Some Chinese want to retake Vladivostok

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cassowary
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Some Chinese want to retake Vladivostok

Post by cassowary » Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:02 am

Why Russia’s Vladivostok celebration prompted a nationalist backlash in China
The modern-day territory of Primorsky Krai, whose capital is Vladivostok, was formerly part of the Qing’s Manchurian homeland but was annexed by the Tsarist empire in 1860 following China’s defeat at the hands of Britain and France in the second opium war.

It was handed over under one of three “unequal” treaties China was forced to sign with Russia, France and Britain that year, in an agreement that also saw the Kowloon peninsula being added to the colony of Hong Kong.

When the Russian embassy posted a video on Weibo of a party held on Thursday to celebrate the 160th anniversary of the founding of the city, whose name means “ruler of the east” in Russian, it prompted an online backlash.
So far, recovery of lost Chinese territory in the 19th century is not official Chinese policy. China needs Russia to counter America, Japan and India. But when Russia is no longer needed, ...
Zhang Heqing, a Chinese diplomat working in the embassy in Pakistan, commented “isn’t this what in the past was our Haishenwai?”, referring to the Chinese name for the area before its annexation.
Meanwhile, one Weibo user posted: “Today we can only endure, but the Chinese people will remember, and one generation after another will continue to remember!” and another wrote “We must believe that this ancestral land will return home in the future!”
If I were Putin, I would start to worry.

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China is like Germany during the 1920s and 1930s. Humiliated by the outcome of WWI, they sought national redemption. China feels humiliated by events in the 19th century. This humiliation is kept alive by the CCP to unify the people.
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Jim the Moron
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Re: Some Chinese want to retake Vladivostok

Post by Jim the Moron » Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:40 am

cassowary wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:02 am
Why Russia’s Vladivostok celebration prompted a nationalist backlash in China
The modern-day territory of Primorsky Krai, whose capital is Vladivostok, was formerly part of the Qing’s Manchurian homeland but was annexed by the Tsarist empire in 1860 following China’s defeat at the hands of Britain and France in the second opium war.

It was handed over under one of three “unequal” treaties China was forced to sign with Russia, France and Britain that year, in an agreement that also saw the Kowloon peninsula being added to the colony of Hong Kong.

When the Russian embassy posted a video on Weibo of a party held on Thursday to celebrate the 160th anniversary of the founding of the city, whose name means “ruler of the east” in Russian, it prompted an online backlash.
So far, recovery of lost Chinese territory in the 19th century is not official Chinese policy. China needs Russia to counter America, Japan and India. But when Russia is no longer needed, ...
Zhang Heqing, a Chinese diplomat working in the embassy in Pakistan, commented “isn’t this what in the past was our Haishenwai?”, referring to the Chinese name for the area before its annexation.
Meanwhile, one Weibo user posted: “Today we can only endure, but the Chinese people will remember, and one generation after another will continue to remember!” and another wrote “We must believe that this ancestral land will return home in the future!”
If I were Putin, I would start to worry.

.......................................................................................................................

China is like Germany during the 1920s and 1930s. Humiliated by the outcome of WWI, they sought national redemption. China feels humiliated by events in the 19th century. This humiliation is kept alive by the CCP to unify the people.

Interesting - did some checking. While the majority of folks in Vladivostok are ethnic Russian, a significant minority (22%) is ethnic Chinese . . .

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Sertorio
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Re: Some Chinese want to retake Vladivostok

Post by Sertorio » Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:06 pm

The Chinese are not stupid. They know the difference between possible and unlikely. Wishful thinking is a western trait, not a Chinese one...

neverfail
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Re: Manchu invasion like the Opium Wars exposed Chinese weakness.

Post by neverfail » Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:31 pm

cassowary wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:02 am
Why Russia’s Vladivostok celebration prompted a nationalist backlash in China
The modern-day territory of Primorsky Krai, whose capital is Vladivostok, was formerly part of the Qing’s Manchurian homeland but was annexed by the Tsarist empire in 1860 following China’s defeat at the hands of Britain and France in the second opium war.
That's the point that Chinese nationalists (with their heads jammed up their backsides full of unwonted pride?) miss. It was NOT the Chinese (which it to say the ethnic Han) who brought the Vlavivostik region (along with other Manchu territory such as Manchuria and the Amur floodplain) into their Empire but the exact opposite: the Manchu who through invasion and conquest brought China into their Empire.

It all happened because a failed dynastic succession to the Ming imperial throne led to civil war within in China. With no more Ming emperor on the throne to be loyal to the general in charge of the Chinese garrison at the manchuria section of the Great Wall opened the gates to let in the Manchu horde - in order to restore order to his fractured homeland.

