Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

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Doc
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Re: Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

Post by Doc » Fri Sep 11, 2020 8:08 am

Ellen wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 11:55 pm

Yes, well that is of course, a major point. The Nobel Peace Prize has become such a joke, that whatever one thinks of Donald Trump, there is certainly a good argument that he deserves it. Even, as a joke!

Actually, though, it isn't a joke. The UAE-Israel agreement is not really about peace, since the two countries have not really been at war. UAE, as with other Arab oil states, used its wealth to pay other poor Arab countries to fight against Israel and use their populations as cannon fodder. This was always the deal. The poor Arabs plus Palestinians fight and lose wars, while the Gulfies live their fancy life styles and pay the other ones to redeem Arab honor, by........losing. Oops.

All that losing finally made the whole arrangement seem idiotic from the Arab honor point of view, and even from the Palestinian point of view. The more wars they instigate and fight, the more territory they lose.

The UAE is now about business and being part of the modern tolerant world. They alone of all the Arab states are not a failing state, and have the chance to really become a successful modern state with tolerance and a good international reputation. The way to accomplish this is through the good graces of Trump and by hooking up with the dynamic Israeli economy. Without US military support, the UAE would be destroyed by the Iranians very quickly.

Ironically, Israelis are not even paying attention much to this issue, which is Netanyahu's crowning achievement. The out-of-control Corona situation is more urgent. Bibi is losing popularity by the minute, and soon Naftali Bennett may be Prime Minister, and then the Palestinians are going to rue the days when they said no, no, no..... Bennett will do everything that Bibi said he would do, but didn't have the guts to do.
Here is the reason that Trump deserves the Nobel Peace prize even if it does not deserve Trump.

The original idea for invading Iraq the second time was to remove the buffer between Iran and the gulf states (IE Saddam) and force the gulf states and Israel to make common cause to hold back their common enemy Iran.

The situation has been one of the most ridiculous nature since at least 1979, if not 1947. The Arab nations can not fight off Iran alone and will eventually lose to the Iranians without massive US help. Plus eventually their oil will run out.

The reason this has not happened previously is that the Gulf states previously had a huge weapon against the US which was the threat of an oil embargo against the US Plus the members of the US military industrial complex and the DC establishment has massive investments in the gulf states as individuals as well as companies.

Trump has turn on the spigot of hydraulic fracturing making the US the world's largest producer of oil. But has convinced Russia and Saudi Arabia not to use their last oil weapon Which is to cut the price of oil below that where US fracked oil is to expensive to bring out of the ground. The Saudis are still trying to up their production(I know this for a fact) so as to make sure they still have that weapon. But since the US is self sufficient in oil production, Trump has the counter weapon to ban the import of OPEC oil.

The Obama Admin originally embraced Fracking But by its end, was well on the way of killing it off.

In any event Trump has re-focused Arab pride in another direction by educating the Arab state that pride in not something worth losing one's head over.Trump is working to Make Middle East Wars Middle East Wars Again. Israel and the Arabs states have a much more deadly common enemy than each other. The Arabs live between Iraq and a hard place(Israel) Trump has driven this home to them.


I should give the Obama Admin some credit in this, as wel,l by pointing out how incompetent the US is as an ally under democrat party leadership. Which has lead to :
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“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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Milo
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Re: Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

Post by Milo » Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:52 pm

Clearly these announcements are staggered for maximums effect.
Bahrain has become the latest Arab nation to agree to normalize ties with Israel as part of a broader diplomatic push by President Donald Trump and his administration to further ease the Jewish state's relative isolation in the Middle East and find common ground with nations that share its wariness of Iran.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ba ... r-BB18Wqmp

neverfail
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Re: Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

Post by neverfail » Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:45 pm

cassowary wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:19 am
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:36 am

Cass believes blindly in violence as a desirable tool of international relations, thinking that nations can escape the consequences of such violence.
Well, violence is not desirable but unfortunately, sometimes necessary tool of international relations. How else do you defeat Hitler and Hirohito?
Well said Cass!

