The most arrogant people in Australia....

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neverfail
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Re: The most arrogant people in Australia....

Post by neverfail » Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:43 pm

cassowary wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:18 am
Exactly Neverfail. I agree that modern life is still better than the hunter-gatherer lifestyle. Even at a life expectancy of 40 to 45, this is far short of our modern life expectancy. Modern Australians can expect to live to 80 to 84.5 years.
(quote) " Life expectancy has hit a new high, with typical newborn girls now expected to live to 84.5 and boys to 80.4, up from 83.3 and 78.5 a decade ago.

(SNIP)

Indigenous life expectancies at birth are 9.5 years lower for girls and 10.6 years lower for boys".
(unquote)
...................................................................................................................

This means that for indigenous Australians life expectancy are currently 75 years for girls and 69.8 for boys: much better than I had previously thought.

The earlier figure of 55 years I quoted you as indigenous life expectancy is several years out of date. Either I was misinformed then or else for longevity our Aboriginals have done a remarkable catch-up in the interim years.

Cassowary, I hope you will understand that we now live with a sense of moral indebtedness now that we have come to the realization that the British colonization of our remarkable island-continent was an invasion of someone else's homeland by a foreign power. Even when I was a boy none of our school history texts even mentioned the word "invasion" - our latter day awareness has therefore come as a kind of "conversion on the road to Damascus". As victims of that cathartic change there is still work to be done yet in bringing these people fully into our Australian mainstream - a process likely to still take generations to come.

Never make the mistake of viewing policies aimed at bringing this about as being any triumph of left politics.

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cassowary
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Re: The most arrogant people in Australia....

Post by cassowary » Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:44 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:43 pm

Cassowary, I hope you will understand that we now live with a sense of moral indebtedness now that we have come to the realization that the British colonization of our remarkable island-continent was an invasion of someone else's homeland by a foreign power. Even when I was a boy none of our school history texts even mentioned the word "invasion" - our latter day awareness has therefore come as a kind of "conversion on the road to Damascus". As victims of that cathartic change there is still work to be done yet in bringing these people fully into our Australian mainstream - a process likely to still take generations to come.

Never make the mistake of viewing policies aimed at bringing this about as being any triumph of left politics.
Stop this leftist nonsense, Neverfail.

Australia was practically empty. Yes, there were indigenes there. But they were so few. Even if you are right that it was an invasion rather than a migration, that was so long ago done by people long dead to a people also long dead. Why should modern-day Australians have to feel guilty?

neverfail
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Re: The most arrogant people in Australia....

Post by neverfail » Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:43 pm

cassowary wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:44 pm


Australia was practically empty. Yes, there were indigenes there. But they were so few. Even if you are right that it was an invasion rather than a migration, that was so long ago done by people long dead to a people also long dead. Why should modern-day Australians have to feel guilty?
It was both an invasion and a mass migration.

Not so much a guilt complex as a sense of responsibility for the ongoing consequences.

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cassowary
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Re: The most arrogant people in Australia....

Post by cassowary » Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:15 pm

neverfail wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:43 pm
cassowary wrote:
Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:44 pm


Australia was practically empty. Yes, there were indigenes there. But they were so few. Even if you are right that it was an invasion rather than a migration, that was so long ago done by people long dead to a people also long dead. Why should modern-day Australians have to feel guilty?
It was both an invasion and a mass migration.

Not so much a guilt complex as a sense of responsibility for the ongoing consequences.
Whether it was an invasion or a mass migration, you are not responsible because it was done so long ago by people long dead. The aborigines are not people who do not have a mind of their own. If they are poor today, it is also their own fault. I don't read much about Australia. But my guess is that they are somewhat like the Malays in Malaysia, whom Dr M said were lazy and dishonest.

People have suffered calamities and recovered. The Jews suffered the Holocaust but today they are doing well both in Israel as well as in Gentile countries. The Japanese suffered two nuclear bombs but today Japan has recovered and is prosperous.

What this suggests to me is that if the aborigines are in bad shape today, it is not because of the invasion or migration but mainly due to their own deficiencies. The invasion or migration took place so long ago. They should have recovered from it. That the aborigines have not is likely due to some cultural flaws that they have.

You must not treat the Aborigines as though they are people that do not have responsibility for themselves. They are not like our pet dogs and cats whom we must take care of. Treating them as such is a worse insult than me saying that they probably have cultural flaws.

neverfail
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Re: The most arrogant people in Australia....

