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cassowary
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Re: Hypocrisy over opposition to China's claims to those islands.

Post by cassowary » Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:41 pm

neverfail wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 4:20 pm
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 3:04 pm
China has shown it does not abide by international rules or norms. It makes its own rules.
So is the "alternative China" Taiwan. It owns the very first outpost built on those disputed islands (in 1946) for the purpose of claiming the South China Sea as Chinese waters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spratly_Islands

In November 1946, the ROC sent naval ships to take control of the islands after the surrender of Japan.[77] It had chosen the largest and perhaps the only inhabitable island, Taiping Island, as its base, and it renamed the island under the name of the naval vessel as Taiping. Also following the defeat of Japan at the end of World War II, the ROC re-claimed the entirety of the Spratly Islands (including Taiping Island) after accepting the Japanese surrender of the islands based on the Cairo and Potsdam Declarations. The Republic of China then garrisoned Itu Aba (Taiping) island in 1946 and posted Chinese flags.
....and they hold on to Taiping island as a permanently staffed ROC outpost to this very day.

The "nine dotted line" claim to the Islands and waters of the South China Sea was originally a Kuomintang innovation that then PRC "inherited" as baggage from its predecessor only after it came to power at the end of the Chinese civil war (in 1949).

(I notice that the same powers that are today adamently opposed to PRC moves to annex the South China Seas, such as the USA, had no qualms about the KUOMINTANG annexation of those islands and waters back in the latter 1940's. What is the difference? It still repesents the loss of the South China Sea as an international waterway to China. Therein lies the hypocrisy!)

It moves me to wonder whether the more recent moves by the PRC to consolidate its hold on the region is tied up with it's unrelenting drive for legetimacy by the progressive elimination of its old nemesis on Taiwan as rival claiment to being the legetimate government of China.

So what about it Cassowary? If the PRC is guilty of going against internationalm rules and norms by occupying the islands, was not Chiang Kai Checks crowd guilty of exactly then same sin?

Does not the Republic of China (Taiwan) still demonstrate the same contempt by continuing to maintain that outpost on Taiping Island?
The 9 dash line was first drawn by a cartographer when Chiang Kai Shek ruled mainland China. But the Taiwanese do not aggressively claim the sea. They don't have the power to do so and trying to avoid isolation. It cannot afford to offend its neighbors. Nor did Chiang Kai Shek press claims when he was in power in China.

I told you long ago, Neverfail. If you want to understand any country's thinking, you have to look at its history. I showed you Utube videos of China's changing borders over the millennia two or three times here. Over the many millennia, China expanded when they were strong and contracted or even fractured when they were weak. That had been the historical pattern.

You didn't take it seriously before and even said something like, "Its their turn now". Now it is following the same path as did Chinese emperors of ages ago. Xi is a modern day emperor. He sees an appeal to Chinese pride and nationalism to be the only way to maintain power for the CCP. The CCP is encouraging the Chinese people to have the same mindset as the Germans did after their defeat in WWI.

That is humiliation and a thirst of revenge. The CCP is encouraging this. We should all be worried. America alone cannot stand against the Chinese behemoth. It needs allies - Japan, India especially. The US needs to withdraw its troops from Europe so that it can focus on China. Let the rich, spoilt Europeans defend themselves against Russia. They have the means to do it. So don't let the bums get away with it.

So long as the CCP is in power, the US and its allies in Asia are heading for a confrontation with unpredictable results. I still believe that a military conflict is unlikely in the nuclear age. It will more be a economic and technological contest. Our best hope for a peaceful, prosperous Asia will be to bring about a democratic regime in China. Democracies rarely go to war against other democracies. An open society will bring up new ideas and the Chinese will learn there is no need to dominate others to restore national prestige. A democratic China will break the historical pattern.
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Sertorio
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Re: Hypocrisy over opposition to China's claims to those islands.

