Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

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Ellen
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Re: Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

Post by Ellen » Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:32 am

Bashar al-Assad is no secular regime, for goodness sake. He runs a sectarian slaughterhouse. He is no better than the jihadis except he is more organized and runs a successful centralized slaughterhouse rather than lots of little ones scattered around. And he has the backing of powerful regimes who support his mass-murder (mainly Russia). His Alawite criminal regime is not the future of anything.

Israel will never give back the Golan Heights to anyone. It was annexed in 1981 and no one who lives there - Jews or Druze - wants to live in Syria. It is part of Sovereign Israel forever. Syria will disintegrate into small ministates, and the Alawites will be lucky to survive at all, with or without Assad.

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Sertorio
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Re: Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

Post by Sertorio » Sun Sep 13, 2020 3:19 am

Ellen wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:32 am
Bashar al-Assad is no secular regime, for goodness sake. He runs a sectarian slaughterhouse. He is no better than the jihadis except he is more organized and runs a successful centralized slaughterhouse rather than lots of little ones scattered around. And he has the backing of powerful regimes who support his mass-murder (mainly Russia). His Alawite criminal regime is not the future of anything.

Israel will never give back the Golan Heights to anyone. It was annexed in 1981 and no one who lives there - Jews or Druze - wants to live in Syria. It is part of Sovereign Israel forever. Syria will disintegrate into small ministates, and the Alawites will be lucky to survive at all, with or without Assad.
If that's the way Israelis think, then forget any idea of peace in the ME. But please stop blaming the Arabs...

neverfail
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Re: Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

Post by neverfail » Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:25 am

Ellen wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:16 pm
Neverfail,

You are very much behind the times. There are huge changes going on in the Middle East, especially among the younger generation. And especially in Iran. A poll recently taken in Iran shows that only 40% of Iranians still view themselves as Muslims! And this is after 41 years of an Islamic Republic that prevents all other forms of culture from being disseminated!

Most of the remaining 60% view themselves as secular, or Zoroastrian (a dead religion but one that is associated with Persian nationalism), or even Christianity. These trends are even more true among the younger population. Young Iranians are pro-Israel partly because they are against their regime. It is not just that they think they are a pain the butt. They hate them. They view them as Arab conquerors bringing in a non-Iranian form of culture to impose upon them.

A recent Israeli TV series called "Teheran" was very watched inside Iran, in spite of being a Mossad thriller. You will be surprised how quickly Iran and Israel will become allies, after the current regime is gone. There isn't much Iranian national loyalty to this regime; it is viewed as anti-Iranian in fact. Pan-Islamism means it is anti-nationalistic, and the Iranian people are nationalists above all else, and especially above Islamism today.
You may be right. I will let this one "pass on to the catcher".
With the Arabs, I tend to agree with you. They will never reconcile themselves to Israel as the homeland of the Jewish people, because this means Islam has been defeated. They believe that a land conquered by Islam must never be relinquished, even to its rightful owners. But sorry to say, the Arabs and their fantasies based on past glories have run their course. They are now nothing more than roadkill in the Mideast, for outside or regional powers to carve up into pieces. The Turks are carving their slices, the Iranians theirs, the Russians theirs, and Israel is only reclaiming what is rightfully its own homeland. What the Arabs really think is not very interesting to anyone. The Arab regimes are now fighting for their own survival, and they will make the deals they need to make - with acquiescence from their own populations - or their civilization will die. Very simple equation.
Just because there are multiple Old Testament Biblical references to God having granted the land of Canaan to Abrahan and his descendents; how does this bestow on modern Jewry a pre-emptive entitlement to this country that overrules the claims of its earlier majority occupants and owners - in our day commonly referred to as Palestrinian Arabs? :?: :?: :?:

The Arabs may well have have their "fantasies based on past glories" as you claim but it seems to me that, likewise, Jews must have their own pecular set of those as well. Were it not for that there would never have been a Zionist movement - which seems to be just as spiritually irredentist as the Muslim perception that a land conquered by Islam must never be relinquished. Perceptionally, one seems as bad as the other.

Ellen
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Re: Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

Post by Ellen » Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:52 am

The Arabs of Palestine owned nothing. Most were landless peasants working for Arab or Turkish landowners. The elites fled in the 1948 war, leaving behind illiterate landless peasants, mainly. They were occupants - for sure - as in occupiers.

The Arabs came to the Land of Israel (renamed Palestine, by the Romans) only in the 7th century with the Islamic conquest. They are no more indigenous than the British or the Turks or the Crusaders. The fact that they would like to begin history in the 7th century, when the Islamic conquests were carried out, is their self-interested choice. Recorded history begins when it actually begins, not when the Arabs want it to begin.