Both Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were employing violence to acheive foreign policy goals years before any of the western democracies fired a single shot in anger against them:

Nazi Germany = the bombing of Guernica, Spain, in 1937.
Imperial Japan = invasion of China in 1937.

Britain/France = western front 1940.
The USA = Pearl Harbour attack, late 1941.

Virtually all WW2 historians are in agreement that the failure of the Western democracies to oppose the Axis powers 1937-1940 only encouraged the ambitions of the Axis powers leading to more widespread aggression by these. In that regard the democracies created a monster for themselves through years of non-aggression.

I hope that one day Sertorio snaps out of his world of make-believe.

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Re: Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

Post by neverfail » Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:57 pm

Milo wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:52 pm
Clearly these announcements are staggered for maximums effect.
Bahrain has become the latest Arab nation to agree to normalize ties with Israel as part of a broader diplomatic push by President Donald Trump and his administration to further ease the Jewish state's relative isolation in the Middle East and find common ground with nations that share its wariness of Iran.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ba ... r-BB18Wqmp
Bahrain is/was a sitting duck. It's ruling family is Sunni Muslim but overwhealmingly its majority population if Shia. I have often thought that if Iran were to launch a seaborne invasion from across the Gulf the locals would most likely welcome the Iranians as liberators. The regime cannot survive long without being propped up by external powers. The question is that as a foreign power does Israel have what it takes to defend the regime as such a patron supportive power?

(That's as distinct from Israel using/exploiting the place as a marshalling centre for espionage and subversion against Iran: thereby giving the latter a valid incentive for aggression against Bahrain.)

By contrast; at least the Emirates have a crushing majority of Sunnis over Shia's. So were iran to invade the Emirs could reasonably except the local populace to assist them in opposing the invader - but NOT in Bahrain.

neverfail
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Re: My own fleeting memory of Bahrain.

Post by neverfail » Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:45 pm

The experience of an Aussie flying to London or any other airport destination in western Europe was/is not like that of an American or Canadian flying the relatively short stretch across the north Atlantic to the same destinations. The latter is airborne for only 6 or 7 hours and therefore has it easy but the Aussie is cooped up in an aircraft cabin for 24 hours or more. Even the more modern jet passenger aircraft in service now has only reduced the travelling time by a couple of hours since 1975 - the year I made my first ever foray to Europe.

1975 was the second year of the OPEC oil price increases. The sultan of Bahrain in those days offered QANTAS Airways the cheapest jet fuel in the world as an incentive to land there. So QANTAS management directed all of its aircraft on the Sydney/Melbourne to London run (known as the kangaroo route) to land there for refueling in both directions. Bahrain was a convenient mid-point location.

In thr trip to London our plane landed at Bahrain in the very early hours of the morning local time. As the aircraft spent about half an hour in the gradual descent to land I looked out through the porthole-window and saw aganist the dark backdrop of the Gulf waters below one oil super-tanker after another lined up at anchor awaiting their turn to berth: all lit up like christmas trees. It gave me an education of the sheer scale and magnitude of the global oil trade. Meantime as I looked west I could see the glow on the Saudi mainland from the flaring off of unwonted natural gas from their Ghawar oilfield (the world's biggest). More education for me on the global oil business.

Bahrain is located on an island in the Gulf. It is connected to the Saudi mainland by a long causeway.

Not much more to say about Bahrain on the trip there as our aircraft took off while it was still nighttime. - but on the return journey about 3 months later our aircraft landed in daylight hours. My most vivid memory is of oil rochers operating among date palms cheek-by jowl up against the edge of the airport tarmac. To me it seemed to iconically encaptualate the entire Gulf region.

All of this was new to me at the time as was the experience of long distance international travel. I had never in my life previously seen anything like it.

Alas, Bahrain's glory days as an oil producing and exporting principality seem to be now behind it. I have no idea how they support themselves these days.

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Re: Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

Post by Sertorio » Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:09 am

neverfail wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:45 pm
cassowary wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 3:19 am
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:36 am

Cass believes blindly in violence as a desirable tool of international relations, thinking that nations can escape the consequences of such violence.
Well, violence is not desirable but unfortunately, sometimes necessary tool of international relations. How else do you defeat Hitler and Hirohito?
Well said Cass!