Post by Sertorio » Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:24 am

cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:41 pm
The CCP is encouraging the Chinese people to have the same mindset as the Germans did after their defeat in WWI.

(...)That is humiliation and a thirst of revenge. The CCP is encouraging this. We should all be worried. America alone cannot stand against the Chinese behemoth. It needs allies - Japan, India especially. The US needs to withdraw its troops from Europe so that it can focus on China. Let the rich, spoilt Europeans defend themselves against Russia. They have the means to do it. So don't let the bums get away with it.(...)
China has no reason to feel humiliated. Its present success is more than enough proof of China's capabilities, and past misfortunes are too incidental to create a feeling of humiliation. In fact I see the Chinese as being quite sure of themselves and ready to put the US in its place.

As to the US withdrawing its troops from Europe, I am 100% in agreement...

neverfail
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Re: Hypocrisy over opposition to China's claims to those islands.

Post by neverfail » Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:21 am

cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:41 pm


The 9 dash line was first drawn by a cartographer when Chiang Kai Shek ruled mainland China. But the Taiwanese do not aggressively claim the sea.
But they still claim the sea.
They don't have the power to do so and trying to avoid isolation. It cannot afford to offend its neighbors.


Which means that the difference between the ROC and the PRC is only one of relative power: not one of Taiwan holding to a morally superior policy position.
Nor did Chiang Kai Shek press claims when he was in power in China.


No wonder! With a growing Communist rebel army making gains in China's hinterland at the time Chinag would have had plenty else on his plate to occupy his time and energy at home. But that was only a matter of opportunity, not of intent.
I told you long ago, Neverfail. If you want to understand any country's thinking, you have to look at its history. I showed you Utube videos of China's changing borders over the millennia two or three times here. Over the many millennia, China expanded when they were strong and contracted or even fractured when they were weak. That had been the historical pattern.
Thanks for those UTube video Cassowary - I enjoyed looking at it - several times in succession. I have known about all of those shifts and changes in China's fortunes ever since I undertook a unit of Chinese history at university half a century ago - but that video illustrated them vividly.
You didn't take it seriously before and even said something like, "Its their turn now". Now it is following the same path as did Chinese emperors of ages ago. Xi is a modern day emperor.
I did take it seriously Cass: its just that I did not exactly shout the news from the rooftops.

With the USA apparently going silly under a succession of character and policy weak presidents (of whom the current one is so far the worst) and with no other Western country capable of compensating for America's default on responsibility: the opportunity has opened up for a rising power like the PRC to step up and fill in the power vacumn void thus created.

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cassowary
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Re: Hypocrisy over opposition to China's claims to those islands.

Post by cassowary » Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:03 am

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:24 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:41 pm
The CCP is encouraging the Chinese people to have the same mindset as the Germans did after their defeat in WWI.

(...)That is humiliation and a thirst of revenge. The CCP is encouraging this. We should all be worried. America alone cannot stand against the Chinese behemoth. It needs allies - Japan, India especially. The US needs to withdraw its troops from Europe so that it can focus on China. Let the rich, spoilt Europeans defend themselves against Russia. They have the means to do it. So don't let the bums get away with it.(...)
China has no reason to feel humiliated. Its present success is more than enough proof of China's capabilities, and past misfortunes are too incidental to create a feeling of humiliation. In fact I see the Chinese as being quite sure of themselves and ready to put the US in its place.

As to the US withdrawing its troops from Europe, I am 100% in agreement...
It is in the CCP's interest to keep making the Chinese people feel aggrieved over things that happened 200 years ago in order to keep them under their thumb.
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cassowary
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Re: Hypocrisy over opposition to China's claims to those islands.

Post by cassowary » Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:10 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:24 am

As to the US withdrawing its troops from Europe, I am 100% in agreement...
Then please get the European countries, especially Germany, to increase their defence spending and develop your own nuclear deterrent so that the Americans can reposition their military resources in Asia. Start with your own country, Portugal.