Post by neverfail » Sat Sep 23, 2017 4:17 am

cassowary wrote:
Tue Sep 19, 2017 6:15 pm

People have suffered calamities and recovered. The Japanese suffered two nuclear bombs but today Japan has recovered and is prosperous.
Invalid comparison, cassowary.

The Japanese were never dispossessed of their country and then forced to live for generations as a minority encased in someone else's alien culture under terms and conditions determined by the conqueror.

As an Aussie I hate to admit this but our Aboriginals were not given a fair go. After being deprived of their traditional hunting, fishing and gathering grounds they were then herded on to what out here was defined as "missions" (i.e.tribal reservations). These missions were not extensive lands where they might have otherwise learned tom make a decent subsistence (or even a semi-commercial) livelihood from such non-traditional activities as agriculture and/or animal husbandry. They were rarely much bigger than the sites of the villages of spartan housing constructed for them by the state government department/s charged with their supervision and care.

No malice intended towards them Cass. You see, indigenous Australians simply got in the way of "progress" and therefore had to be removed.

They could rarely go where they wanted to seek their fortunes but more often lived marooned under an unsympathetic police state mode of supervision.

They were left to rot like that for up to 3 successive generations. Do you not believe that this might have debilitated them in ways that it will take generations to outgrow?

In relation to the Aboriginals there are times when I ponder that the most arrogant people in Australia might have been us.

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cassowary
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Re: The most arrogant people in Australia....

Post by cassowary » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:10 am

Australians are descended mainly from British people, right? Well, the British did something similar in Hong Kong during the 19th century. Following the First Opium War in 1839, Hong Kong was ceded to the British. But the Chinese people prospered in Hong Kong.

So if the Chinese can prosper under the British empire, why couldn't the Aborigines? It is because their culture had some deficiencies. Why is it that the Chinese were not in the way of the British in Hong Kong? In fact, their labor was needed to help the British develop their colonies in Hong Kong, Singapore, and Malaya.

It is silly for modern Australians to take the blame for the wretched conditions of the Aborigines today. Firstly, you are not the ones who migrated/invaded Australia. The people responsible who did are long dead. Secondly, the Aborigines themselves had deficiencies, which hindered their progress. These need to be recognized if you really want to help them.

The Chinese and Japanese are not afraid to recognize that they may be lacking in some qualities that others have and so need to change. That is a sign of self-confidence and is necessary for progress.

Jim the Moron
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Re: The most arrogant people in Australia....

Post by Jim the Moron » Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:54 am

". . . the Aborigines themselves had deficiencies, which hindered their progress." Please be explicit, cass.

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cassowary
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Re: The most arrogant people in Australia....

Post by cassowary » Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:57 pm

Jim the Moron wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:54 am
". . . the Aborigines themselves had deficiencies, which hindered their progress." Please be explicit, cass.
Jim,

For one thing, Australian aborigines drink too much, even for Australians.
Indigenous Australians between the ages of 35 and 54 are up to eight times more likely to die than their peers, with alcohol abuse the main culprit, South Australian research has shown.
Alcoholism is a problem that the individual must solve for himself. He himself must make the effort. There is only so much the government can do for him.

High crime rate is another
Indigenous Australians commit crimes and are imprisoned at a disproportionately high rate in Australia. According to one source, there is "gross overrepresentation of Indigenous offenders at all stages of the criminal justice system".[1] The 2006 census documented that there are 455,031 Indigenous people, who are either Australian Aborigines or Torres Strait Islanders, in Australia, accounting for 2.3 percent of the population.

Australian Bureau of Statistics figures show that Indigenous Australians account for around 28% of Australia's prison population.[2] The Australian government and local Indigenous groups have responded to these trends with numerous programs and measures.

neverfail
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Re: The most arrogant people in Australia....

Post by neverfail » Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:05 am

cassowary wrote:
Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:10 am
Australians are descended mainly from British people, right? Well, the British did something similar in Hong Kong during the 19th century. Following the First Opium War in 1839, Hong Kong was ceded to the British. But the Chinese people prospered in Hong Kong.
Not a valid comparison cass. British settlers never outpopulated the Chinese in Hong Kong and therefore had to live with the Chinese and their ways.

You would also know as well as I that the Chinese were endowed with an infinately more advanced civilisation than the Australian Aboriginals.

Otherwise, I agree with everything else in your post.

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Milo
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Re: The most arrogant people in Australia....

Post by Milo » Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:10 am

I am a big fan of "Guns Germs and Steel" as an explanation for the rise of some cultures over others.

I do believe that cultural norms are also a factor but one can't have culture without a prosperous environment for it to develop in.

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