Scots Wha Hae

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Jim the Moron
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Scots Wha Hae

Post by Jim the Moron » Sun Sep 06, 2020 6:03 am

"Scotland: Support for independence surges"
https://dw.com/en/scotland-support-for- ... whatfinger

"Now's the day, and now's the hour"
https://poetryfoundation.org/poems/43813/scots-wha-hae

neverfail
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Re: Scots Wha Hae

Post by neverfail » Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:08 pm

Poor Scotland!

They now want to vote to seperate from the country whose taxpayers have been providing those government subsidies that have been keeping Scotland's regional economy (barely) alive for decades.

Soverign independence does not mean much when the national economy is insolvent.

Boris Johnson comes across as more of an English nationalist than a UK Unionist. He would likely be content to see Scotland go piss off somewhere else.

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Milo
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Re: Scots Wha Hae

Post by Milo » Sun Sep 06, 2020 10:32 pm

This sort of movement is more like a designer label than a protest sign.

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Sertorio
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Re: Scots Wha Hae

Post by Sertorio » Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:54 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:08 pm
Poor Scotland!

They now want to vote to seperate from the country whose taxpayers have been providing those government subsidies that have been keeping Scotland's regional economy (barely) alive for decades.

Soverign independence does not mean much when the national economy is insolvent.

Boris Johnson comes across as more of an English nationalist than a UK Unionist. He would likely be content to see Scotland go piss off somewhere else.
If that was a valid argument, half the countries in the world wouldn't be independent and would still be colonies... But of course, when money is the only value one knows...

neverfail
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Re: Scots Wha Hae

Post by neverfail » Mon Sep 07, 2020 4:47 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 8:08 pm
Poor Scotland!

They now want to vote to seperate from the country whose taxpayers have been providing those government subsidies that have been keeping Scotland's regional economy (barely) alive for decades.

Soverign independence does not mean much when the national economy is insolvent.

Boris Johnson comes across as more of an English nationalist than a UK Unionist. He would likely be content to see Scotland go piss off somewhere else.
Sertorio wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 11:54 pm
If that was a valid argument, half the countries in the world wouldn't be independent and would still be colonies...
Exactly - and in most cases would likely enjoy better government, improved fiscal solvency, as a consequence. Face up to it; half the countries on this earth do not DESERVE soverign independence.
....................................................................................................................................

Beginning with the British granting of independence to Ghana in 1957 and viewing from afar the successive granting of soverign independence by the UK to the rest of their empire in Africa; I recall my father remarking :what is the use of giving them independence when they do not know how to govern themselves properly? My dad like many of his generation may have had a streak of the white paternalist about him yet I believe that he had a point.

My father had served as a soldier serving in New Guinea at a time when most of the native populace were barely one step out of the stone age (and those who were not were still living entirely in it). It allowed him to sum up by direct observation how utterly hopeless it would be for these to govern their own affairs unassisted. My father's pessimism proved prophetic. Under pressure from the United Nations decolonisati0n committee Australia somewhat reluctantly granted Papua-Nuigini independence in 1975 and since then in has degenerated from being one of the most honestly administered countries in the world into one of the most corruptly governed.

Further, it has only been lavish amounts of aid money donated by Australian governments over the past half a century as subsidies to their national budget that has permitted this country to avoid utter economic collapse. So what the heck?

Enough said. The average New Guinea native would have been better off today had this former Australian trust territory and colony remained under Australian administration.

But of course, when money is the only value one knows...
No Sertorio. If you are uncaring about the state of the economy it will inevitably come back and bite you on the bum.

Jim the Moron
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Re: Scots Wha Hae

Post by Jim the Moron » Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:20 pm

"The Glue of the United Kingdom Is Slowly Dissolving"
https://bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/ ... dissolving

"The last independence referendum was meant to settle the issue of the Union for a generation. Yet now it's in peril again. The threat has international ramifications,"

Could it be that there are folks who distain largesse from a greater economy in order to further nationalistic ideals?

neverfail
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Re: Scots Wha Hae

Post by neverfail » Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:11 am

Jim the Moron wrote:
Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:20 pm
"The Glue of the United Kingdom Is Slowly Dissolving"
https://bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/ ... dissolving

"The last independence referendum was meant to settle the issue of the Union for a generation. Yet now it's in peril again. The threat has international ramifications,"

Could it be that there are folks who distain largesse from a greater economy in order to further nationalistic ideals?
Hi Jim.

I agree that the glue of the United Kingdom Is dissolving and now likely to do so with increasing speed.

Jim, as I see it the Scots were never fully reconciled to their incorporation into the British Union. There was an incident I witnesed in a university canteen over half a century ago that was illuminating. I was eating lunch with a mixed crowd of canteen workers and academics when one of the latter, an Englishman asked one of the former, a Scots immigrant lady "what part of England are you from?" The Scots lady looked nonplussed then burst out with "England?" (then louder, shriller) "England!" She said "England" as if uttering a dirty word and wsounded palpably outraged.

That incident was far from being the only such one like it I have experienced over my lifespan.

