Israel pipeline is no pipedream.

Discussion of current events
neverfail
Posts: 5802
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am
Location: Singapore

Israel pipeline is no pipedream.

Post by neverfail » Tue Sep 08, 2020 2:38 pm

https://asiatimes.com/2020/09/old-pipel ... or-israel/

A discreet and aged pipeline connecting the Red Sea to the Mediterranean lifts Israel's geostrategic importance.

The fillip of oil transit will not make Israel rich but it will make Israel more geostrategically important.

1. it will make Egypt unhappy as it will draw business away from the suez canal.

2. seperately, Israel's offshore gas reserves are becoming a bone of contention. The Isreal government has done a deal with Cyprus (which it shares the gas reserves with) and Greece to market the surplus gas to Europe via Greece. That potentially makes Trukey unhappy on two fronts. The first is that it reduces the importance of the "Turkstream" gas transit pipeline from Russia - and also Russia's other delivery pipelines to Europe become of diminished importance. Turkey als claims a lot of the waters and seabed where the Cypriot gas has been found along with prospecting rights in the bed of the Ageian Sea - Greek waters. The French government sent a warship to Crete as a warning to Turkish political strongman Erdoğan to the effect bugger off.

Russia and Turkey both have a common interest in stopping the gas bypass project from going ahead just as Israel Cyprus and Greece have an interest in seeing it go ahead. Will Egypt join in solidarity with Turkey and Russia in solidarity (even though their issue with Israel over the diversion of oil is a seperate one to the diversion of gas away from Turkey)? Could it all blow up into a major conflict in the eastern Mediterranean?

It is also clear that France is backing Greece, Cyprus and Israel against Turkey. How far would France be willing to go supporting these should such a conflict brew up.

User avatar
Milo
Posts: 2767
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:14 pm

Re: Israel pipeline is no pipedream.

Post by Milo » Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:36 pm

Trump's support for Israel is one of the few good things about his administration.

The UK and the US will pretty well always back Israel.

User avatar
cassowary
Posts: 4263
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 11:30 pm

Re: Israel pipeline is no pipedream.

Post by cassowary » Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:43 pm

Milo wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:36 pm
Trump's support for Israel is one of the few good things about his administration.

The UK and the US will pretty well always back Israel.
Trump is making progress in the Mid East with his strategy. In a nutshell, he bypassed the Intransigent Palestinians who don’t want peace and want to destroy Israel.

By getting more Muslim countries to recognise Israel, he is putting pressure on the Palestinians to settle. It’s still early days and Trump needs a couple of years to see it through.

Of course, all this is gone with the fart wind if the anti Semitic Democrats win the election.
The Imp :D

neverfail
Posts: 5802
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am
Location: Singapore

Re: Israel pipeline is no pipedream.

Post by neverfail » Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:43 pm

cassowary wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:43 pm
Milo wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:36 pm
Trump's support for Israel is one of the few good things about his administration.

The UK and the US will pretty well always back Israel.
Trump is making progress in the Mid East with his strategy. In a nutshell, he bypassed the Intransigent Palestinians who don’t want peace and want to destroy Israel.
Is he now? While Trump would no doubt approve from afrar, where is the testimomy presented in that Asia Times article that Trump had anything to do with it? Bearing in mind that the article only briefly mentions the UAE Emirates in relation to an oil transit pipeline connecting Israel's two coastlines (no mention of Trump) before moving on to focus more on the gas transportion deal with Cyprus and Greece - and the geostrategic and geopolitical implications of that agreement (no mention of Trump there either)? Why award credit to a very non-diplomatic egomanic for a diplomatic move about which Trump might well have been nothing but a passive bystander?

Supportive evidence, please! I don't buy wild aspersions.

Jim the Moron
Posts: 1936
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 9:51 pm

Re: Israel pipeline is no pipedream.

Post by Jim the Moron » Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:46 am

neverfail wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 11:43 pm
cassowary wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:43 pm
Milo wrote:
Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:36 pm
Trump's support for Israel is one of the few good things about his administration.

The UK and the US will pretty well always back Israel.
Trump is making progress in the Mid East with his strategy. In a nutshell, he bypassed the Intransigent Palestinians who don’t want peace and want to destroy Israel.
Is he now? While Trump would no doubt approve from afrar, where is the testimomy presented in that Asia Times article that Trump had anything to do with it? Bearing in mind that the article only briefly mentions the UAE Emirates in relation to an oil transit pipeline connecting Israel's two coastlines (no mention of Trump) before moving on to focus more on the gas transportion deal with Cyprus and Greece - and the geostrategic and geopolitical implications of that agreement (no mention of Trump there either)? Why award credit to a very non-diplomatic egomanic for a diplomatic move about which Trump might well have been nothing but a passive bystander?

