Some Chinese want to retake Vladivostok

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Sertorio
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Re: Some Chinese want to retake Vladivostok

Post by Sertorio » Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:24 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:47 am
Doc wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:34 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:36 am
I would just remind some of you that a Chinese peasant's army, poorly equipped, almost wiped out the US army in Korea, in the 50's... Short of a massive nuclear attack on China, the US doesn't have a chance in hell of winning a shooting war with China. But I suppose the "exceptionals" still believe in miracles...
Korea? As I recall the Chinese lost 30 solders to each US causality. Vietnam kicked CCP butt back in the 70's ANd just a few weeks ago the Indian army fought with CCP special forces in brutal hand to hand combat The CCP not only did not announce how many of its little princeling soldiers died but did not even have a burial ceremony to honor them lest the Chinese people found out how many of their single child soldiers died. But it is pretty apparent the the CCP once again got its butt kicked. Imagine how popular it would be among Chinese one child parents if their one child was killed. Imagine what kind of soldiers little princelings make. It is no wonder the CCP has given up making additional and inferior air craft carriers.
Don't be overconfident, Doc. Much as I hate the Communist Party of China, you must not underestimate the Chinese people.
I would advise the non-Chinese here to watch regularly the Chinese tv channel CGTN Documentary:

https://www.cgtn.com/channel/documentary

I do, regularly, and the last thing I would do would be underestimating China and the Chinese...

neverfail
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Re: Some Chinese want to retake Vladivostok

Post by neverfail » Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:24 pm

cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:47 am
Don't be overconfident, Doc. Much as I hate the Communist Party of China, you must not underestimate the Chinese people.
Thr problem does not seem to be one of Doc underestimating the Chinese people as much as OVERESTIMATING his own side.

After all, arn't the Americans supposed to win, win, win every time? Hollywood war movies and their re-runs on television have for decades reassurid them that it is so.

Doc points out (correctly) that US military technology ensured that the opposing side suffered far higher casualty rates than the Americans and allies during both the Korean and Vietnam wars. As though war was a contest in killing more on the enemy than your own mortality rate. The point that Doc fails to acknowledge is that the Korean War ended in a US stalemate (after Chinese forces had pushed them back clear from their frontier with Korea) while the Vietnam War ended with a clear (Vietnamese, not Soviet or Chinese) Communist victory (in case you have not noticed that since 1975 both halves of Vietnam has been unified under Communist Party rule).

In the case of both conflicts it was the Americans cut and ran. In both cases because of war weariness on the home front. While in the case of the Korean War recent memories of the Second World War may have inspired dread of becoming embroiled in a longer, more widespread conflict I suspect that even in that conflict the American public may have become victim of that ingrained hope and expectation of swift and easy victory over "the enemy" regardless of who the enemy happens to be.

(Right now it looks as if they are about to cede Afghanistan back to the Taliban in like manner; following the same script followed in Korea and again in Vietnam).
..........................................................................................................................

I do not know how Americans would go if they had to fight a war for national survival like the one the Russians had to wage against invading Nazi Germaan forces from 1941 to 1944 - hopefully if they did they would demonstrate the same kind of grim determination as the Russians did then. But the thing to note about Americans is that when they have to fight a war in a distant region of the earth (quite often a war most Americans had never seen the point in fighting in the first place) is that American public opinion at home rapidly grows war weary when the swift, easy victory they anticipate is not acheived, Then the political pressure on their government to quit becomes irrestible.

If you are relying on the Yanks to "save" your country it makes them a fickle, unreliable ally. Just ask any of the Vietnamese "boat people" refugees who fled their country in the aftermath of Communist victory.

Cassowary, please take careful note!

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cassowary
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Re: Some Chinese want to retake Vladivostok

Post by cassowary » Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:36 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:24 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:47 am
Doc wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:34 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:36 am
I would just remind some of you that a Chinese peasant's army, poorly equipped, almost wiped out the US army in Korea, in the 50's... Short of a massive nuclear attack on China, the US doesn't have a chance in hell of winning a shooting war with China. But I suppose the "exceptionals" still believe in miracles...
Korea? As I recall the Chinese lost 30 solders to each US causality. Vietnam kicked CCP butt back in the 70's ANd just a few weeks ago the Indian army fought with CCP special forces in brutal hand to hand combat The CCP not only did not announce how many of its little princeling soldiers died but did not even have a burial ceremony to honor them lest the Chinese people found out how many of their single child soldiers died. But it is pretty apparent the the CCP once again got its butt kicked. Imagine how popular it would be among Chinese one child parents if their one child was killed. Imagine what kind of soldiers little princelings make. It is no wonder the CCP has given up making additional and inferior air craft carriers.
Don't be overconfident, Doc. Much as I hate the Communist Party of China, you must not underestimate the Chinese people.
I would advise the non-Chinese here to watch regularly the Chinese tv channel CGTN Documentary:

https://www.cgtn.com/channel/documentary

I do, regularly, and the last thing I would do would be underestimating China and the Chinese...
Yes. It is overconfidence that caused Clinton to allow China into the WTO. It is overconfidence that led them to believe that China will become a peaceful democracy because it is the best system. Democracy, though it started in Greece or India, is really a recent phenomena and it may disappear.

