Scots Wha Hae

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Jim the Moron
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Re: Scots Wha Hae

Post by Jim the Moron » Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:20 pm

It is a mistake to depict Scotland as an economic basket case with "a bleak future." There's plenty of innovative stuff going on there, and the economy is diverse. An independent Scotland will thrive, but it's all about freedom from the British yoke.

neverfail
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Re: Ireland is not a bad analogy.

Post by neverfail » Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:54 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:08 pm

The Irish Republic is poorer than Scotland and they manage. Do not underestimate Scots.
I do not blame the Irish for seeking independence from the UK the way they did as Ireland had been badly treated. It only joined the UK via outright English invasion. Scotland was/is in a totally different situation to Ireland in that it was never conquered by the English but freely joined in union with them seeking their own economic salvation.

Having stated that: Ireland, Scotland's Celtic cousin, is not such a bad comparison. As an Irish priest I knew (he is recently deceased) pointed out to me just a few years ago; when the Irish Fere State first came into being in 1922 with the Anglo-Irish peace accord of that year the Irish were a people unused to governing themselves. For centuries all of the big decisions had been made in London; so the Irish political leadership were on a steep learning curve - and of course mistakes were made along the way. 'It took us the best part of a century' the priest told me ' to build up the needed know-how for good government.'

They are still on a learning curve. Just over one to two decades ago thanks to a high-tech service boom centered in Dublin; Ireland, probably for the first time ever, enjoyed several years during which its average incomes were higher and living standards were better than in neighbouring Britain. Alas, unprecedented success led to cocksuredness. Following on from the high tech boom came a real estate speculative bubble which "popped" with the onset of the GFC in 2008.

The crash was catastropic for Ireland. Several of their banks went belly-up with an overload of bad debts - including their biggest. Their government then compounded the problem. Instead of following the example of Iceland and letting the errant banks sink into insolvency (let the private sector sort it out) the Irish government followed the example of the Obama administration in the USA and provided bail-out funds from public revenue - thereby turning private debt into public debt. Well Ireland is not the USA and the credit worthiness of a small country like that is much more easily exhausted. Ireland sunk into a post GFC recession and the exhaustion of international credit meant that their government lacked the funds to spend the country's way out of trouble. It has been a drag on their economy ever since.

Now it seems that the Republic of Ireland is handling the challenge of containing their coronavirus scourge even more incompetitently than they are in the UK - and that takes some doing.

So yes Sertorio: as you say "they manage" - but it seems none too well.

(Bearing in mind that Ireland is the ancesteral homeland where the majority of my immigrant ancestors come from. Am I proud of it the way that most people of Scottish anticedents abroad - like Jim the Moron - are proud of theirs? Well no, not really! More like grateful that my forebears emigrated to Australia the way they seem to eternally flounder around over there.)

The point is Sertorio: never imagine that soverign independence is some kind of automatic panacea for a country's ills.

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Sertorio
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Re: Ireland is not a bad analogy.

Post by Sertorio » Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:40 am

neverfail wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:54 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:08 pm

The Irish Republic is poorer than Scotland and they manage. Do not underestimate Scots.
I do not blame the Irish for seeking independence from the UK the way they did as Ireland had been badly treated. It only joined the UK via outright English invasion. Scotland was/is in a totally different situation to Ireland in that it was never conquered by the English but freely joined in union with them seeking their own economic salvation.

Having stated that: Ireland, Scotland's Celtic cousin, is not such a bad comparison. As an Irish priest I knew (he is recently deceased) pointed out to me just a few years ago; when the Irish Fere State first came into being in 1922 with the Anglo-Irish peace accord of that year the Irish were a people unused to governing themselves. For centuries all of the big decisions had been made in London; so the Irish political leadership were on a steep learning curve - and of course mistakes were made along the way. 'It took us the best part of a century' the priest told me ' to build up the needed know-how for good government.'

They are still on a learning curve. Just over one to two decades ago thanks to a high-tech service boom centered in Dublin; Ireland, probably for the first time ever, enjoyed several years during which its average incomes were higher and living standards were better than in neighbouring Britain. Alas, unprecedented success led to cocksuredness. Following on from the high tech boom came a real estate speculative bubble which "popped" with the onset of the GFC in 2008.

The crash was catastropic for Ireland. Several of their banks went belly-up with an overload of bad debts - including their biggest. Their government then compounded the problem. Instead of following the example of Iceland and letting the errant banks sink into insolvency (let the private sector sort it out) the Irish government followed the example of the Obama administration in the USA and provided bail-out funds from public revenue - thereby turning private debt into public debt. Well Ireland is not the USA and the credit worthiness of a small country like that is much more easily exhausted. Ireland sunk into a post GFC recession and the exhaustion of international credit meant that their government lacked the funds to spend the country's way out of trouble. It has been a drag on their economy ever since.

Now it seems that the Republic of Ireland is handling the challenge of containing their coronavirus scourge even more incompetitently than they are in the UK - and that takes some doing.

So yes Sertorio: as you say "they manage" - but it seems none too well.

(Bearing in mind that Ireland is the ancesteral homeland where the majority of my immigrant ancestors come from. Am I proud of it the way that most people of Scottish anticedents abroad - like Jim the Moron - are proud of theirs? Well no, not really! More like grateful that my forebears emigrated to Australia the way they seem to eternally flounder around over there.)