Israel was created and maintained as an identifiable and independent state only starting with King David and under Jewish rule. Under all other rulers (Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Crusaders, Muslim rulers, Turks, and British) it was merely a province of a larger empire. It was a backwater of no significance. What made it significant was its connection to Judaism, and therefore subsequently to Christianity. The Arab claim to Israel therefore, is the claim of a conqueror.

It you conquer something and can keep it, good for you. But, if you conquer territory from someone, and they come back later, even much later, to conquer it back from you, that's how the cookie crumbles. Cry me a river. But, you won't get back what you took in the first place by conquest.

As for there never being peace in the MidEast, because Israel won't give back the Golan Heights. That's plain silly. There won't be peace among the Arabs period. There has never been peace among the Arabs. Why should there be peace now, when there never was before? Who is even aiming for peace, actually? That is a fantasy of Western liberals. Israel isn't holding its breath waiting for peace. We are surviving and thriving. That's the name of the game. Survival and thriving and as much prosperity as it is possible to produce. Peace is the interregnum between wars. Nothing more than that.

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Sertorio
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Re: Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

Post by Sertorio » Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:32 am

Ellen wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:52 am
Who is even aiming for peace, actually? That is a fantasy of Western liberals. Israel isn't holding its breath waiting for peace. We are surviving and thriving. That's the name of the game. Survival and thriving and as much prosperity as it is possible to produce. Peace is the interregnum between wars. Nothing more than that.
I'm sorry for people who think like that. Are you willing to pay the price if something ever goes wrong?...

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cassowary
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Re: Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

Post by cassowary » Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:04 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:32 am
Ellen wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:52 am
Who is even aiming for peace, actually? That is a fantasy of Western liberals. Israel isn't holding its breath waiting for peace. We are surviving and thriving. That's the name of the game. Survival and thriving and as much prosperity as it is possible to produce. Peace is the interregnum between wars. Nothing more than that.
I'm sorry for people who think like that. Are you willing to pay the price if something ever goes wrong?...
Ellen is just being realistic, Sertorio. The Muslims in the ME don't want peace with Israel. They want conquest. Its in their religion. Islam is the last warrior religion.
The Imp :D

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Sertorio
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Re: Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

Post by Sertorio » Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:45 am

cassowary wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:04 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:32 am
Ellen wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:52 am
Who is even aiming for peace, actually? That is a fantasy of Western liberals. Israel isn't holding its breath waiting for peace. We are surviving and thriving. That's the name of the game. Survival and thriving and as much prosperity as it is possible to produce. Peace is the interregnum between wars. Nothing more than that.
I'm sorry for people who think like that. Are you willing to pay the price if something ever goes wrong?...
Ellen is just being realistic, Sertorio. The Muslims in the ME don't want peace with Israel. They want conquest. Its in their religion. Islam is the last warrior religion.
It's Israel which doesn't want peace with the Arabs, except on its own terms. One has to be a bit simple minded to think that that is the way to peace. About the last warrior religion, I thought Calvinism was it...

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dagbay
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Re: Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

Post by dagbay » Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:40 pm

;)
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:45 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 7:04 am
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:32 am
Ellen wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:52 am
Who is even aiming for peace, actually? That is a fantasy of Western liberals. Israel isn't holding its breath waiting for peace. We are surviving and thriving. That's the name of the game. Survival and thriving and as much prosperity as it is possible to produce. Peace is the interregnum between wars. Nothing more than that.
I'm sorry for people who think like that. Are you willing to pay the price if something ever goes wrong?...
Ellen is just being realistic, Sertorio. The Muslims in the ME don't want peace with Israel. They want conquest. Its in their religion. Islam is the last warrior religion.
It's Israel which doesn't want peace with the Arabs, except on its own terms. One has to be a bit simple minded to think that that is the way to peace. About the last warrior religion, I thought Calvinism was it...
Sertorio, jJews were trained by the best of the wiked for thosands of years both in the Arab countries, in Europe and Russia to relay on themselves and only on themselves. There are no foreign troops defending Israel as for example in many other countries (Germany, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Syria to name just a few ). In the late 1880's Jews realized finally that they must relay on on themselves. It took 70 more years for the remaining HALF of the Jewish people to stake a claim in the land of their ancestors and build a powerhouse like no other. As long as that spirit lives on the only peace with the Arabs that will happen and may last is peace between common interest peoples. While Israelis welcome peace they accept that it is a peace of convenience not a peace between two people who are committed to civilized non-aggression and therefore you are correct Israel will not make peace on other's terms. It will always put survival before peace accords that will endanger it's existence. It is the lesson learned front the utimely deaths of thousands of Israelis as a direct result of the Oslo accords. No one in Israel except maybe the late Simon Peres belives that Muslim expansionist religion will change overnight.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

neverfail
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Re: Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

