America does not need another Revolution

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Apollonius
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Re: America does not need another Revolution

Post by Apollonius » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:56 am

Neverfail,


Thanks for your thoughts.


Truth is, I am well acquainted with the history behind the treaties which culminated in the Indian Act.


For starters, I suspect that many non-Canadians are unaware that there was no equivalent to Indian removals or wars in this country.

A good book which highlights the differences in relations of indigenous peoples to the governments in Canada and the U.S. is Indians in the United States and Canada: A Comparative History by Roger L. Nichols (University of Nebraska Press, 2nd ed., 2018). In it the author manages to find one group of four or five Inuit families who were more or less forced to leave their isolated homes and consolidate into a 'village', which did at least allow for some aid and education to be brought their way.



Our indigenous peoples are organized into 'bands' not tribes as is usual in the U.S. This reflects the demography and the terminology used by anthropologists. The typical band has dozens of members, not hundreds or thousands. The largest pre-contact political unit in what is now Canada was often the head of a family and never anyone who lived in a different community, even one five miles away.



I've usually lived in places which had a significant Native population. That comes in part from having spent time in more northerly latitudes, but it's also a fact that all Canadian cities have Indian reserves right within the metropolitan areas. Since Indians were not removed and settled elsewhere, they were simply awarded lands right where they lived. Consequently some of the most valuable real estate in the country is owned by them.



In any case, let's not think of Canadian Indians as somehow having been conquered in any usual sense of the word. No wars. No destruction or removal of their communities. No servitude. In fact, most treaties provided for large acreages for heads of families, free education, free medical treatment, and much more.

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Apollonius
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Re: America does not need another Revolution

Post by Apollonius » Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:59 am

For the last thirty years Canadian native peoples (First Nations) and their progressive allies in academia, the media, with a supporting cast of politicians can speak of little else but residential schools.

These were formally set up in the 1880s but have their origins some decades before.


In Canada, the Indian residential school system was a network of boarding schools for Indigenous peoples. The network was funded by the Canadian government's Department of Indian Affairs and administered by Christian churches.

The school system was created for the purpose of removing children from the influence of their own culture and assimilating them into the dominant Canadian culture. Over the course of the system's more than hundred-year existence, about 30%, or roughly 150,000, of Indigenous children were placed in residential schools nationally. At least 6,000 of these students are estimated to have died while residents.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_ ... ool_system




No. The school system was created for the purpose of removing children from the abuse and neglect of parents who were slowly murdering their kids, the same reason that kids are removed from the care of families who cannot or will not properly take care of them today.

The number of children who died while under the care and supervision of residential schools is contentious and highly disputed. What is not in dispute is that mortality rates for all children were high 100 and more years ago. Further, it is an open question how many children that ended up in residential schools would have died had they not been taken out of situations where conditions were even much worse.



In Canada today, despite being less than 5% of the population, over 80% of foster children are Native. Especially after thirty years of nonstop bad publicity about residential schools, these days children are only removed when they are near death or the parents explicitly indicate that they cannot or will not take care of them. In those cases agencies seek first to find Native foster parents, but these are usually unavailable. For all the outrage, and even with generous subsidies, no one wants them.

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Apollonius
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Re: America does not need another Revolution

Post by Apollonius » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:11 am

Testimony resulting from investigations into the residential school system eventually led to the Report of the Royal Commission on Aboriginal Peoples (1996) and subsequent Commission for Truth and Reconciliation. Its recommendations have formed the basis of relations with First Nations ever since, including a Royal Commission on Murdered and Missing Indigenous Women from just a couple years ago which ultimately declared that though at least ninety percent of murdered indigenous women were murdered by indigenous men, it was 'genocide'.


And lately indigenous leaders have gone to the United Nations General Assembly to speak to a crowded audience of representatives from dozens of African and Middle Eastern countries run by larcenous dictators whose main operational mode consists of imprisonment, torture, and murder of opponents about human rights violations in Canada. Yes, we paid for First Nations leaders to go and voice their concerns to these fine people.




Well, by now some of us are tired of all this posturing and gross distortions of facts.