You may need to cut spending on other areas, such as social spending, and redirect the funds to the military.

............................................................................................................................

Hahaha. I knew you leftists won't like that. As usual, you live in a world of make believe. A fantasy.
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Re: Hypocrisy over opposition to China's claims to those islands.

Post by cassowary » Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:23 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:21 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:41 pm


The 9 dash line was first drawn by a cartographer when Chiang Kai Shek ruled mainland China. But the Taiwanese do not aggressively claim the sea.
But they still claim the sea.
It is not clear what they actually claim. I thought they only claim the islands. Their claims are vague, perhaps deliberately so.

Excerpt:
Since the issuance of the 1947 map, Taiwan has never claimed a historical entitlement to all the waters within the U-shaped line. As a matter of international law, this means that Taiwan already adheres to the legal principle of mare liberum, which stresses freedom of navigation and that the ocean cannot be occupied. Therefore, it is hard to imagine Taiwan would claim the waters within the U-shaped line as its exclusive territorial.
What Taiwan should do is to make a statement to clarify once and for all and make explicit what has been implicit - that it has never claimed the South China Sea itself. Its claims are limited only to the islands. So ships have the right to pass through the waters.

With the USA apparently going silly under a succession of character and policy weak presidents (of whom the current one is so far the worst) and with no other Western country capable of compensating for America's default on responsibility: the opportunity has opened up for a rising power like the PRC to step up and fill in the power vacumn void thus created.
Now, that's not fair or true. Trump is the first President to make a break with China. He confronted China's cheating, imposed sanctions, forged closer ties with India, encouraging Japan to rearm, imposed ban on Huawei and encouraging allies to do so. Trump has done a lot.

I feel safer with a second term for Trump as President than a President Biden, who went soft on China during the oBUMa administration so that his son, Hunter, could get a great deal from China.

I think you do have a blind spot problem.
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neverfail
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Re: Hypocrisy over opposition to China's claims to those islands.

Post by neverfail » Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:49 pm

cassowary wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:23 pm
neverfail wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:21 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:41 pm


The 9 dash line was first drawn by a cartographer when Chiang Kai Shek ruled mainland China. But the Taiwanese do not aggressively claim the sea.
But they still claim the sea.
It is not clear what they actually claim. I thought they only claim the islands. Their claims are vague, perhaps deliberately so.

Excerpt:
Since the issuance of the 1947 map, Taiwan has never claimed a historical entitlement to all the waters within the U-shaped line. As a matter of international law, this means that Taiwan already adheres to the legal principle of mare liberum, which stresses freedom of navigation and that the ocean cannot be occupied. Therefore, it is hard to imagine Taiwan would claim the waters within the U-shaped line as its exclusive territorial.
What Taiwan should do is to make a statement to clarify once and for all and make explicit what has been implicit - that it has never claimed the South China Sea itself. Its claims are limited only to the islands. So ships have the right to pass through the waters.
Stop making excuses for Taiwan Cass. Your partiality is both obvious and flagrant.

The "islands", mostly shoals and reefs, mere specks of grit, are useless by themselves and are not worth claiming - except as keys to possession of the adjoining waters and seabed. The fact that the vast majority of then are closer to the coastlines of 5 southeast Asian littoral states than to even the closest part of China makes a mockery of Chinese claims to soverignty over them.

