:51 pm
I have scorn for people who obliterate the Jewish connection to the Land of Israel in order to claim that they have some right to a piece of land that they conquered as part of a religious, imperial conquest millennia after it was settled and named and put into the history book as an independent state with a particular identity. The scorn and contempt has almost always run in the other direction overwhelmingly, including by allies and "friends" of the Palestinians and Arabs. this group prominently features Europeans who were taught over a long period the "culture of contempt". This is not a Jewish invention.

The gentile population of the Land of Israel at the time of the Arab conquest was not Arab. They were mostly Christians and some Jews. But they were not, obviously, Arabs or Muslims. The conquerors forced their religion and culture onto the local people as a right of conquest. To parade around this coerced culture as an "indigenous" culture requires the audience to be absolutely ill-informed about history. Many people are. The Arabs were not indigenous to any place they conquered except the Arabian peninsula.
Cool down, Ellen. The Jews have a connection to the land of Israel just as you claim but so do others. Even we Christians have our own holy places there but make no claim that the country belongs to us. Arabic culture reminds me somewhat of Hispanic culture in central and South America or Anglo culture in widely spaced apart corners of the world - one that spread way beyond the bounds of the country it originated from. Just because the Palestinian Arabs who for centuries before being pushed aside by Zionist Jewish immigrant settlers formed the majority population are party to a civilization that they did not invent locally does not morally exclude them from a rightful, compensationary stake in the country they lost.

Jim the Moron
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Re: Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

Post by Jim the Moron » Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:20 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:33 am
Ellen wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 9:51 pm
I have scorn for people who obliterate the Jewish connection to the Land of Israel in order to claim that they have some right to a piece of land that they conquered as part of a religious, imperial conquest millennia after it was settled and named and put into the history book as an independent state with a particular identity. The scorn and contempt has almost always run in the other direction overwhelmingly, including by allies and "friends" of the Palestinians and Arabs. this group prominently features Europeans who were taught over a long period the "culture of contempt". This is not a Jewish invention.

The gentile population of the Land of Israel at the time of the Arab conquest was not Arab. They were mostly Christians and some Jews. But they were not, obviously, Arabs or Muslims. The conquerors forced their religion and culture onto the local people as a right of conquest. To parade around this coerced culture as an "indigenous" culture requires the audience to be absolutely ill-informed about history. Many people are. The Arabs were not indigenous to any place they conquered except the Arabian peninsula.
Cool down, Ellen. The Jews have a connection to the land of Israel just as you claim but so do others. Even we Christians have our own holy places there but make no claim that the country belongs to us. Arabic culture reminds me somewhat of Hispanic culture in central and South America or Anglo culture in widely spaced apart corners of the world - one that spread way beyond the bounds of the country it originated from. Just because the Palestinian Arabs who for centuries before being pushed aside by Zionist Jewish immigrant settlers formed the majority population are party to a civilization that they did not invent locally does not morally exclude them from a rightful, compensationary stake in the country they lost.

Precisely what "country" is it that Arabs in Palestine are alleged to have lost?

Ellen
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Re: Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

Post by Ellen » Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:35 am

Precisely what "country" is it that Arabs in Palestine are alleged to have lost?
[/quote]

Yes, that is the most pertinent question, Jim, once again.

Thanks for focusing us all on one of the most false claims by the Palestinians. That is, that they had a "country" under their rule that was "lost." There was never any Palestinian Arab country ever in history. The Palestine Mandate was created and ruled by Britain. Prior to that, Palestine was a small part of an Ottoman province called Greater Syria. Please note that Syria was never a "country" either until it was artificially declared as such by the departing French. It was a province in the Turkish Empire. Increasingly, it looks like it is going back to that condition.

And does anyone for a second imagine that Syria under Turkish rule, even by the odious Erdogan, will be a better governed, less murderous place with fewer refugees streaming out to neighboring continents? By the standards of humane governance, something the Europeans always claim to support, Erdogan has a better claim to rule Syria than then Assad crime family. Of course, ditto for Israel in its sphere of influence.

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Sertorio
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Re: Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

Post by Sertorio » Mon Sep 14, 2020 7:30 am

Ellen wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:35 am
Precisely what "country" is it that Arabs in Palestine are alleged to have lost?

Yes, that is the most pertinent question, Jim, once again.

Thanks for focusing us all on one of the most false claims by the Palestinians. That is, that they had a "country" under their rule that was "lost." There was never any Palestinian Arab country ever in history. The Palestine Mandate was created and ruled by Britain. Prior to that, Palestine was a small part of an Ottoman province called Greater Syria. Please note that Syria was never a "country" either until it was artificially declared as such by the departing French. It was a province in the Turkish Empire. Increasingly, it looks like it is going back to that condition.

And does anyone for a second imagine that Syria under Turkish rule, even by the odious Erdogan, will be a better governed, less murderous place with fewer refugees streaming out to neighboring continents? By the standards of humane governance, something the Europeans always claim to support, Erdogan has a better claim to rule Syria than then Assad crime family. Of course, ditto for Israel in its sphere of influence.
I don't know how long it is going to take, but Israelis will regret thinking like that. A bit tolerance and flexibility now could spare a lot of suffering to a lot of people. But Israelis seem to think they will be spared the consequences of their actions. I'm afraid they are very, very wrong.

neverfail
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Re: and speaking of 'false claims....'

Post by neverfail » Mon Sep 14, 2020 4:07 pm

Ellen wrote:
Mon Sep 14, 2020 6:35 am

Thanks for focusing us all on one of the most false claims by the Palestinians. That is, that they had a "country" under their rule that was "lost." There was never any Palestinian Arab country ever in history. The Palestine Mandate was created and ruled by Britain. Prior to that, Palestine was a small part of an Ottoman province called Greater Syria. Please note that Syria was never a "country" either until it was artificially declared as such by the departing French. It was a province in the Turkish Empire. Increasingly, it looks like it is going back to that condition.
That is a signature Zionist canard designed to mislead the casual reader - as I am sure you well know Ellen. What you really mean is that the Palestinians never had a STATE of their own - not the same - fate having intervened to reduce them for centuries to the role of a subject people ruled by foreign powers. But so what! The point is that they and their forebears still lived their lives there as majority population over centuries during which the Jews were absent in the diaspora mainly in distant lands abroad.

Own up Ellen - the Jewish state rests on land stolen right from under this people's feet.

Were I Palestinian myself I would definitely live with a sense of having been robbed.

Try to see things their way - even if it goes against your grain as Zionist advocate.

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