Both Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan were employing violence to acheive foreign policy goals years before any of the western democracies fired a single shot in anger against them:

Nazi Germany = the bombing of Guernica, Spain, in 1937.
Imperial Japan = invasion of China in 1937.

Britain/France = western front 1940.
The USA = Pearl Harbour attack, late 1941.

Virtually all WW2 historians are in agreement that the failure of the Western democracies to oppose the Axis powers 1937-1940 only encouraged the ambitions of the Axis powers leading to more widespread aggression by these. In that regard the democracies created a monster for themselves through years of non-aggression.

I hope that one day Sertorio snaps out of his world of make-believe.
Except that now the violence, the threats and the shooting are done by the US with the help of some of its vassals... Who is going to stop them this time?...

neverfail
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Re: Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

Post by neverfail » Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:42 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:36 am
Younger Iranians are very pro-American and pro-Israel.
I never realized how prone to myths some of you are. Cass believes blindly in violence as a desirable tool of international relations, thinking that nations can escape the consequences of such violence. And Ellen thinks that people are conditioned by history, no matter how distant it may be. Of course people care about their history, but they will never allow history to stand in the way of their present interests. If Iran and Israel ever become partners, it will be because it will be in their common interest to be partners, not because of Cyrus and the old Persians relations with Israelis. But before such partnership, there must be a mutual show of respect, and truly I do not see Israelis or Iranians being prepared for such a show. In fact, ME peoples are so prone to underestimate their neighbours that respect is the last thing that would come to their minds. Cyrus may have been a tolerant ruler, but he was one of a kind. Until ME peoples learn to be tolerant of the differences among them I see no hope for peace in the region. And the US does everything it can to stoke that lack of tolerance, for its own selfish purposes.
Hi Sertorio!

I am belatedly commenting here because whilst Ellen is a highly persuavise individual who usually puts forth a good case, I was not entirely convinced by her pitch on Iran either.

I likewise have heard (not least from current affairs reports screened on Australian television over the years) that it is true that Iranians, especially younger generation Iranians, have something of an infatuation with American popular culture (they are not the only ones). Ellen seems to take it from that circumstantal evidence that all that needs to be done is to rid Iran of rule by the Ayatollahs and hey presto, a ready made ally for Israel.

( :lol: If the only thing you can draw is the wrong conclusion then you can't be much of an artist.)

I believe that most Iranians find that their regime of rule by the Ayatollahs is a pain in the butt. However they would still stand by their regime despite its unpopularity is they had reason to believe that foreign powers are conspiring to overthrow this regime. " They may be a bunch of pooh-bah pains in the arse but the point is they are OUR pains in the arse - so fuck off foreign meddlers."

The Americans have tried for decades to subvert and otherwise remove the Islamic Republican regime and all they have suceeded in doing has been to further drive the Iranians into rallying behind their clerical leadership. Now Ellen in a recent post of hers reveals that she believes that Israel (not being half-hearted bunglers like its American patrons) probably employing Mossad assets based in the UAE and/or Bahrain, can do better at bringing about regime change.

Well Ellen, you might be in for a rude shock from the Iranians if and when it happens - especially if becomes known that Israeli subversion is involved in the removal.

Israelophiles, admirers of the State of Israel and its acheivements in the West, seem to remain in a permanent state of denial over a fact that should be obvious. The State of Israel is an alien body inserted into the Middle East by historically recent external colonisation - remembering that the poineers were Zionist idealists from centrral and eastern Europe. As such it is a permanent thorn in the side for all neighbouring peoples. Ellen notes that the only two Arab States that "normalised" relations with Israel before now, Egypt and Jordan, still have a frosty relationship with Israel. I have reason to believe that the UAE and Bahrain will likely not relate to Israel with any greater warmth. Tolerance for the sake of a functional working relationship has never necessarily meant approval and acceptance.

My forecast = no matter how long the modern State of Israel is domesciled in the Middle East it will never be loved by its neighbours.

(But then, the Jews have a very long history behind them of being unloved.)

