US should diplomatically recognize Taiwan: Bolton

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neverfail
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US should diplomatically recognize Taiwan: Bolton

Post by neverfail » Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:33 pm

https://asiatimes.com/2020/07/us-should ... an-bolton/

Bolton, who served under President Donald Trump between 2018 and 2019, spoke during an online seminar on Thursday. He suggested that the current US administration could be more willing than ever to elevate the status of the self-governed island.

He said the US should exert heavy pressure on China, including by giving full diplomatic recognition to Taiwan, to counter Beijing’s contention that the island is a renegade province pending reunification with the mainland either through negotiation or invasion.
Exactly!

The PRC ruling party has a long past history of insisting that any foreign country that wants to enter into diplomatic relations with their country must recognise Taiwan as part of China. So many countries were so keen to enter into diplomatic ties in those days that they treated the repudiation of ties with Taipei as a small, even miscule, price to pay for the privelege.

With PRC policy now on thw whole turning rogue is it not time to take a second look at that?

More than one can play the game of diplomatic blackmail. Perhaps its time to teach the PRC government the lesson that you cannot expect have it all your own way every time.

I have never seen anything wrong with having Taiwan as a seperate soverignty to the PRC: on condition that it repudiates all claim to being the government of China.

In place of its traditional intolerance towards the island; is it not time to "educate" the PRC government to live at peace in equinimity with a small country of Chinese heritage next door?

If German speaking Germany can live next to German speaking Austria and English speaking Britain next to the English speaking Republic of Ireland like that, then why can't it work re. Chuina and Taiwan?

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Sertorio
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Re: US should diplomatically recognize Taiwan: Bolton

Post by Sertorio » Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:53 am

neverfail wrote:
Thu Jul 09, 2020 11:33 pm
https://asiatimes.com/2020/07/us-should ... an-bolton/

Bolton, who served under President Donald Trump between 2018 and 2019, spoke during an online seminar on Thursday. He suggested that the current US administration could be more willing than ever to elevate the status of the self-governed island.

He said the US should exert heavy pressure on China, including by giving full diplomatic recognition to Taiwan, to counter Beijing’s contention that the island is a renegade province pending reunification with the mainland either through negotiation or invasion.
Exactly!

The PRC ruling party has a long past history of insisting that any foreign country that wants to enter into diplomatic relations with their country must recognise Taiwan as part of China. So many countries were so keen to enter into diplomatic ties in those days that they treated the repudiation of ties with Taipei as a small, even miscule, price to pay for the privelege.

With PRC policy now on thw whole turning rogue is it not time to take a second look at that?

More than one can play the game of diplomatic blackmail. Perhaps its time to teach the PRC government the lesson that you cannot expect have it all your own way every time.

I have never seen anything wrong with having Taiwan as a seperate soverignty to the PRC: on condition that it repudiates all claim to being the government of China.

In place of its traditional intolerance towards the island; is it not time to "educate" the PRC government to live at peace in equinimity with a small country of Chinese heritage next door?

If German speaking Germany can live next to German speaking Austria and English speaking Britain next to the English speaking Republic of Ireland like that, then why can't it work re. Chuina and Taiwan?
Most countries, including the US - and Australia - have recognized Taiwan as part of China. Which means that the legal and sovereign government of China in Beijing has the right to rule over Taiwan, under any modality it wishes. The US cannot try and prevent China from exerting its sovereign rights over part of its territory. Diplomatically recognizing Taiwan would be a violation of international law and an aggressive action against China. What would stop China - or any country - giving diplomatic recognition to Hawaii or Alaska?... This is just another example of the systematic American provocation of China, hoping it will react militarily and thus give the US an excuse to try and destroy China's influence. The US is persistently in violation of the charter of the UN and will be guilty of engaging in illegal warfare if it continues provoking China. And the worst part - for the US - is that China may actually militarily defeat the US in Asia...

