China gets nasty with Australia.

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neverfail
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Re: China gets nasty with Australia: the latest.

Post by neverfail » Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:02 am

https://asiatimes.com/2020/08/china-acc ... -build-up/
The Australian government is under pressure to curb spying activities at a Chinese mission in Adelaide after warnings of an “extreme” threat to the country’s US$65 billion upgrade in naval warfare capability.

Australia plans to build 54 warships over the next 20 years as part of its biggest defense overhaul since World War II, with most construction work taking place at facilities around the Osborne naval shipyard outside Adelaide.
I am amazed that they anticipate being able to recruit enough personnel to man 54 warships.
Twelve submarines will be built there from 2022-23, and about half of the 21 patrol boats being added for coastal surveillance.

US firms are supplying weapons systems and electronics for the frigates, with a US$1.5 billion combat package approved by Washington in January.

Spying agencies reportedly are targeting the scores of contractors based around Osborne, including local affiliates of foreign manufacturers like BAE Systems (UK), Raytheon (US), Babcock (UK) and Naval Group (France).


it is not just our secrets they are attempting to steal then.
Beijing opened a permanent consulate in Adelaide in 2017, around the time the fleet modernization was announced, and it has expanded. China said in 2017 that the site, which sprawls for 5,600 square meters and has at least four buildings, would be used for “offices and accommodation.”
For readers unaware of the significence: while I can undwerstand the PRC having an embassy in Canberra (our national capital) along with consular offices in (respectively) Sydney and Melbourne (our two biggest population centres and dual commercial hub) I cannot see how in terms of the legetimate volume and type of business a consular office would normally do how it would pay the PRC to operate one at Adelaide - which is one of our smaller state capitals and (unlike even Perth in Western Australia) does not preside over a state that does anenormous amount of business with the PRC.

The shipyard is located (convneiently for spies) on the outskirts of Adelaide too. We make it so very easy for them - all fools us.

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Sertorio
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Re: China gets nasty with Australia: the latest.

Post by Sertorio » Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:59 am

neverfail wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:02 am
https://asiatimes.com/2020/08/china-acc ... -build-up/
The Australian government is under pressure to curb spying activities at a Chinese mission in Adelaide after warnings of an “extreme” threat to the country’s US$65 billion upgrade in naval warfare capability.

Australia plans to build 54 warships over the next 20 years as part of its biggest defense overhaul since World War II, with most construction work taking place at facilities around the Osborne naval shipyard outside Adelaide.
I am amazed that they anticipate being able to recruit enough personnel to man 54 warships.
Twelve submarines will be built there from 2022-23, and about half of the 21 patrol boats being added for coastal surveillance.

US firms are supplying weapons systems and electronics for the frigates, with a US$1.5 billion combat package approved by Washington in January.

Spying agencies reportedly are targeting the scores of contractors based around Osborne, including local affiliates of foreign manufacturers like BAE Systems (UK), Raytheon (US), Babcock (UK) and Naval Group (France).


it is not just our secrets they are attempting to steal then.
Beijing opened a permanent consulate in Adelaide in 2017, around the time the fleet modernization was announced, and it has expanded. China said in 2017 that the site, which sprawls for 5,600 square meters and has at least four buildings, would be used for “offices and accommodation.”
For readers unaware of the significence: while I can undwerstand the PRC having an embassy in Canberra (our national capital) along with consular offices in (respectively) Sydney and Melbourne (our two biggest population centres and dual commercial hub) I cannot see how in terms of the legetimate volume and type of business a consular office would normally do how it would pay the PRC to operate one at Adelaide - which is one of our smaller state capitals and (unlike even Perth in Western Australia) does not preside over a state that does anenormous amount of business with the PRC.

The shipyard is located (convneiently for spies) on the outskirts of Adelaide too. We make it so very easy for them - all fools us.
Spying is an age old activity by any sovereign power. Nothing to get upset or outraged about. All a country must do is being sure that foreign spies are not successful. And if caught, should be either tried and jailed - if they are nationals - or quickly expelled if they are foreign diplomats. I'm sure Australia is engaged in a bit of spying of its own, possibly in China as well.

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cassowary
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Re: China gets nasty with Australia: the latest.

Post by cassowary » Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:14 am

neverfail wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:02 am
https://asiatimes.com/2020/08/china-acc ... -build-up/
The Australian government is under pressure to curb spying activities at a Chinese mission in Adelaide after warnings of an “extreme” threat to the country’s US$65 billion upgrade in naval warfare capability.

Australia plans to build 54 warships over the next 20 years as part of its biggest defense overhaul since World War II, with most construction work taking place at facilities around the Osborne naval shipyard outside Adelaide.
I am amazed that they anticipate being able to recruit enough personnel to man 54 warships.
Twelve submarines will be built there from 2022-23, and about half of the 21 patrol boats being added for coastal surveillance.