The point is that back in 1707 when the Scottish parliament voted to merge with the England parliament thereby merging the two national soverignties into the United Kingdom. Since Scotland was then not merely poor but out-and-out bankrupt Scotalnd really had nowhere else to go. But please note the Scots only agreed to tie their country's destiny to that of the then rising star of England - not to surrender their national identity.

The Scots seem to have compensated for that lack of national soverignty ever since with displays of fierce pride in their cultural heritage. On speacial occasions they like to don kilts and blow on bagpipes (you know how it is?) all part of giving England one in the eye. :)

As for Scotish people disdaining largesse from a greater economy I don't believe so. The Irish, traditionally a very unworldly people might have done so up until a generation or two ago but I have reason to believe that Scotland's Calvinist reformmation of the 16th and 17th centuries transformed the Scots into a more pragmatic/worldly bunch. In the Brexit referendum a few years ago in stark contrast to provincial England (Greater London voted "remain") Scotland voted solidly against seperation from Europe. Understandably so as I believe that Scotland was annually gaining as much from European Union "transfers" as it was out of state subsidies from Westminster. For the Scots to have voted for Brexit would have been tantamount to voting against theuir own country's meal ticket.

Now with the UK sinking into penury in the wake of their Coronavirus pandemic it looks as if England will not in future be able to subsidise Scotland as generouslyn as before. Of course the Scots would want "out".

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Sertorio
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Re: Scots Wha Hae

Post by Sertorio » Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:13 am

neverfail wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:11 am
In the Brexit referendum a few years ago in stark contrast to provincial England (Greater London voted "remain") Scotland voted solidly against seperation from Europe. Understandably so as I believe that Scotland was annually gaining as much from European Union "transfers" as it was out of state subsidies from Westminster. For the Scots to have voted for Brexit would have been tantamount to voting against theuir own country's meal ticket.

Now with the UK sinking into penury in the wake of their Coronavirus pandemic it looks as if England will not in future be able to subsidise Scotland as generouslyn as before. Of course the Scots would want "out".
Neverfail,

Fortunately not everything is a question of money, and some people put principles above money. Scots are a proud people, very independent minded, who never accepted well their submission to England. I'm thinking now of Sean Connery, a quite well off Scot, who certainly was not in favour of Scotland's independence in the hope of getting some handouts from the EU...

neverfail
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Re: Scots Wha Hae

Post by neverfail » Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:19 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:13 am

Neverfail,

Fortunately not everything is a question of money, and some people put principles above money. Scots are a proud people, very independent minded, who never accepted well their submission to England. I'm thinking now of Sean Connery, a quite well off Scot, who certainly was not in favour of Scotland's independence in the hope of getting some handouts from the EU...
Are all socialists economically illiterate or is it just you Sertorio? Yes, in absolute agreement with you that the Scots are a very proud people but no nation can subsist on pride. Scotland, when soverign independent once more will find itself in the same situation it was in in the early 18th century when reluctantly its parliament voted to merge with England as the price that had to be paid for rescue from bankruptcy and a bleak future. Among the benefits Scotland gained was access to the markets of England's colonial empire abroad as Scotland had been singularly unsuccessful at building one of its own. Think about it! A terrestial small country of just 5 million inhabitants; a very modest natural resource base (including dwindling offshore oil and gas reserves well past peak production). A country like that needs to belong to something bigger than itself in order to prosper. As for EU and English taxpayer subsidies this is just survival money that only barely keeps the Scottish regional economy afloat. The payments are not don a scale designed to make the country rich. The fact that Scotland needs them at all speaks volumes about the country's economic non-viability.

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Sertorio
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Re: Scots Wha Hae

Post by Sertorio » Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:08 pm

neverfail wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 12:19 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 4:13 am

Neverfail,

Fortunately not everything is a question of money, and some people put principles above money. Scots are a proud people, very independent minded, who never accepted well their submission to England. I'm thinking now of Sean Connery, a quite well off Scot, who certainly was not in favour of Scotland's independence in the hope of getting some handouts from the EU...
Are all socialists economically illiterate or is it just you Sertorio? Yes, in absolute agreement with you that the Scots are a very proud people but no nation can subsist on pride. Scotland, when soverign independent once more will find itself in the same situation it was in in the early 18th century when reluctantly its parliament voted to merge with England as the price that had to be paid for rescue from bankruptcy and a bleak future. Among the benefits Scotland gained was access to the markets of England's colonial empire abroad as Scotland had been singularly unsuccessful at building one of its own. Think about it! A terrestial small country of just 5 million inhabitants; a very modest natural resource base (including dwindling offshore oil and gas reserves well past peak production). A country like that needs to belong to something bigger than itself in order to prosper. As for EU and English taxpayer subsidies this is just survival money that only barely keeps the Scottish regional economy afloat. The payments are not don a scale designed to make the country rich. The fact that Scotland needs them at all speaks volumes about the country's economic non-viability.
The Irish Republic is poorer than Scotland and they manage. Do not underestimate Scots.

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