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Re: US should diplomatically recognize Taiwan: Bolton

Post by neverfail » Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:43 am

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:53 am

Most countries, including the US - and Australia - have recognized Taiwan as part of China. Which means that the legal and sovereign government of China in Beijing has the right to rule over Taiwan, under any modality it wishes. The US cannot try and prevent China from exerting its sovereign rights over part of its territory. Diplomatically recognizing Taiwan would be a violation of international law and an aggressive action against China. What would stop China - or any country - giving diplomatic recognition to Hawaii or Alaska?... This is just another example of the systematic American provocation of China, hoping it will react militarily and thus give the US an excuse to try and destroy China's influence. The US is persistently in violation of the charter of the UN and will be guilty of engaging in illegal warfare if it continues provoking China. And the worst part - for the US - is that China may actually militarily defeat the US in Asia...
I hope that you are aware that in 1949 Taiwan became the safehaven and refuge for what was then the internationally recognised government of China (led by Chiang Kai Check) even as the rebels violently and no doubt illegally seized power on the mainland. The fact that so many countries including my own went on to confer a faux-respectability on that usurper government by recognising it speaks of the widespread moral cowardice among governments worldwide. Are we supposed to believe now that the island on which the dispossessed government of yore found refuge is less worthy of international recognition than the one on the mainland that the red bandits took over?

My argument for recognition of Taiwan has nothing to do with American global power politics and everything to do with MERIT (ever heard of it?) . The point being that Taiwan has since Chiang's death politically evolved into a stable, functioning democracy respectful of rule of law whereas mainland China shows absolutely no sign of evolving along the same path. Since Chiang's time Taiwan has been innocent of any brutal, blood soaked event like the Tienanmin Square massacre (among the PRC government's many other acts of ruthless repression).

There is nothing in international law that forbids nations from having diplomatic ties with Taipei (over a dozen still do) so please spare us your bogus recourse to legalism. Taiwan is everythinmg that mainland China is not. On the basis of merit it deserves international recognition and support far more than the PRC does.
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P.S. Within your own and my own lifespan your country Portugal was an autocracy ruled by a political strongman that many have described as a dictator. But midway along it underwent a largely peaceful people's revoltuion that propelled it into becoming a democracy. Your preference for the Beijing regime over the Taipei one leads me to speculate that you would prefer your country to regress backwards to the time and regime of Salazar than to persevere with the better regime of government that has superceded and replaced his since.

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Sertorio
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Re: US should diplomatically recognize Taiwan: Bolton

Post by Sertorio » Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:40 am

neverfail wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:43 am
Within your own and my own lifespan your country Portugal was an autocracy ruled by a political strongman that many have described as a dictator. But midway along it underwent a largely peaceful people's revoltuion that propelled it into becoming a democracy. Your preference for the Beijing regime over the Taipei one leads me to speculate that you would prefer your country to regress backwards to the time and regime of Salazar than to persevere with the better regime of government that has superceded and replaced his since.
Our revolution and freeing from a dictatorship was due exclusively to our own efforts, and we did not need the intrusion of any third party to achieve our objectives. Any people, whether Chinese or American can do the same, and no country should interfere in their affairs. I do not prefer the Beijing regime over Taipei's, because it's not up to me to have any preferences in respect of other people's affairs. But I prefer a China capable of resisting US imperialism, to a Taipei submitted to the American diktat. Just as I would prefer an independent Australia capable of a normal relationship with China, than an Australia willing to foster American illegitimate interests in Asia.

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Milo
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Re: US should diplomatically recognize Taiwan: Bolton

Post by Milo » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:50 am

Let's not forget that Bolton has a book to sell, and few career options with the government anymore.

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Re: US should diplomatically recognize Taiwan: Bolton

Post by neverfail » Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:31 pm

Milo wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:50 am
Let's not forget that Bolton has a book to sell, and few career options with the government anymore.
Whivh does not mean that the proposal is necessarily such a bad one, Milo.

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Re: US should diplomatically recognize Taiwan: Bolton

Post by Milo » Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:27 pm

neverfail wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:31 pm
Milo wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:50 am
Let's not forget that Bolton has a book to sell, and few career options with the government anymore.
Whivh does not mean that the proposal is necessarily such a bad one, Milo.
I think it's a good one.

I think the folly of treating too freely with dictatorships is now plain and obvious, if it was ever not. The mature democracies of the world should stiffen up a bit about it.

Taiwan has worked hard to become prosperous and free and they deserve better than to be second class to China, which is less than half of that.