Recalling that the Han had a history of regarding the Manchu inhabitants of the lands beyond their Great Wall as "foreign barbarians" (like the Mongols before them) and therefore much their inferiors, I would suggest that the first of China's legendary humuliations was not the 1839-40 loss of the first Opium War to Britain but that Manchu invasion and conquest.

As with Britain's victories during the Opium Wars it did not reflect the brute strength of the foreign protaginist but rather the weakness of China. But of course instead of facing up to facts like that modern Chinese nationalists seem to have airbrushed out of their history that in 1644 they had been done over by a numerically smaller but aggressively much more capable nation of foreignors. Bogus pride!


.......................................................................................................................
cassowary wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:02 am
China is like Germany during the 1920s and 1930s. Humiliated by the outcome of WWI, they sought national redemption. China feels humiliated by events in the 19th century. This humiliation is kept alive by the CCP to unify the people.
No argument there Cass. I would suggest that if the CCP needs to stoke up a sense of grudge and grievance against foreignors in order to maintain national unity then the unity of the Chinese nation must be rather ccontrived - like their claim to the Vladivostok region and other former Manchu lands outside China's bounds.

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(A rumination) The Manchu's still exist but as an ethnic group of around 10 million lost within China's mass of 1.4 billion. Their past as conquerers of "mighty" China nought but faded dreams of past glories. Ironically. it might have been the Manchus who conquered China at a time of Chinese weakness but it was China that ultimately absorbed the Manchu. (moral to story?) He who invades and conquers China sips from a poisoned chalice?

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Doc
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Re: Some Chinese want to retake Vladivostok

Post by Doc » Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:23 pm

cassowary wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:02 am
Why Russia’s Vladivostok celebration prompted a nationalist backlash in China
The modern-day territory of Primorsky Krai, whose capital is Vladivostok, was formerly part of the Qing’s Manchurian homeland but was annexed by the Tsarist empire in 1860 following China’s defeat at the hands of Britain and France in the second opium war.

It was handed over under one of three “unequal” treaties China was forced to sign with Russia, France and Britain that year, in an agreement that also saw the Kowloon peninsula being added to the colony of Hong Kong.

When the Russian embassy posted a video on Weibo of a party held on Thursday to celebrate the 160th anniversary of the founding of the city, whose name means “ruler of the east” in Russian, it prompted an online backlash.
So far, recovery of lost Chinese territory in the 19th century is not official Chinese policy. China needs Russia to counter America, Japan and India. But when Russia is no longer needed, ...
Zhang Heqing, a Chinese diplomat working in the embassy in Pakistan, commented “isn’t this what in the past was our Haishenwai?”, referring to the Chinese name for the area before its annexation.
Meanwhile, one Weibo user posted: “Today we can only endure, but the Chinese people will remember, and one generation after another will continue to remember!” and another wrote “We must believe that this ancestral land will return home in the future!”
If I were Putin, I would start to worry.

.......................................................................................................................

China is like Germany during the 1920s and 1930s. Humiliated by the outcome of WWI, they sought national redemption. China feels humiliated by events in the 19th century. This humiliation is kept alive by the CCP to unify the people.
Oh most definitely. The parallels are stark. Loyalty to the party Loyalty to the supreme god like leader. But a lot of the CHinese nationalism is from a couple generations of little princes that grew up getting whatever they wanted. The CCP is on that wave for the ride.

The big difference is the CCP knows it won't win a shooting war at this time. So it is going for a cold asymmetric war by any other means including civilian It believe it will win this war because US institutions are weak and not capable of fighting a new cold war. The outcome of such a cold war will most likely come down which other countries in the war believe the CCP is right in its belief on this.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

neverfail
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Re: Some Chinese want to retake Vladivostok

Post by neverfail » Wed Jul 15, 2020 11:29 pm

Doc wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 9:23 pm

The big difference is the CCP knows it won't win a shooting war at this time. So it is going for a cold asymmetric war by any other means including civilian It believe it will win this war because US institutions are weak and not capable of fighting a new cold war. The outcome of such a cold war will most likely come down which other countries in the war believe the CCP is right in its belief on this.
Win a "shooting" war? If the contest turned thermonuclear then I agree absolutely - the USA has enough warheads and delivery systems to wipe even China off the map whereas with its nuclear arsenal the PRC would be lucky to take out 3 or 4 mainland US cities (all most likely on your west coast) along with a similar number of offshore military bases including Okinawa and Guam. But if by "shooting war" you mean a long, WW2 style of conventional war I would not bet on an American victory.

