Capitalism, Health Care and the US

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Sertorio
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Capitalism, Health Care and the US

Post by Sertorio » Wed Sep 02, 2020 4:59 am

Image

No comments are needed. As far as health care and life expectancy are concerned, the US is a Third World country...

neverfail
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Re: Capitalism, Health Care and the US

Post by neverfail » Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:18 pm

It is well known that the US record in health care affordability is abysmal.

Does that not reflect the fact that those entrusted with the institutionalised power to change the situation for the better (members of your US Houses of Congress for instance, along with the presidency) are more inclined to listen to interest and pressure groups (who have a vested interest in keeping medical, pharmaceutical and hospital costs unaffordably high - like the US pharmaceutical corporations; private health funds and/or the American Medical Association - the AMA) than to be caring of the needs of the general public they were theoretically elected to serve?

US money politics! I believe that a typical member of your US House of Representatives needs a budget worth millions to get elected (or re-elected) and they have to stand for election once every two years. The temptation must therefore be to place themselves into hoc to corporate donors - who of course expect a "return on their investment". The result therefore is that whenever a sensible reform proposal comes to light these (and other) monied interest groups and external manipulators can always ensure that they have enough members of Congress beholden to them to stymie the reform.

Jim the Moron
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Re: Capitalism, Health Care and the US

Post by Jim the Moron » Wed Sep 02, 2020 7:30 pm

Yes, money politics is the norm in the US.

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Sertorio
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Re: Capitalism, Health Care and the US

Post by Sertorio » Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:36 am

neverfail wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:18 pm
It is well known that the US record in health care affordability is abysmal.

Does that not reflect the fact that those entrusted with the institutionalised power to change the situation for the better (members of your US Houses of Congress for instance, along with the presidency) are more inclined to listen to interest and pressure groups (who have a vested interest in keeping medical, pharmaceutical and hospital costs unaffordably high - like the US pharmaceutical corporations; private health funds and/or the American Medical Association - the AMA) than to be caring of the needs of the general public they were theoretically elected to serve?

US money politics! I believe that a typical member of your US House of Representatives needs a budget worth millions to get elected (or re-elected) and they have to stand for election once every two years. The temptation must therefore be to place themselves into hoc to corporate donors - who of course expect a "return on their investment". The result therefore is that whenever a sensible reform proposal comes to light these (and other) monied interest groups and external manipulators can always ensure that they have enough members of Congress beholden to them to stymie the reform.
Which should us all feel very comfortable with the US as the "leaders" of the "free world"...The war industry being what it is in the US, we can easily see who has our destiny in their hands... Time for a change?...

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dagbay
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Re: Capitalism, Health Care and the US

Post by dagbay » Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:24 am

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:36 am
neverfail wrote:
Wed Sep 02, 2020 6:18 pm
It is well known that the US record in health care affordability is abysmal.

Does that not reflect the fact that those entrusted with the institutionalised power to change the situation for the better (members of your US Houses of Congress for instance, along with the presidency) are more inclined to listen to interest and pressure groups (who have a vested interest in keeping medical, pharmaceutical and hospital costs unaffordably high - like the US pharmaceutical corporations; private health funds and/or the American Medical Association - the AMA) than to be caring of the needs of the general public they were theoretically elected to serve?

US money politics! I believe that a typical member of your US House of Representatives needs a budget worth millions to get elected (or re-elected) and they have to stand for election once every two years. The temptation must therefore be to place themselves into hoc to corporate donors - who of course expect a "return on their investment". The result therefore is that whenever a sensible reform proposal comes to light these (and other) monied interest groups and external manipulators can always ensure that they have enough members of Congress beholden to them to stymie the reform.
Which should us all feel very comfortable with the US as the "leaders" of the "free world"...The war industry being what it is in the US, we can easily see who has our destiny in their hands... Time for a change?...
The problem in the USA healthcare is related to its attempt to socialise it's healthcare system. The government meddling in the health care system caused price inflation and it's intrusive regulations come between a patient and his doctor. Moreover lifestyle choices made buy lazy people are subsidiesed by taxpayers. Obesity is rewarded rather than penalized through welfare programs which end up promoting it. Litigation adds to the mess by prompting physicians to cover their behinds and prescribe meds where exercise is required and unnecessary many timed harmful procedures to avoid litigation. Basically the health care system in the wealthiest country in the world is filled with improper incentives which lead to a grim outcome. Even socialised medicine can perform better and it would not be my first choice.