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Re: Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

Post by Jim the Moron » Sat Sep 12, 2020 4:10 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:42 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 12:36 am
Younger Iranians are very pro-American and pro-Israel.
I never realized how prone to myths some of you are. Cass believes blindly in violence as a desirable tool of international relations, thinking that nations can escape the consequences of such violence. And Ellen thinks that people are conditioned by history, no matter how distant it may be. Of course people care about their history, but they will never allow history to stand in the way of their present interests. If Iran and Israel ever become partners, it will be because it will be in their common interest to be partners, not because of Cyrus and the old Persians relations with Israelis. But before such partnership, there must be a mutual show of respect, and truly I do not see Israelis or Iranians being prepared for such a show. In fact, ME peoples are so prone to underestimate their neighbours that respect is the last thing that would come to their minds. Cyrus may have been a tolerant ruler, but he was one of a kind. Until ME peoples learn to be tolerant of the differences among them I see no hope for peace in the region. And the US does everything it can to stoke that lack of tolerance, for its own selfish purposes.
Hi Sertorio!

I am belatedly commenting here because whilst Ellen is a highly persuavise individual who usually puts forth a good case, I was not entirely convinced by her pitch on Iran either.

I likewise have heard (not least from current affairs reports screened on Australian television over the years) that it is true that Iranians, especially younger generation Iranians, have something of an infatuation with American popular culture (they are not the only ones). Ellen seems to take it from that circumstantal evidence that all that needs to be done is to rid Iran of rule by the Ayatollahs and hey presto, a ready made ally for Israel.

( :lol: If the only thing you can draw is the wrong conclusion then you can't be much of an artist.)

I believe that most Iranians find that their regime of rule by the Ayatollahs is a pain in the butt. However they would still stand by their regime despite its unpopularity is they had reason to believe that foreign powers are conspiring to overthrow this regime. " They may be a bunch of pooh-bah pains in the arse but the point is they are OUR pains in the arse - so fuck off foreign meddlers."

The Americans have tried for decades to subvert and otherwise remove the Islamic Republican regime and all they have suceeded in doing has been to further drive the Iranians into rallying behind their clerical leadership. Now Ellen in a recent post of hers reveals that she believes that Israel (not being half-hearted bunglers like its American patrons) probably employing Mossad assets based in the UAE and/or Bahrain, can do better at bringing about regime change.

Well Ellen, you might be in for a rude shock from the Iranians if and when it happens - especially if becomes known that Israeli subversion is involved in the removal.

Israelophiles, admirers of the State of Israel and its acheivements in the West, seem to remain in a permanent state of denial over a fact that should be obvious. The State of Israel is an alien body inserted into the Middle East by historically recent external colonisation - remembering that the poineers were Zionist idealists from centrral and eastern Europe. As such it is a permanent thorn in the side for all neighbouring peoples. Ellen notes that the only two Arab States that "normalised" relations with Israel before now, Egypt and Jordan, still have a frosty relationship with Israel. I have reason to believe that the UAE and Bahrain will likely not relate to Israel with any greater warmth. Tolerance for the sake of a functional working relationship has never necessarily meant approval and acceptance.

My forecast = no matter how long the modern State of Israel is domesciled in the Middle East it will never be loved by its neighbours.

(But then, the Jews have a very long history behind them of being unloved.)

Israelis labor under no ilusions re their Muslim neighbors - they know full well that Muslim true believers will never love them. While Islam preaches hatred of Jews on religious grounds, envy of accomplished Jews in Israel and elsewhere is also a factor - especially in Europe and in all Muslim lands.

Ellen
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Re: Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

Post by Ellen » Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:16 pm

Neverfail,

You are very much behind the times. There are huge changes going on in the Middle East, especially among the younger generation. And especially in Iran. A poll recently taken in Iran shows that only 40% of Iranians still view themselves as Muslims! And this is after 41 years of an Islamic Republic that prevents all other forms of culture from being disseminated!

Most of the remaining 60% view themselves as secular, or Zoroastrian (a dead religion but one that is associated with Persian nationalism), or even Christianity. These trends are even more true among the younger population. Young Iranians are pro-Israel partly because they are against their regime. It is not just that they think they are a pain the butt. They hate them. They view them as Arab conquerors bringing in a non-Iranian form of culture to impose upon them.