US firms are supplying weapons systems and electronics for the frigates, with a US$1.5 billion combat package approved by Washington in January.

Spying agencies reportedly are targeting the scores of contractors based around Osborne, including local affiliates of foreign manufacturers like BAE Systems (UK), Raytheon (US), Babcock (UK) and Naval Group (France).


it is not just our secrets they are attempting to steal then.
Beijing opened a permanent consulate in Adelaide in 2017, around the time the fleet modernization was announced, and it has expanded. China said in 2017 that the site, which sprawls for 5,600 square meters and has at least four buildings, would be used for “offices and accommodation.”
For readers unaware of the significence: while I can undwerstand the PRC having an embassy in Canberra (our national capital) along with consular offices in (respectively) Sydney and Melbourne (our two biggest population centres and dual commercial hub) I cannot see how in terms of the legetimate volume and type of business a consular office would normally do how it would pay the PRC to operate one at Adelaide - which is one of our smaller state capitals and (unlike even Perth in Western Australia) does not preside over a state that does anenormous amount of business with the PRC.

The shipyard is located (convneiently for spies) on the outskirts of Adelaide too. We make it so very easy for them - all fools us.
They are doing it in Russia too. That's probably why Putin abruptly stopped shipping S400 missiles to China. See my thread on this.
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: China gets nasty with Australia: the latest.

Post by neverfail » Tue Aug 18, 2020 2:53 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 1:59 am


Spying is an age old activity by any sovereign power. Nothing to get upset or outraged about. All a country must do is being sure that foreign spies are not successful. And if caught, should be either tried and jailed - if they are nationals - or quickly expelled if they are foreign diplomats. I'm sure Australia is engaged in a bit of spying of its own, possibly in China as well.
Hi Sertorio.

Thanks for your response which I consider objective and fair.

I think our services are more into counter-intelligence at home than spying abroad. I know that our spy service has for years been keeping tabs on our neighbour Indonesia but the PRC? Hard to say as espionage is, of course, a secretive business. But at a guess; apart from legetimate intelligence gathering (all embassies do that) ASIS, our foreign spy service would likely be reluctant to put its own staff at risk in the PRC as the consequences of getting caught can be/are dire and PRC counter-espionage is reputedly thorough and efficient.

I do not know how active the US spy agencies have been in the PRC but as one of the " five eyes" Australia would be the repripient of a yield of intelligence from that. Both the CIA and the PRC secret service would have resources that Australia's counterpart could never hope to match. .

neverfail
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Re: China gets nasty with Australia: the latest.

Post by neverfail » Tue Aug 18, 2020 3:33 pm

cassowary wrote:
Tue Aug 18, 2020 4:14 am

They are doing it in Russia too. That's probably why Putin abruptly stopped shipping S400 missiles to China. See my thread on this.
I have seen it and commented.

neverfail
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Re: China is still getting nasty with Australia.

Post by neverfail » Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:25 am

https://asiatimes.com/2020/09/australia ... struction/

Australia, China trade war ensures mutual destruction

China's punitive tariffs on Australian wine, grains and meats is hitting both sides in an especially painful decoupling.
To think that all that started with a push by Prime Minister Scott Morrison for an independent enquiry into the origins of the coronavirus epidemic in China. Here is a news article dated April 29 this year about it.

Morrison's public utterances on the matter at the time sounded unduly bellicose in tone. It moved be to wonder three things about the wisdom of pursuing thos policy course:

1. Has he lost sight of just who our indespensable biggest overseas trading partner is? Does our PM believe that the PRC government would not initiate reprisals on our economic interests? Morrison acted as if he believed that economics is one thing and politics is in a different compartment altogether - so pursuing a political course that the PRC government disapproved of should have no negative impact on our trade ties with China. Evidence of a "compartmentalised" mindset. To say that in other words: Scott Morrison seemed to presume that in dealing with China he could still have his cake while eating it.

2. I queried at the time: is it really the duty of a middling power vulnerable to reprisals like Australia to act like Saint George in shining armour going around slaying dragons? Morrison's posturing at the time gave me the impression that he saw himself that way. Would it not be better to leave the promotion of such an investigation to a bigger power - say the EU - not so beholden to China as we and therefore relatively immune from PRC reprisals?

3. Is Morrison unaware that in China and elsewhere in Asia they regard the saving of face as sacrosanct? Very likely he was - and he would not be the only big-egoed Australian public figure ignorant of this aspect of Chinese good manners.

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Sertorio
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Re: China is still getting nasty with Australia.

Post by Sertorio » Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:46 am

neverfail wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:25 am
https://asiatimes.com/2020/09/australia ... struction/

Australia, China trade war ensures mutual destruction

China's punitive tariffs on Australian wine, grains and meats is hitting both sides in an especially painful decoupling.
To think that all that started with a push by Prime Minister Scott Morrison for an independent enquiry into the origins of the coronavirus epidemic in China. Here is a news article dated April 29 this year about it.