Personally, I'm all for giving Indians money. Lots of it. Apart from the contractors who build their homes and schools and hospitals and the government employees who teach and provide medical care for them, who else is going to live in northern Canada? And this country wastes billions of dollars every year. What's eight billion more? (that's the federal un-hidden amount officially allocated; it's obviously much more when you start adding in provincial welfare, medical, and other programs).


No, it's the blame that I resent. Every Native in this country lives in a paradise compared to what their ancestors endured. Starvation, disease, war, genocide, spousal abuse, and slavery was the common lot before the French and English arrived here. Now they live care-free lives. Few work at real jobs. That's work for white people or other recent arrivals. They do activism or in a few cases art-- sold to tourists, art galleries, and public institutions who wouldn't dare buy a portrait of John A. Macdonald for fear of being called racist.

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Apollonius
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Re: America does not need another Revolution

Post by Apollonius » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:14 am

I think Indians in this country owe more recent arrivals a great deal. Let's not forget, there are virtually no native peoples in the U.S. or Canada who have occupied 'their' lands for very long. Most trace their origins to quite recent migrations, some only a bare hundred years ago.

But instead Native leaders want to dish out accusations to deflect from the fact that their Indian bands are run like secret societies (almost none are ever audited; we just give them cash and who knows where the money goes) and their chiefs and hangers-on continue to physically, sexually, and financially abuse their members.



I've grown to have a deep disrespect for Native leadership over the last twenty years. The public might be coming to share my First Nations fatigue. Jason Kenny, premier of Alberta, was recently denounced by Native leaders because he would not back down when he declared that the whole residential school abuse narrative is a hoax. CBC published the story a couple of days ago, probably hoping that he'd be forced to recant in the manner of Senator Lynn Beyak, who faced a full-scale inquisition and obligatory 're-education' in the aftermath of some comments she allowed by the public on her website. (It didn't do her any good; she was still banned from the Senate).

I sense that most Canadians are by now completely fed up with these antics. To put it rather bluntly, I think it's time for Native leaders in this country to shut the fuck up.

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Apollonius
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Re: America does not need another Revolution

Post by Apollonius » Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:20 am

Suggested reading:


The Invented Indian: Cultural Fictions & Government Policies edited by James A. Clifton (Transaction Publishers, 1990)



Disrobing the Aboriginal Industry: The Deception Behind Indigenous Cultural Preservation by Frances Widdowson and Albert Howard (McGill-Queen's University Press, 2008)



First Nations? Second Thoughts by Tom Flanagan (McGill-Queen's University Press, 3rd ed., 2019)

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Sertorio
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Re: America does not need another Revolution

Post by Sertorio » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:26 am

I know nothing about Native Canadians and, for all I know, Apollonius may be right about everything he says about them. But not being a young person, I am suspicious of any attempts at demonizing whole peoples, whoever they may be. Can Native Canadians be as bad as Apollonius say they are? I suppose the only way to find out would be giving them a generous piece of the Canadian north, for them to build their own sovereign state, and then watch and see how they would manage on their own, without any financial help from Canada...

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Apollonius
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Re: America does not need another Revolution

Post by Apollonius » Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:56 am

Nunavut is typical. It has 35,000 people spread out over an area three times larger than France. Medical, educational, and buildings trade professionals living there are mostly from southern Canada. Without them they would revert to the Stone Age or become a colony of Russia or China or whomever else was willing to spend the kind of money we do.

neverfail
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Re: America does not need another Revolution

Post by neverfail » Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:41 pm

Apollonius wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:56 am
Neverfail,
Thanks for your thoughts.

Truth is, I am well acquainted with the history behind the treaties which culminated in the Indian Act.

For starters, I suspect that many non-Canadians are unaware that there was no equivalent to Indian removals or wars in this country.
(Well, I ernestly hope that in your country this does not inspire a sanctimonious attitude of "holier-than-thou" pomposity towards Americans - where in whose country they did have Indian removals etc. :D )

That aside, I would like to say that I found your serial posts on the theme native Canadians exceptionally interesting. Without pretending to be any sort of an "expert" on the topic I hope that you will permit me to throw in a few observations and ruminations in respose? It would hardly be me if I did not succomb to the temptation :lol: :D :
.........................................................................................................................................