Supportive evidence, please! I don't buy wild aspersions.

As it happens, the comments by Milo and cassowary address the Trump administration's successful efforts to support Israel in general - they didn't mention the pipeline. The belligerent manchild's assistance to Israel is well documented.

neverfail
Posts: 5802
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am
Location: Singapore

Re: Israel pipeline is no pipedream.

Post by neverfail » Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:05 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:46 am
As it happens, the comments by Milo and cassowary address the Trump administration's successful efforts to support Israel in general - they didn't mention the pipeline. The belligerent manchild's assistance to Israel is well documented.
True, but still outside the context of the Asia Times article which was focused on (seperate oil and gas) pipelines rather than on extraneous diplomatic moves.

User avatar
dagbay
Posts: 426
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:27 pm

Re: Israel pipeline is no pipedream.

Post by dagbay » Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:28 am

neverfail wrote:
Thu Sep 10, 2020 4:05 pm
Jim the Moron wrote:
Wed Sep 09, 2020 12:46 am
As it happens, the comments by Milo and cassowary address the Trump administration's successful efforts to support Israel in general - they didn't mention the pipeline. The belligerent manchild's assistance to Israel is well documented.
True, but still outside the context of the Asia Times article which was focused on (seperate oil and gas) pipelines rather than on extraneous diplomatic moves.
The pipeline you speak of is about 40 years old and has not been used in years. Owing to my scuba hobby I can attest to its state of disrepair. At the former docks there is coral growing and most of the oil damage is cleared.
Even at their heyday the docks could not handle super tankers of this modern era as the seabed is too shallow that close to shore.
This will not be a factor in Israel's political standing. The natural gas pipeline to the EU might play a role if it ever gets built.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

neverfail
Posts: 5802
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am
Location: Singapore

Re: Israel pipeline is no pipedream.

Post by neverfail » Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:53 pm

dagbay wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:28 am
The pipeline you speak of is about 40 years old and has not been used in years. Owing to my scuba hobby I can attest to its state of disrepair. At the former docks there is coral growing and most of the oil damage is cleared.
Even at their heyday the docks could not handle super tankers of this modern era as the seabed is too shallow that close to shore.
This will not be a factor in Israel's political standing. The natural gas pipeline to the EU might play a role if it ever gets built.
Thanks Dagbay. First hand knowledge is always a plus.

1. I believe that despite the fact that the Egyptians have in recent years widened and deepened the Suez Canal it still cannot handle the largest oil tankers - while in the case of the smaller ones they sting the shipping firms with iniquitous fees for transit. I was wondering (in your opinion) whether the oil pipeline is repairable and whether at the Eliat end it could be extended out onto deeper waters in the Gulf of Aqaba for intake from supertankers?

2. What is to stop the gas pipeline to Greece via Cyprus being built?

User avatar
dagbay
Posts: 426
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2016 8:27 pm

Re: Israel pipeline is no pipedream.

Post by dagbay » Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:54 pm

I
neverfail wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:53 pm
dagbay wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:28 am
The pipeline you speak of is about 40 years old and has not been used in years. Owing to my scuba hobby I can attest to its state of disrepair. At the former docks there is coral growing and most of the oil damage is cleared.
Even at their heyday the docks could not handle super tankers of this modern era as the seabed is too shallow that close to shore.
This will not be a factor in Israel's political standing. The natural gas pipeline to the EU might play a role if it ever gets built.
Thanks Dagbay. First hand knowledge is always a plus.

1. I believe that despite the fact that the Egyptians have in recent years widened and deepened the Suez Canal it still cannot handle the largest oil tankers - while in the case of the smaller ones they sting the shipping firms with iniquitous fees for transit. I was wondering (in your opinion) whether the oil pipeline is repairable and whether at the Eliat end it could be extended out onto deeper waters in the Gulf of Aqaba for intake from supertankers?