It was actually American GDP and its ideals that allowed it to reach its high water market at the end of the Cold War, when it defeated the USSR. But not China poses a tougher challenge for its GDP will soon outstrip that of its champion, the US.

It was the US that defeated the Kings and Emperors of Europe (the last bit of feudalism). It was the US that defeated Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan during Cold War. Its was the US that defeated the USSR during the Cold War. All that was made possible because the US had vastly higher GDP than its adversaries. With its high GDP, it could outgun and out spend its enemies.

But now that advantage is gone because China will soon have a higher GDP. Our only hope for the survival of democracy is India, which may take on the role as the arsenal of democracy. Only India can hope to rival China in term of GDP. But India lags behind China in economic development. Why?

It is because democracy is hampering its growth. A democracy's weakness is because of its short term outlook created by its periodic elections and its inability of taking painful but necessary decisions for the long term good. No pain, no gain as they say in sports. We must acknowledge its weaknesses and try to mitigate them if we are to preserve democracy.
The Imp :D

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cassowary
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Re: Some Chinese want to retake Vladivostok

Post by cassowary » Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:45 pm

neverfail wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:24 pm

If you are relying on the Yanks to "save" your country it makes them a fickle, unreliable ally. Just ask any of the Vietnamese "boat people" refugees who fled their country in the aftermath of Communist victory.

Cassowary, please take careful note!
Neverfail,

The Americans are the only game in town to save us from the Communist Chinese. If the US withdraws from Asia Pacific, let me predict what will happen to Australia.

Chinese businessmen, mostly related to top CCP officials like Xi and others will do business in Australia. The Australian government will give them sweetheart deals or bend regulations in their favor. Australians officials will be bribed and the government will not dare to prosecute them.

That is our fate, if America withdraws.
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: Some Chinese want to retake Vladivostok

Post by neverfail » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:59 pm

cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:45 pm
neverfail wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:24 pm

If you are relying on the Yanks to "save" your country it makes them a fickle, unreliable ally. Just ask any of the Vietnamese "boat people" refugees who fled their country in the aftermath of Communist victory.

Cassowary, please take careful note!
Neverfail,

The Americans are the only game in town to save us from the Communist Chinese. If the US withdraws from Asia Pacific, let me predict what will happen to Australia.

Chinese businessmen, mostly related to top CCP officials like Xi and others will do business in Australia. The Australian government will give them sweetheart deals or bend regulations in their favor. Australians officials will be bribed and the government will not dare to prosecute them.

That is our fate, if America withdraws.
I agree! Yet the track record of the USA of cutting and rumning when the going gets hot still speaks for itself; giving us no cause for confidence.

I notice that you did not post a dissenting view on this either - so you must agree.

neverfail
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Re: Some Chinese want to retake Vladivostok

Post by neverfail » Thu Jul 16, 2020 11:59 pm

You need a refresher course in history, Cassowary.
cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:36 pm

It was actually American GDP and its ideals that allowed it to reach its high water market at the end of the Cold War, when it defeated the USSR.
Defeat the USSR? It did not ever defeat it - it merely outlasted it. Not the same.

(I sometimes wonder for how much longer?)
But not China poses a tougher challenge for its GDP will soon outstrip that of its champion, the US.
Yes, but not only because of the matching size of its GDP. There are other factors at play such as superior powers of endurance (which Russians are also endowed with).
It was the US that defeated the Kings and Emperors of Europe.
They did not! That old Europe of kings and emperors self-destructed during the First World War with no help from the Americans (and forget about America's belated entry into WW1 - with the Russian revolution already underway that old royalist power structure was too far gone for US intervention to have had any effect either way).
It was the US that defeated Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan during Cold War.


( You mean the Second World War of course?) Imperial Japan, yes! The Yanks were as mad as hell after the Japanese bombed Peatrl Harbour. But it was the USSR that bore the brunt of the fighting against Nazi Germany and bled far more than the Soviet Union's allies in The West. Having stated that: without US backing there could never have been a project the size and scale of the Allied seaborne invasion of mainland Europe via Normandy, 1944. Had it not been for the opening of that second front who knows how the war between the USSR and Nazi Europe would have ended? Possibly in a stalemate.
Only India can hope to rival China in term of GDP. But India lags behind China in economic development. Why?

It is because democracy is hampering its growth. A democracy's weakness is because of its short term outlook created by its periodic elections and its inability of taking painful but necessary decisions for the long term good. No pain, no gain as they say in sports. We must acknowledge its weaknesses and try to mitigate them if we are to preserve democracy.
I absolutely disagree with that. It has nothing to do with elected governments (and aspirant ones) being periodically called to account to the voters and everything to do with the CHARACTER of those entrusted with government. Sometimes you get duds propelled into high elected office. An elected leader who is able to command public respect can usually look forward to a long spell in government and therefore it is likely that long term planning can be undertaken (and in supoport of that view I recall how in the case of my own country the Labor government led by Bob Hawke undertook politically risky structural reforms of our economy in the 1980's that were not destined to be popular with everyone; but he and colleagues had sufficdient empathy with Australian voters to convince us that the reforms were needed and we should stay the course. The Hawke government went on to enjoy several successive parliamentary terms in office - a record for the Australian Labor party.)