A recent Israeli TV series called "Teheran" was very watched inside Iran, in spite of being a Mossad thriller. You will be surprised how quickly Iran and Israel will become allies, after the current regime is gone. There isn't much Iranian national loyalty to this regime; it is viewed as anti-Iranian in fact. Pan-Islamism means it is anti-nationalistic, and the Iranian people are nationalists above all else, and especially above Islamism today.

With the Arabs, I tend to agree with you. They will never reconcile themselves to Israel as the homeland of the Jewish people, because this means Islam has been defeated. They believe that a land conquered by Islam must never be relinquished, even to its rightful owners. But sorry to say, the Arabs and their fantasies based on past glories have run their course. They are now nothing more than roadkill in the Mideast, for outside or regional powers to carve up into pieces. The Turks are carving their slices, the Iranians theirs, the Russians theirs, and Israel is only reclaiming what is rightfully its own homeland. What the Arabs really think is not very interesting to anyone. The Arab regimes are now fighting for their own survival, and they will make the deals they need to make - with acquiescence from their own populations - or their civilization will die. Very simple equation.

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Sertorio
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Re: Trump Nominated for Noble Peace Prize!

Post by Sertorio » Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:54 am

Ellen wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 10:16 pm

With the Arabs, I tend to agree with you. They will never reconcile themselves to Israel as the homeland of the Jewish people, because this means Islam has been defeated. They believe that a land conquered by Islam must never be relinquished, even to its rightful owners. But sorry to say, the Arabs and their fantasies based on past glories have run their course. They are now nothing more than roadkill in the Mideast, for outside or regional powers to carve up into pieces. The Turks are carving their slices, the Iranians theirs, the Russians theirs, and Israel is only reclaiming what is rightfully its own homeland. What the Arabs really think is not very interesting to anyone. The Arab regimes are now fighting for their own survival, and they will make the deals they need to make - with acquiescence from their own populations - or their civilization will die. Very simple equation.
The best chance Arabs have of being able to move forward is having a secular government. Like the one in Syria. And Israel and the US know no better than trying to overthrow Bashar al-Assad and open the door to the crazies, like they did in Iraq. Let Israel stop antagonizing al-Assad and be ready to return the Golan to Syria, and a major step would be given towards peace in the ME. Syria would readily throw the Palestinians under the bus if they could get the Golan back and regain control over the whole territory which is now occupied by the "coalition". While intelligence is definitely not Americans strongest suit, Israel should know better.

Just saw this:

https://sputniknews.com/analysis/202009 ... re-policy/
(...)

The prospect of a long-term Sino-Iranian collaboration has prompted mixed reactions from international observers: thus, Foreign Policy claimed that the deal is "bad news for the West", foreseeing a geopolitical reshuffle in the Middle East and Asia, with China boosting its foothold in strategically important locations. For its part, War on Rocks threw the accords into question, claiming that although "real and harmful dangers of Chinese-Iranian cooperation remain", the leaked grand design does not seem to be a workable idea anyway.

On 2 August, US Secretary of State Mike Pompeo joined the chorus of alarmists, asserting on Fox News that China’s entry into Iran "will destabilise the Middle East" and put Israel, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE "at risk".

There's nothing particularly surprising about Western mainstream media and Western governments' opposition to the Sino-Iranian pact, which symbolises a decisive shift towards the East by Iran, elaborates Mahan Abedin, a veteran journalist and analyst of Iranian and Middle Eastern politics.

"For more than 150 years Iran has looked to the West - and especially Europe - for trade, investment, education and general engagement", he says. "Even the Islamic Revolution of 1979 did not stop this process and over the past four decades lively debates have raged inside Iranian policy circles as to the utility (or otherwise) of deeper engagement with the West. But the failure of the nuclear deal (JCPOA), coupled with European impotence in the face of US bullying, has resulted in a loss of faith in the West in Iran".

(...)
If such a China - Iran treaty is being prepared, just forget about any future closer relations of Iran with Israel or the US...

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