In any case the United Nations has spoken:
On 29 October 2015, the arbitral tribunal ruled that it has jurisdiction over the case, taking up seven of the 15 submissions made by the Philippines. ... The tribunal also ruled that China has "no historical rights" based on the "nine-dash line" map. China has rejected the ruling, as has Taiwan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippin ... s%20Taiwan.
neverfail wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:21 am
With the USA apparently going silly under a succession of character and policy weak presidents (of whom the current one is so far the worst) and with no other Western country capable of compensating for America's default on responsibility: the opportunity has opened up for a rising power like the PRC to step up and fill in the power vacumn void thus created.
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:41 pm
Now, that's not fair or true. Trump is the first President to make a break with China. He confronted China's cheating, imposed sanctions, forged closer ties with India, encouraging Japan to rearm, imposed ban on Huawei and encouraging allies to do so. Trump has done a lot.
Conceded and agreed! It's an ill wind that blows nobody any good. This foreign policy move I see as one of the few compensating, redeeming features of his otherwise wasted administration. But on the home front this same Trump is driving the tattered remnants of democracy in the USA towards extinctionl. By the time this egomanic President (Vladimar Putin's pet Quisling ruler in the White House? ) finishes his work there the USA will likely not be worth having as an ally - leaving the likes of Japan, Australia and India to carry on coping with China alone.

Can it work? No, it can't!
I feel safer with a second term for Trump as President than a President Biden, who went soft on China during the oBUMa administration so that his son, Hunter, could get a great deal from China.
I know you do!

Obama was Biden's boss and Obama was a lamentably irresolute president. In foreign policy Biden was more likely to have been doing Obama's bidding than charting his own policy course for the sake of (alleged) nepotism benefits for his son. As far as I am concerned Biden is still an unproven quantity as potential future President. The only reason why currently I feel somewhat more favourable towards him is because all of the signs and portents point to this man being a lot more respectful of the norms and conventions of American democracy than Trump has provento be.

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Re: Hypocrisy over opposition to China's claims to those islands.

Post by cassowary » Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:25 pm

neverfail wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:49 pm
cassowary wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:23 pm
neverfail wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:21 am
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:41 pm


The 9 dash line was first drawn by a cartographer when Chiang Kai Shek ruled mainland China. But the Taiwanese do not aggressively claim the sea.
But they still claim the sea.
It is not clear what they actually claim. I thought they only claim the islands. Their claims are vague, perhaps deliberately so.

Excerpt:
Since the issuance of the 1947 map, Taiwan has never claimed a historical entitlement to all the waters within the U-shaped line. As a matter of international law, this means that Taiwan already adheres to the legal principle of mare liberum, which stresses freedom of navigation and that the ocean cannot be occupied. Therefore, it is hard to imagine Taiwan would claim the waters within the U-shaped line as its exclusive territorial.
What Taiwan should do is to make a statement to clarify once and for all and make explicit what has been implicit - that it has never claimed the South China Sea itself. Its claims are limited only to the islands. So ships have the right to pass through the waters.
Stop making excuses for Taiwan Cass. Your partiality is both obvious and flagrant.

The "islands", mostly shoals and reefs, mere specks of grit, are useless by themselves and are not worth claiming - except as keys to possession of the adjoining waters and seabed. The fact that the vast majority of then are closer to the coastlines of 5 southeast Asian littoral states than to even the closest part of China makes a mockery of Chinese claims to soverignty over them.

In any case the United Nations has spoken:
On 29 October 2015, the arbitral tribunal ruled that it has jurisdiction over the case, taking up seven of the 15 submissions made by the Philippines. ... The tribunal also ruled that China has "no historical rights" based on the "nine-dash line" map. China has rejected the ruling, as has Taiwan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippin ... s%20Taiwan.
As I said and also that article I linked to, Taiwan has implicitly acknowledged that they don't own the S China Sea. Taiwan only claims some islands. The Islands are, as you say, not important. They have been used by Chinese fishermen for centuries as temporary stops for whatever reasons. So had fishermen of other nations. The sea is what matters because trillions dollars worth of cargo go through the sea each year. The sea may also contain oil and gas. Nobody really knows. So that is the importance difference.