Post by neverfail » Sun Sep 13, 2020 5:13 pm

Ellen wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 4:52 am
The Arabs of Palestine owned nothing. Most were landless peasants working for Arab or Turkish landowners. The elites fled in the 1948 war, leaving behind illiterate landless peasants, mainly. They were occupants - for sure - as in occupiers.
You are using the word "owned" in the technical, legalistic sense. They still lived there for the better part of 1,000 years while all but a small handfull of the world's Jewry were abscent abroad in the dispersion.
The Arabs came to the Land of Israel (renamed Palestine, by the Romans) only in the 7th century with the Islamic conquest. They are no more indigenous than the British or the Turks or the Crusaders. The fact that they would like to begin history in the 7th century, when the Islamic conquests were carried out, is their self-interested choice. Recorded history begins when it actually begins, not when the Arabs want it to begin.
Yes they are more indigenous than these others. There was a majority gentile population living in Palestine from at least 500AD onward. These gentiles would have been initally Orthodox Christians - bearing in mind that the region was at the time part of the Byzantine Empire. In the centuries after the Arab conquest conversions from Orthodox Christianity to Islam resulted in Muslim majority in the aftermath of the Crusades. So the roots of the gentile majority population of Palestine is both ancient and contiguous even though not consistently Islamic in creed and Arabic in culture.
Israel was created and maintained as an identifiable and independent state only starting with King David and under Jewish rule. Under all other rulers (Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Crusaders, Muslim rulers, Turks, and British) it was merely a province of a larger empire. It was a backwater of no significance. What made it significant was its connection to Judaism, and therefore subsequently to Christianity. The Arab claim to Israel therefore, is the claim of a conqueror.
You are distorting the historical record again for the sake of scoring ethnocentric partisan points. Yes, King David did unify a gaggle of formerly autonomous Hebrew tribes into a unitary kingdom but that early kingdom broke up into two seperate soverignties, the northern kingdom of Israel (home to ten of the twelve Hebrew tribes) and the kingdom of Judea, (home to only two). Israel drifted off into various forms of heresy and apostasy and was extinguished by the arrival of the Assyrian conquerer - which led them off into servile captivity abroad from which they never returned. To make sure that they could never return the Assyrians (they were not stupid :) ) even repopulated the vacated lands and townships with a mix gentile settlers drawn from Assyria's subject peoples. Less than a century later it was the turn of Judea (from whence we derive the name "Jew") to suffer the same fate. The Chaldian empire, also based in Mesopotamia, led the Jews off to their legendary 80 years of Babalonian captivity on the banks of the Tigrus. At this historical point the patrimony of David and Solomon was arguably rendered extinguished, null and void.

Just to point out that even the occupancy of the holy land by the chosen people was not in the least contiguous even in ancient times. Anyone who therefore attempts to make out a case in favour of Jewish primacy as owners of this country on the basis that "we had an ancient kingdom there" (ignoring the fact that this only came about via a Hebrew invasion, conquest and dispossion - i.e. a violent theft - at cost to the previous owners, the Canaanites) is guilty of promoting a hoax.

I would compare the long abscence of the Jews in the (approx. 6th century to early/mid 20th century) dispersion to a magnified version of the that earlier period after the extinction of ancient Israel and Judea when the chosen people had been replaced as owners and occupants by a gentile population.

The attempt to justify the existence of modern Israel with the argument "we once had a soverign kingdom at the time of David and Solomon" is therefore absurd. So what else?

(By the way Ellen: I take note of and exception to that tone of contemptuous scorn refloected in your references to Arabs generally and Palestinian Arabs in particular. Are you not aware that Jewish effontery is offensive to all gentiles and has no doubt provoked more than one anti-semetic riot in countries overseas where Jews have historically sought sanctuary over the centuries?)

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cassowary
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Re: Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

Post by cassowary » Sun Sep 13, 2020 6:39 pm

Ellen wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 1:32 am
Bashar al-Assad is no secular regime, for goodness sake. He runs a sectarian slaughterhouse. He is no better than the jihadis except he is more organized and runs a successful centralized slaughterhouse rather than lots of little ones scattered around. And he has the backing of powerful regimes who support his mass-murder (mainly Russia). His Alawite criminal regime is not the future of anything.

Israel will never give back the Golan Heights to anyone. It was annexed in 1981 and no one who lives there - Jews or Druze - wants to live in Syria. It is part of Sovereign Israel forever. Syria will disintegrate into small ministates, and the Alawites will be lucky to survive at all, with or without Assad.
Also Donaldo Trumpo Magnus recognises the Golan as Israeli territory. After all, Turkey and others have taken chunks of Syria. Why not Israel?
The Imp :D

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