Apollonius: I suggest that the relatively peaceful frontier history of Canada might have been helped along by a simple matter of demographics. Succinctly, despite the broad similarity in terrstial size there would have been far fewer native occupants in Canada in the first place so therefore less resistence to European settlement and consequently less cause for friction.

The colder climate of Canada would have made your country far less amenable to successful native horticulture of subsistence food crops such as maize, beans and squash than (especially) in the warmer parts of the present-day USA and therefore these would have only been capable of sustaining demographically smaller and more scattered native populations. Bear in mind that all of the food crops cultivated by North American Indians originated from Mexico and Central America: a humid, tropical region and therefore North America with its colder winters (and in many parts drier rainfall conditions) would NOT have been a region where these crops would have delivered such generous yields (in response to neolithic digging stick cultivation methods) as in the parts of the Americas which they were native to.

(In southern Mexico you had centuries of city-state civilisations such as the Maya and the Olmec that at their height sustained quite impressive numbers of peoples. e.g. City ofTeotihuacan = one quarter of a million people. No equivalent anywhere in North America. That speaks for itself.)

Then there was the hunter/fisher component in the native North American diet - crucial for the supply of protein . I have no idea how the density of edible fauna respectively in the present-day US and Canada compared but I have reason to suspect that the longer, colder winters in Canada's higher latitudes and (comparatively) fewer warm-weather months would have meant that, on average the "window of opportunity" for native Canadians to gather the means to sustain themselves through the winter months (smoked salmon? Jerky? Pemmican?) would have been "smaller and narrower" than for those living in what was to become the USA.

The outcome = future Canada would have sustained a much smaller native population and that would have been divided into generally smaller and more widely spaced apart bands.
..........................................................................................................................................

Canada today has a total population only around one-tenth the size of that of the USA. I hope that this news does not in any way bruise your national pride as a Canadian, Apollonius: but it seems that regardless of whether the two are populated with indigenous hunters cum horticulturalists or with predominantly Euroepan but mixed race peoples both in command of modern commercial political economies: the USA has Canada well in truly beaten in terms of its ability to sustain a large human population at a broadly similar standard of living.

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cassowary
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Re: America does not need another Revolution

Post by cassowary » Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:10 am

Apollonius wrote:
Tue Jun 30, 2020 9:11 am

No, it's the blame that I resent. Every Native in this country lives in a paradise compared to what their ancestors endured. Starvation, disease, war, genocide, spousal abuse, and slavery was the common lot before the French and English arrived here. Now they live care-free lives. Few work at real jobs. That's work for white people or other recent arrivals. They do activism or in a few cases art-- sold to tourists, art galleries, and public institutions who wouldn't dare buy a portrait of John A. Macdonald for fear of being called racist.
They are bums. They got nothing to sell except white guilt. Make the white man feel guilty to get lots of $$$.

Tell these bums to gain some marketable skills like accounting, law, medicine, even pizza making etc. Sell these instead of making people feel guilty to get $$$.
No. The school system was created for the purpose of removing children from the abuse and neglect of parents who were slowly murdering their kids, the same reason that kids are removed from the care of families who cannot or will not properly take care of them today.

The number of children who died while under the care and supervision of residential schools is contentious and highly disputed. What is not in dispute is that mortality rates for all children were high 100 and more years ago. Further, it is an open question how many children that ended up in residential schools would have died had they not been taken out of situations where conditions were even much worse.
Nope. The residential schools didn't work. As what one of our Founding Fathers, Dr Goh Keng Swee advocated, you need to send in the missionaries to correct their character flaws that came from their culture. Put the fear of God into them. Convince them they will burn in hell if they mistreat their kids.

The missionary school I attended did a lot of good. The product is someone like me. :D
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: America does not need another Revolution

Post by neverfail » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:37 am

cassowary wrote:
Sun Jun 28, 2020 6:06 pm
The US has a near identical situation as Australia. Just substitute the blacks for your abos.
No. The valid comparison is with their Amerindians.

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