Taiwan has implicitly not claimed the South China Sea. China has explicitly claimed the sea. That's another important difference. Now, what I would like to see is that Taiwan explicitly state that it does not claim the S China Sea.

neverfail wrote:
Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:21 am
With the USA apparently going silly under a succession of character and policy weak presidents (of whom the current one is so far the worst) and with no other Western country capable of compensating for America's default on responsibility: the opportunity has opened up for a rising power like the PRC to step up and fill in the power vacumn void thus created.
cassowary wrote:
Sun Jul 26, 2020 8:41 pm
Now, that's not fair or true. Trump is the first President to make a break with China. He confronted China's cheating, imposed sanctions, forged closer ties with India, encouraging Japan to rearm, imposed ban on Huawei and encouraging allies to do so. Trump has done a lot.
Conceded and agreed! It's an ill wind that blows nobody any good. This foreign policy move I see as one of the few compensating, redeeming features of his otherwise wasted administration. But on the home front this same Trump is driving the tattered remnants of democracy in the USA towards extinctionl. By the time this egomanic President (Vladimar Putin's pet Quisling ruler in the White House? ) finishes his work there the USA will likely not be worth having as an ally - leaving the likes of Japan, Australia and India to carry on coping with China alone.

Can it work? No, it can't!
I welcome your concession. You are a gentleman. It is the unrepentant Marxists that is trying to destroy democracy and Trump is trying to stop them. They riot and burn and loot. Democratic Mayors, who eye their votes, are refraining from reining them in. Trump has sent Federal police officers to protect Federal property. But Democrats have opposed this. Who are the ones that threaten democracy? It is the Marxists and some Democratic politicians.
I feel safer with a second term for Trump as President than a President Biden, who went soft on China during the oBUMa administration so that his son, Hunter, could get a great deal from China.
I know you do!

Obama was Biden's boss and Obama was a lamentably irresolute president. In foreign policy Biden was more likely to have been doing Obama's bidding than charting his own policy course for the sake of (alleged) nepotism benefits for his son. As far as I am concerned Biden is still an unproven quantity as potential future President. The only reason why currently I feel somewhat more favourable towards him is because all of the signs and portents point to this man being a lot more respectful of the norms and conventions of American democracy than Trump has provento be.
It is the Democratic politicians that are not respectful of the norms of democracy. They are allowing these violent mobs to burn and loot and trying to undermine law and order by cutting funding to the police.
The Imp :D

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Sertorio
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Re: Hypocrisy over opposition to China's claims to those islands.

Post by Sertorio » Tue Jul 28, 2020 11:16 pm

cassowary wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:25 pm

Taiwan has implicitly not claimed the South China Sea. China has explicitly claimed the sea. That's another important difference. Now, what I would like to see is that Taiwan explicitly state that it does not claim the S China Sea.
What does that mean, "claim the sea"?... Does it mean preventing other nations from navigating through it? You know it doesn't...

neverfail
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Re: Hypocrisy over opposition to China's claims to those islands.

Post by neverfail » Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:47 am

cassowary wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 8:25 pm
. It is the unrepentant Marxists that is trying to destroy democracy and Trump is trying to stop them. They riot and burn and loot.
One of these days I will challenge you to prove that Marxists have anything to do with it.

The ones doing the burning and looting are more likely to have been members of criminal gangs - mainly though not entirely from the black ghettos. These are simply angry young men who have grown up to have no respect for the law. I doubt whether many of them would even know who Marx was let along his doctrine.

The message I get over TV news and current affairs is that Trump sent those Federal officers into Portland as uniformed thugs to cow and intimidate those who he perceives as political opponents and by so doing has arguably made a bad situation worse.

I am probably wasting my keystrokes on you. You will continue to believe in whatever Marxist conspiracy theory twaddle you want.
..................................................................................................................................

p.s. the last and only time that I visited Portland, Oregon, was just over 4 decades ago. What struck me about it at the time was how well members of the black and white communities seemed to get along. I had prior to that witnessed a couple of incidents in The South that convinced me that racial tension was still somewhat rife there but in Portland there was not a sign of it. It looked like a prosperous and well run provincial city. I doubt whether things there would have degenerated since - which is why I have been astonished by the recent news footage from over there.

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