The point is Sertorio: never imagine that soverign independence is some kind of automatic panacea for a country's ills.
Sovereignty is a sign and a symbol of a people's dignity. Search for prosperity has nothing to do with it. Because, as I mentioned before, there are things more important than money.

neverfail
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Re: Ireland is not a bad analogy.

Post by neverfail » Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:18 am

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:40 am

Sovereignty is a sign and a symbol of a people's dignity. Search for prosperity has nothing to do with it. Because, as I mentioned before, there are things more important than money.
Fine if you have ample money and I am sure that you have; but as the Scots discovered back in 1707 if you are stone motherless broke then it is hard to impossible to maintain your dignity intact.

Jim the Moron
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Re: Ireland is not a bad analogy.

Post by Jim the Moron » Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:23 am

neverfail wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:18 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:40 am

Sovereignty is a sign and a symbol of a people's dignity. Search for prosperity has nothing to do with it. Because, as I mentioned before, there are things more important than money.
Fine if you have ample money and I am sure that you have; but as the Scots discovered back in 1707 if you are stone motherless broke then it is hard to impossible to maintain your dignity intact.

Sertario on this thread has at least 3 times expressed the view that Scots should do as they wish. And why not? Isn't that what liberal society should be about? Scots wha hae. n'fail needs to do some googling re Scotland's economy, and then report back to us. He can start with wiki. Is Scotland "stone motherless broke?"

I might suggest that Scots, left to their own devices, will put the rest of the UK to shame.

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Milo
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Re: Ireland is not a bad analogy.

Post by Milo » Wed Nov 11, 2020 8:10 am

Jim the Moron wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:23 am
neverfail wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 2:18 am
Sertorio wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 1:40 am

Sovereignty is a sign and a symbol of a people's dignity. Search for prosperity has nothing to do with it. Because, as I mentioned before, there are things more important than money.
Fine if you have ample money and I am sure that you have; but as the Scots discovered back in 1707 if you are stone motherless broke then it is hard to impossible to maintain your dignity intact.

Sertario on this thread has at least 3 times expressed the view that Scots should do as they wish. And why not? Isn't that what liberal society should be about? Scots wha hae. n'fail needs to do some googling re Scotland's economy, and then report back to us. He can start with wiki. Is Scotland "stone motherless broke?"

I might suggest that Scots, left to their own devices, will put the rest of the UK to shame.
They voted, they didn't want to leave.

neverfail
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Re: Ireland is not a bad analogy.

Post by neverfail » Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:32 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:23 am

Sertario on this thread has at least 3 times expressed the view that Scots should do as they wish.


They have the moral right. I only question the wisdom of exercising it.
n'fail needs to do some googling re Scotland's economy, and then report back to us.


:lol: I am not going to do something that you can so easily do yourself Jimmy. :)
He can start with wiki. Is Scotland "stone motherless broke?"
You don't need to exercise much brainpower to work out that the reference was to Scotland as it was back in 1707: though on that point the Scottish regional economy is so integrated with the immensly larger English one that it could not possibly seperate without suffering considerable, possibly irreparable damage.
I might suggest that Scots, left to their own devices, will put the rest of the UK to shame.
Dream on Jim - and that is all it is, a dream. Ireland, whose demographic size is far closer to that of Scotland than that of England has enjoyed independence from the UK for nearly a century (bicentennial in 2022) yet average incomes and general living standards there are still well below those of Great Britain. Why should I believe that an independent, soverign Scotland is destined to do any better?

Jim the Moron
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Re: Ireland is not a bad analogy.

Post by Jim the Moron » Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:15 pm

neverfail wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 1:32 pm
Jim the Moron wrote:
Wed Nov 11, 2020 4:23 am

Sertario on this thread has at least 3 times expressed the view that Scots should do as they wish.


They have the moral right. I only question the wisdom of exercising it.
n'fail needs to do some googling re Scotland's economy, and then report back to us.


:lol: I am not going to do something that you can so easily do yourself Jimmy. :)
He can start with wiki. Is Scotland "stone motherless broke?"
You don't need to exercise much brainpower to work out that the reference was to Scotland as it was back in 1707: though on that point the Scottish regional economy is so integrated with the immensly larger English one that it could not possibly seperate without suffering considerable, possibly irreparable damage.
I might suggest that Scots, left to their own devices, will put the rest of the UK to shame.
Dream on Jim - and that is all it is, a dream. Ireland, whose demographic size is far closer to that of Scotland than that of England has enjoyed independence from the UK for nearly a century (bicentennial in 2022) yet average incomes and general living standards there are still well below those of Great Britain. Why should I believe that an independent, soverign Scotland is destined to do any better?

Apparently unlike n'fail, I was willing to google up several sources re the modern Scotland economy. The optimism in my post was based on what I read. n'fail, by not availing himself of these sources, is doomed to wallow in ignorance regarding the economic outlook for Scots. You can lead a horse to water . . . Scots wha hae.


neverfail
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Re: Ireland is not a bad analogy.

Post by neverfail » Thu Nov 12, 2020 8:42 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Thu Nov 12, 2020 2:15 pm

Apparently unlike n'fail, I was willing to google up several sources re the modern Scotland economy. The optimism in my post was based on what I read. n'fail, by not availing himself of these sources, is doomed to wallow in ignorance regarding the economic outlook for Scots. You can lead a horse to water . . . Scots wha hae.

:lol:

I saw the same movvie. Entertaining!

Jim the Moron
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Re: Scots Wha Hae

Post by Jim the Moron » Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:55 am

Scottish independence will happen within five years"
https://dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics ... e-23151354

Do it!!

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