2. What is to stop the gas pipeline to Greece via Cyprus being built?
The pipeline could be renovated at some considerable investment.i have no status information about the pumping stations along the way so I am guessing that the would need an upgrade. The port of Eilat is not sufficiently deep for modern tankers but owing to the unique underwater topography of the Gulf which is part of the Syrian - Africa faultline, the seabed drops rapidly from the shore. The shape resembles giant stairs each slightly slopped and drops 10m to 30m to the next. I n some areas I have gone down to 100m no more than 150m from the shoreline. So the short answer is yes it is possible for a tanker to set anchor in deep waters provided suitable pipes are added to transport the crude.
On the Mediterranean side the ports have been recently rebuilt but I do not know if they are deep enough - probably a similar deep sea reloading can be built only the Mediterranean seafloor is extremely shallow and slopes slowly.you need a 30 minutes boat ride to get to 85m diving sites.
One more issue is those pesky Arabs which are too close for comfort in Gaza with super tankers holding millions of galons of flam ables on board...Remember that the pipeline was built way before the Oslo accords idiocy when Israel controlled the area.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

neverfail
Posts: 5802
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am
Location: Singapore

Re: Israel pipeline is no pipedream.

Post by neverfail » Mon Sep 14, 2020 5:07 am

dagbay wrote:
Sun Sep 13, 2020 12:54 pm
I
neverfail wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 6:53 pm
dagbay wrote:
Fri Sep 11, 2020 4:28 am
The pipeline you speak of is about 40 years old and has not been used in years. Owing to my scuba hobby I can attest to its state of disrepair. At the former docks there is coral growing and most of the oil damage is cleared.
Even at their heyday the docks could not handle super tankers of this modern era as the seabed is too shallow that close to shore.
This will not be a factor in Israel's political standing. The natural gas pipeline to the EU might play a role if it ever gets built.
Thanks Dagbay. First hand knowledge is always a plus.

1. I believe that despite the fact that the Egyptians have in recent years widened and deepened the Suez Canal it still cannot handle the largest oil tankers - while in the case of the smaller ones they sting the shipping firms with iniquitous fees for transit. I was wondering (in your opinion) whether the oil pipeline is repairable and whether at the Eliat end it could be extended out onto deeper waters in the Gulf of Aqaba for intake from supertankers?

2. What is to stop the gas pipeline to Greece via Cyprus being built?
The pipeline could be renovated at some considerable investment.i have no status information about the pumping stations along the way so I am guessing that the would need an upgrade. The port of Eilat is not sufficiently deep for modern tankers but owing to the unique underwater topography of the Gulf which is part of the Syrian - Africa faultline, the seabed drops rapidly from the shore. The shape resembles giant stairs each slightly slopped and drops 10m to 30m to the next. I n some areas I have gone down to 100m no more than 150m from the shoreline. So the short answer is yes it is possible for a tanker to set anchor in deep waters provided suitable pipes are added to transport the crude.
On the Mediterranean side the ports have been recently rebuilt but I do not know if they are deep enough - probably a similar deep sea reloading can be built only the Mediterranean seafloor is extremely shallow and slopes slowly.you need a 30 minutes boat ride to get to 85m diving sites.
One more issue is those pesky Arabs which are too close for comfort in Gaza with super tankers holding millions of galons of flam ables on board...Remember that the pipeline was built way before the Oslo accords idiocy when Israel controlled the area.
Yes, I believe that Askelon, the seaport where the pipeline terminates is within rocket range of Gaza - so attack by "pesky Arabs" is a possibility that must be considered.

But now what about the gas pipeline? As a guess, is the Turkish government disputing soverignty over sections of the seabed where they plan to lay down the pipeline?

I believe that it is a distinct possiblilty that war might break out between Greece and Turkey over the seabed of the Aegian Sea. All of the islands in this sea are part of Greek soverignty and some, like Lesbos, are within sight of the Turkish mainland. So under international law the entire seabed for purpose of oil and gas exploration up until a matter of kilometers of the Turkish coast belongs to Greece. The Turkish government has issued a map claiming the seabed to a point halfway between the Greek and Turkish mainlands (excluding the Greek islands). In addition Greece disputes soverignty over the stretch of seabed between the Turkish and Cypriot coasts. Turkey's position is that the ethnic Turk north of Cyprus is a soverign state so the offshore waters and seabed to a point halfway to the Turkish mainland belong to it. Greece says "no". That stretch of seabed to the halfway point belongs to the (internationally recognised) government of Cyprus which is Greek cypriot.

If the gas pipeline is built I believe that it will be a boon to Israel, Cyprus and Greece alike. But Turkish machanations might mean that building it is too politically risky.

Post Reply