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Sertorio
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Re: US should diplomatically recognize Taiwan: Bolton

Post by Sertorio » Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:59 pm

Milo wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:27 pm
neverfail wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 1:31 pm
Milo wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:50 am
Let's not forget that Bolton has a book to sell, and few career options with the government anymore.
Whivh does not mean that the proposal is necessarily such a bad one, Milo.
I think it's a good one.

I think the folly of treating too freely with dictatorships is now plain and obvious, if it was ever not. The mature democracies of the world should stiffen up a bit about it.

Taiwan has worked hard to become prosperous and free and they deserve better than to be second class to China, which is less than half of that.
Mature democracies?... Well, that excludes the US...

neverfail
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Re: US should diplomatically recognize Taiwan: Bolton

Post by neverfail » Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:14 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 6:40 am
neverfail wrote:
Fri Jul 10, 2020 5:43 am
Within your own and my own lifespan your country Portugal was an autocracy ruled by a political strongman that many have described as a dictator. But midway along it underwent a largely peaceful people's revoltuion that propelled it into becoming a democracy. Your preference for the Beijing regime over the Taipei one leads me to speculate that you would prefer your country to regress backwards to the time and regime of Salazar than to persevere with the better regime of government that has superceded and replaced his since.
Our revolution and freeing from a dictatorship was due exclusively to our own efforts, and we did not need the intrusion of any third party to achieve our objectives. Any people, whether Chinese or American can do the same, and no country should interfere in their affairs. I do not prefer the Beijing regime over Taipei's, because it's not up to me to have any preferences in respect of other people's affairs. But I prefer a China capable of resisting US imperialism, to a Taipei submitted to the American diktat. Just as I would prefer an independent Australia capable of a normal relationship with China, than an Australia willing to foster American illegitimate interests in Asia.
I just cannot understand how an apparently intelligent person like you could be so unmindful of them geostrategic context within which Portugal's and Spains transformation from autocracies into modern democratic states came about. Do you really believe that it would have happened had the USSR pale of command reached the Atlantic coast of Europe in the years immediately after the end of the Second World War - as Stalin's empire made every effort short of open warfare to do? Of course not! Any upheaval in Iberia or elsewhere would have resulted in yet more sad and sorry one party tyrannies in thrall to Moscow just like Poland, Czeckoslovakia and Hungary.

When "the people" took to the streets in both Lisbon and Madrid back in the 1970's to push for the transformation of their countries into modetrn democratic states I take note of the fact that the posture of the United States was one of non-interference (despite the fact that in the case of Portugal the local Communist party initially became a significent player in the politics of your newly democratic homeland).

Oh Sertorio: would you cease being such a PROUD European and summons up enough humulity (i.e. soundness of judgement) to acknowledge the moral indebitedness of Europe to the United States for having devoted decades (at risk to itself of thermonuclear obliterration by and from the USSR the whole time) in sheltering the western side of your European subcontinent from becoming nothing but a sad and sorry clutch of Stalinist tyrannies?
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On the other side of the World the US role in the western Pacific/eastern Asia rim is likewise one of maintaining the power balance . Until the end of the 1980's the balance was to match that of the USSR but today it is containment of the equally overweening global power ambitions of the PRC.

I consider that particular US interest in the region to be a perfectly legetimate one.

Do you truly believe that rule by the CCP represents the will of the Chinese people? :lol: They might tolerate it because they can do nothing to dislodge it and in any case there has been enough improvement in living conditions there to mitigate public discontent. Which does not make one party rule by the CCP good news for the rest of us. Historically, the CCP came to power as the consequence of a long and bloody civil war and as such represents another winner-take-all gaining of power by CONQUEST: just like the earlier gaining of power and imposition of their ways after the post-Bolshevik red triumph that came about at the end of the 1918-1923 Russian Civil War.

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Re: US should diplomatically recognize Taiwan: Bolton

Post by Doc » Sat Jul 11, 2020 8:46 am

Make it a threat if the CCP invades Taiwan The US and much of the world will consider the CCP the illegitimate government and China and recognize Taiwan as China's legitimate government **might** deter a war.
“"I fancied myself as some kind of god....It is a sort of disease when you consider yourself some kind of god, the creator of everything, but I feel comfortable about it now since I began to live it out.” -- George Soros

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