You may have focused your attention on US politics too much over the years - but who made thye silly suggestion that the likes of Clinton, Bush 2, Obama orr Trump were ever big on strength of character?

".......taking painful but necessary decisions for the long term good". Any decisions for the long term good that take place within the Peoples Republic of China I suggest would be closely geared up to the long term continuation of the POWER monopoly of the ruling partty. That ruling party is non-accountable for its deeds to the general public.


Because in the United States government has for unclear reasons become unaccountable does not mean that the principle of democracy is void. It only means that over there it has become errant.
................................................................................................................

Having stated all of that I have doubts of my own about the direction that india is moving in.

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Sertorio
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Re: Some Chinese want to retake Vladivostok

Post by Sertorio » Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:53 am

cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:36 pm

It was the US that defeated Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan during Cold War.
For 80% it was the Soviet Union, as far as Germany is concerned.

Image

neverfail
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Re: Some Chinese want to retake Vladivostok

Post by neverfail » Fri Jul 17, 2020 3:38 am

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 2:53 am
cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:36 pm

It was the US that defeated Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan during Cold War.
For 80% it was the Soviet Union, as far as Germany is concerned.

Image
No wonder! For the Russians it was literally a life or death struggle.

Nazi doctrine tragged Russians and all other Slavs as sub-humans; fit only to be exterminated to make way for the pure Aryan master race - themselves. By comparison, towards the British and other Germanic peoples their plans for the future were downright merciful.
........................................................................................................................

Now, should the Russians hand Vladivostok over to the Russians?

Considering that the port and surrounding region were never a traditional province of China but former territory of the Manchu nation who eventually conquered China I would say "no".

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cassowary
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Re: Some Chinese want to retake Vladivostok

Post by cassowary » Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:29 am

neverfail wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:59 pm
cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:45 pm
neverfail wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:24 pm

If you are relying on the Yanks to "save" your country it makes them a fickle, unreliable ally. Just ask any of the Vietnamese "boat people" refugees who fled their country in the aftermath of Communist victory.

Cassowary, please take careful note!
Neverfail,

The Americans are the only game in town to save us from the Communist Chinese. If the US withdraws from Asia Pacific, let me predict what will happen to Australia.

Chinese businessmen, mostly related to top CCP officials like Xi and others will do business in Australia. The Australian government will give them sweetheart deals or bend regulations in their favor. Australians officials will be bribed and the government will not dare to prosecute them.

That is our fate, if America withdraws.
I agree! Yet the track record of the USA of cutting and rumning when the going gets hot still speaks for itself; giving us no cause for confidence.

I notice that you did not post a dissenting view on this either - so you must agree.
Yes, you are right. Americans can only last about 10 years before the home front gives up. What do you expect? America is a democracy and it cannot do anything unpopular for long. That’s a weakness that dictatorships don’t have. Remember that.

But Americans have shown time and again, a willingness to sacrifice blood and treasure for its democratic and humane ideals. It need not have entered the Korean War or Vietnam War. But it did. Which other country would have done that?

And it was not a total failure. America saved South Korea and SE Asia from communism/socialism.
The Imp :D

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Sertorio
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Re: Some Chinese want to retake Vladivostok

Post by Sertorio » Fri Jul 17, 2020 8:26 am

cassowary wrote:
Fri Jul 17, 2020 7:29 am
neverfail wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:59 pm
cassowary wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:45 pm
neverfail wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 4:24 pm

If you are relying on the Yanks to "save" your country it makes them a fickle, unreliable ally. Just ask any of the Vietnamese "boat people" refugees who fled their country in the aftermath of Communist victory.

Cassowary, please take careful note!
Neverfail,

The Americans are the only game in town to save us from the Communist Chinese. If the US withdraws from Asia Pacific, let me predict what will happen to Australia.

Chinese businessmen, mostly related to top CCP officials like Xi and others will do business in Australia. The Australian government will give them sweetheart deals or bend regulations in their favor. Australians officials will be bribed and the government will not dare to prosecute them.

That is our fate, if America withdraws.
I agree! Yet the track record of the USA of cutting and rumning when the going gets hot still speaks for itself; giving us no cause for confidence.

I notice that you did not post a dissenting view on this either - so you must agree.
Yes, you are right. Americans can only last about 10 years before the home front gives up. What do you expect? America is a democracy and it cannot do anything unpopular for long. That’s a weakness that dictatorships don’t have. Remember that.

But Americans have shown time and again, a willingness to sacrifice blood and treasure for its democratic and humane ideals. It need not have entered the Korean War or Vietnam War. But it did. Which other country would have done that?

And it was not a total failure. America saved South Korea and SE Asia from communism/socialism.
The only reason the US ever goes to war is simply this: the expected loot!...

Whether directly by taking or controlling other peoples resources, or indirectly by the sale of weapons...

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