Europe OTOH is on the brink. It has built a socialised medical system but that government program depends on producers ponying up to pay the bills. Those were shutdown due to the wuhan viruses and brought the economy to a standstill. Govermnt Money has run out:
https://www.zerohedge.com/economics/eur ... s-hard-way
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

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Sertorio
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Re: Capitalism, Health Care and the US

Post by Sertorio » Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:34 am

dagbay wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:24 am

The problem in the USA healthcare is related to its attempt to socialise it's healthcare system. The government meddling in the health care system caused price inflation and it's intrusive regulations come between a patient and his doctor. Moreover lifestyle choices made buy lazy people are subsidiesed by taxpayers. Obesity is rewarded rather than penalized through welfare programs which end up promoting it. Litigation adds to the mess by prompting physicians to cover their behinds and prescribe meds where exercise is required and unnecessary many timed harmful procedures to avoid litigation. Basically the health care system in the wealthiest country in the world is filled with improper incentives which lead to a grim outcome. Even socialised medicine can perform better and it would not be my first choice.
Am I excused being confused?... :shock:

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dagbay
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Re: Capitalism, Health Care and the US

Post by dagbay » Sat Sep 05, 2020 12:25 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:34 am
dagbay wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:24 am

The problem in the USA healthcare is related to its attempt to socialise it's healthcare system. The government meddling in the health care system caused price inflation and it's intrusive regulations come between a patient and his doctor. Moreover lifestyle choices made buy lazy people are subsidiesed by taxpayers. Obesity is rewarded rather than penalized through welfare programs which end up promoting it. Litigation adds to the mess by prompting physicians to cover their behinds and prescribe meds where exercise is required and unnecessary many timed harmful procedures to avoid litigation. Basically the health care system in the wealthiest country in the world is filled with improper incentives which lead to a grim outcome. Even socialised medicine can perform better and it would not be my first choice.
Am I excused being confused?... :shock:
No Sertorio, a well planned and executed socialized medicine system can be far better than a half ass implementation aka Obamacare with all the other issues left behind to sabotage it's deployment. A free market system without deep government intervention would do better than socialized medicine. A well though out part socialized part free market might be possible as well.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

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dagbay
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Re: Capitalism, Health Care and the US

Post by dagbay » Sat Sep 05, 2020 4:17 pm

One more thing, the curve shows healthcare expenditure vs life expectancy. It does not account for typical extremely unhealthy US lifestyle and individual choices. People live to eat, participation in sport activity is limited to being a spectator at best. Food is medicine for boardroom. Drugs instead of sport participation, heavy work of lifting, digging done by illegal alians or machines no job too small. Lifestyle is the first factor in USA mortality.
I'd rather be diving or flying alas for now I am on terra firma.

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Re: Capitalism, Health Care and the US

Post by lzzrdgrrl » Sun Sep 06, 2020 4:26 pm

The cartelisation of American healthcare with government and public (Medicare) and private insurance borders on insufferable and it isn't necessarily deliberate. It's like a century old house that's gone through shoddy patchwork and make-do repairs by three generations of incompetent electricians, plumbers and handymen. A better way may be rethinking why we are in this state rather than socialising this mess and expecting that to solve anything:



Now I know this doesn't address the topic at hand, but it addresses the larger issue this topic is a component of. The original project may have stalled, but 'Plan B' is metastasising all over the IDW.....'>......
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neverfail
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Re: Capitalism, Health Care and the US

Post by neverfail » Sun Sep 06, 2020 4:37 pm

EllenS wrote:
Sun Sep 06, 2020 3:23 am
Dagbay is correct. The American lifestyle is more responsible for illness and early death than any default in the healthcare system, although the HC system needs repair too.

I always supported nationalized healthcare because the private system in America makes no sense, creates a colossal waste of expenditure on unnecessary bureaucracy, and has proven not to be as effective as socialized healthcare in other countries. But part of the reason why the statistics of American healthcare are so bad is because of the lifestyle choices of substantial chunks of the population.

Self-inflicted harm cannot be cured by anything the government does.

For this, the US needs a cultural reformation. There doesn't appear to be any one offering to lead this reformation.
Once again Ellen there is nothing I want to argue against in your above post except for one tiny detail that nevertheless has big implications: your use of the term socialised healthcare.

Do you really believe that in the dozens of countries abroad that have adopted, wholly or partly, national health cover policies were guided to do so by some urge to further a socialist agenda? The thin end of the wedge to open the path for a Soviet Union scenario where all productive and distributive assets are state owned? Well, over the years that is the impression that quite a few Americans have given me that they believe.

Though I do not believe that you consciously intended to do so Ellen: by tagging national healthcare as socialised you are affirming a widespread American conceptional error therefore making it that much harder for the US to ever acheive a sensible healthcare outcome.

(The fact that a lot of Americans may make bad lifestyle choices is no excuse for not having better healthcare policy.)

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