It may not come down to that. I am (as you would be aware from my posts) appalled by the poor character of the men you Americans elect as presidents; especially since the beginning of this century. Obama was thoroughly irresolute: America's rivals abroad could detect that and made bold to take advantage of that character flaw. It is not by accident or coincidence that the PRC grab for the South China Sea and Putin's annexation of Crimea to the Russian Federation both occurred during Obama's "watch".

Trump? An empty vessel who makes a lot of noise. An incumbent in high office who amply demonstrated his incapacity to lead in his approach (don't mention it too me - I am much more concerned about my re-election prospects) to the Covid-19 epidemic. Could a man like either of them ever make a convincing wartime leader?

Without needing to fire a shot the PRC could win by default.

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Sertorio
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Re: Some Chinese want to retake Vladivostok

Post by Sertorio » Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:36 am

I would just remind some of you that a Chinese peasant's army, poorly equipped, almost wiped out the US army in Korea, in the 50's... Short of a massive nuclear attack on China, the US doesn't have a chance in hell of winning a shooting war with China. But I suppose the "exceptionals" still believe in miracles...

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Doc
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Re: Some Chinese want to retake Vladivostok

Post by Doc » Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:34 am

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:36 am
I would just remind some of you that a Chinese peasant's army, poorly equipped, almost wiped out the US army in Korea, in the 50's... Short of a massive nuclear attack on China, the US doesn't have a chance in hell of winning a shooting war with China. But I suppose the "exceptionals" still believe in miracles...
Korea? As I recall the Chinese lost 30 solders to each US causality. Vietnam kicked CCP butt back in the 70's ANd just a few weeks ago the Indian army fought with CCP special forces in brutal hand to hand combat The CCP not only did not announce how many of its little princeling soldiers died but did not even have a burial ceremony to honor them lest the Chinese people found out how many of their single child soldiers died. But it is pretty apparent the the CCP once again got its butt kicked. Imagine how popular it would be among Chinese one child parents if their one child was killed. Imagine what kind of soldiers little princelings make. It is no wonder the CCP has given up making additional and inferior air craft carriers.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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cassowary
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Re: Manchu invasion like the Opium Wars exposed Chinese weakness.

Post by cassowary » Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:44 am

neverfail wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 4:31 pm
cassowary wrote:
Wed Jul 15, 2020 8:02 am
Why Russia’s Vladivostok celebration prompted a nationalist backlash in China
The modern-day territory of Primorsky Krai, whose capital is Vladivostok, was formerly part of the Qing’s Manchurian homeland but was annexed by the Tsarist empire in 1860 following China’s defeat at the hands of Britain and France in the second opium war.
That's the point that Chinese nationalists (with their heads jammed up their backsides full of unwonted pride?) miss. It was NOT the Chinese (which it to say the ethnic Han) who brought the Vlavivostik region (along with other Manchu territory such as Manchuria and the Amur floodplain) into their Empire but the exact opposite: the Manchu who through invasion and conquest brought China into their Empire.
What you said is perfectly correct. But my understanding is that the CCP has rewritten their own history. They don't teach their children that Manchuria was a foreign country that invaded and conquered China. Manchuria is a part of China. So there was no foreign conquest. It was one part of China conquering the rest of China.

Hence, the surrender of Manchu lands to Russia in 1860 was the surrender of Chinese lands.

For the Chinese regime, history is always rewritten to serve the political needs of today. It seems to me that leftist academics are also doing that in America.
The Imp :D

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cassowary
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Re: Some Chinese want to retake Vladivostok

Post by cassowary » Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:47 am

Doc wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 6:34 am
Sertorio wrote:
Thu Jul 16, 2020 1:36 am
I would just remind some of you that a Chinese peasant's army, poorly equipped, almost wiped out the US army in Korea, in the 50's... Short of a massive nuclear attack on China, the US doesn't have a chance in hell of winning a shooting war with China. But I suppose the "exceptionals" still believe in miracles...
Korea? As I recall the Chinese lost 30 solders to each US causality. Vietnam kicked CCP butt back in the 70's ANd just a few weeks ago the Indian army fought with CCP special forces in brutal hand to hand combat The CCP not only did not announce how many of its little princeling soldiers died but did not even have a burial ceremony to honor them lest the Chinese people found out how many of their single child soldiers died. But it is pretty apparent the the CCP once again got its butt kicked. Imagine how popular it would be among Chinese one child parents if their one child was killed. Imagine what kind of soldiers little princelings make. It is no wonder the CCP has given up making additional and inferior air craft carriers.
Don't be overconfident, Doc. Much as I hate the Communist Party of China, you must not underestimate the Chinese people.
The Imp :D

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