Morrison's public utterances on the matter at the time sounded unduly bellicose in tone. It moved be to wonder three things about the wisdom of pursuing thos policy course:

1. Has he lost sight of just who our indespensable biggest overseas trading partner is? Does our PM believe that the PRC government would not initiate reprisals on our economic interests? Morrison acted as if he believed that economics is one thing and politics is in a different compartment altogether - so pursuing a political course that the PRC government disapproved of should have no negative impact on our trade ties with China. Evidence of a "compartmentalised" mindset. To say that in other words: Scott Morrison seemed to presume that in dealing with China he could still have his cake while eating it.

2. I queried at the time: is it really the duty of a middling power vulnerable to reprisals like Australia to act like Saint George in shining armour going around slaying dragons? Morrison's posturing at the time gave me the impression that he saw himself that way. Would it not be better to leave the promotion of such an investigation to a bigger power - say the EU - not so beholden to China as we and therefore relatively immune from PRC reprisals?

3. Is Morrison unaware that in China and elsewhere in Asia they regard the saving of face as sacrosanct? Very likely he was - and he would not be the only big-egoed Australian public figure ignorant of this aspect of Chinese good manners.
Just an example of the consequences of acting as a vassal of the US. When will the "Anglo" countries realize that they do not owe anything to the US just because they speak the same language and have some common ancestors? Dangerous as China may sometimes be, it is no way as destructive and dangerous as the US are. Australia could have a good mutually profitable relationship with China without being in any way endangered by it. Peaceful coexistence is a valid concept.

neverfail
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Re: China is still getting nasty with Australia.

Post by neverfail » Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:00 am

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 3:46 am
Just an example of the consequences of acting as a vassal of the US. When will the "Anglo" countries realize that they do not owe anything to the US just because they speak the same language and have some common ancestors? Dangerous as China may sometimes be, it is no way as destructive and dangerous as the US are. Australia could have a good mutually profitable relationship with China without being in any way endangered by it. Peaceful coexistence is a valid concept.
Please abstain from refering to us as a "vassal" Sertorio. It is just that if you have an ally like the United States led by a man like Trump, unless you are willing to do some favours you will get none done for you in return.

Having expressed that one objection I am on this occasion inclined to see things your way.

I now have reason to suspect that it did not suit the Americans to inagurate and promote that international campaign of lobbying for the investigation into the source of the coronavirus pandemic; which we all know originated from Wuhan in China anyway. It was bound to embarras the Chinese government and Donald Trump delighhts in embarrasing the Chinese government. However the same US government did not mind a relatively junour ally like Australia doing it for them (regardless of cost to ourselves).

It has placed our Prime Minister in the situation of having to serve two masters. Our government has not been honest with the Australian public Instead of owning up that he is doing it under duress; that our country is being manipulated and used by a foreign power, he goes on pretending that it was all his bright idea. That counts as deception, lying, in my books.

The USA demonstrates bad faith towards its ally just so that their crook of a president can score political points. I object to that!

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Sertorio
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Re: China is still getting nasty with Australia.

Post by Sertorio » Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:44 am

neverfail wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:00 am

Please abstain from refering to us as a "vassal" Sertorio.
I wrote:

"...acting as a vassal of the US."

Which is not the same thing. But I'm glad you recognize that the US doesn't play fair with its allies. I would go further and suggest that Australia should go its own way in its relations with China, without feeling obliged to accommodate the Americans. Your interests are not coincident with the Americans', and you would be a lot better off dealing with China on your own.

neverfail
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Re: China is still getting nasty with Australia.

Post by neverfail » Sat Sep 12, 2020 1:47 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 7:44 am
neverfail wrote:
Sat Sep 12, 2020 6:00 am

Please abstain from refering to us as a "vassal" Sertorio.
I wrote:

"...acting as a vassal of the US."

Which is not the same thing. But I'm glad you recognize that the US doesn't play fair with its allies. I would go further and suggest that Australia should go its own way in its relations with China, without feeling obliged to accommodate the Americans. Your interests are not coincident with the Americans', and you would be a lot better off dealing with China on your own.
Not while the USA has a president like the present one. The point is that we have not had such trouble with the majority of previous US presidents. By comparison most were easy to get along with. But this one is uncaring of, insensative towards, our national interest as long as it enables him to score his political points - posturing around on his home turf as the man who stood up to China (and la de dah!). And remember that it is all about him.

I like your idea that this country going its own way in relations with China and ignoring any call of the US on us on the issue. Compared to the PRC America has been a most ungenerous trading partner for Australia. Yet we would be ill advised to repudiate the alliance altogether. Smaller and weaker countries than the PRC in the Asia-Pacific region that do not have this kind of special relationship with America routinely get treated with contempt by Beijing. The government in Beijing may not love us for being close to the USA but they do not treat us contemptuously.

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