The Struggle for Europe

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Sertorio
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The Struggle for Europe

Post by Sertorio » Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:51 pm

Huge economic rescue plan agreed by EU leaders

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52405458

A plan for injecting billions of euros of emergency aid into Europe's battered economies has been agreed by EU heads.

Meeting via video, they agreed to set up a massive recovery fund, closely tied to the bloc's seven-year budget.

They also confirmed that €540bn (£470bn) of financial support would be released through existing mechanisms from 1 June.

European Commission chief Ursula von der Leyen said the fund would mobilise €1 trillion of investment.

There has been bitter argument over how to fund the much-needed aid. But Italy's Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte said "great progress" had been made on Thursday.

Italy - which has had the deadliest outbreak in Europe to date - had urged its EU partners, especially the richer countries of northern Europe, to show more solidarity.

Very aware of the negative headlines of late, depicting EU leader v EU leader - the rich and frugal North v the suffering, spendthrift South - there was a determination at Thursday's summit to avoid the verbal fisticuffs.

There was no walkout by Angry Italy. No fuming about Eurobonds by the Dutch. Instead EU leaders signed off, as expected, on a pre-agreed €500bn euro emergency financial package and on guidelines for lifting Covid-19 restrictions.

Heated discussion about a recovery plan for European economies after the health crisis was left for another day.

The buck passed to the European Commission, which now has the unenviable task of conjuring up a proposal acceptable to divided EU opinion.

Today at least, EU leaders were keen to present a united front. Their underlying intended message: "Yes, we argue but EU solidarity exists. We muddle our way through in the end."

(...)
This agreement was only possible beause the UK no longer is a member of the EU. Had they still been in the EU and we can be sure that they would have blocked any such agreement. Without the support of the UK other sceptical European countries, such as the Netherlands and Austria, did not have the means to block this aid package. It may have been a first step towards an Europe more willing to reach some form of political union. Having freed Europe from the UK, now we need to free ourselves from the US...

neverfail
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Re: The UK: the first rat to desert the sinking EU ship?

Post by neverfail » Thu Apr 23, 2020 4:13 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 2:51 pm

This agreement was only possible beause the UK no longer is a member of the EU. Had they still been in the EU and we can be sure that they would have blocked any such agreement. Without the support of the UK other sceptical European countries, such as the Netherlands and Austria, did not have the means to block this aid package. It may have been a first step towards an Europe more willing to reach some form of political union. Having freed Europe from the UK, now we need to free ourselves from the US...
Meantime Italy. already so heavily in debt as to be technically insolvent, having got away with soliciting a bail-out loan it is likely never to be able to repay has now set a precedent that will now doubt be followed by other EU debtor member states.

That sort of solidarity the more solvent northern EU member states, who will have to foot the bill for Italian (and other southern) debt default, is the sort of "solidarity" that these can do without.

neverfail
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Re: Other possible European rats?

Post by neverfail » Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:22 pm

Now Sertorio, please come clean about this matter of (contrived) EU "soldarity". :lol:

Britain was able to depart the EU because it refused to adopt the Euro as national currency but retained the pound.

By contrast, those EU member states that adopted the Euro as replacenemt for preceeding national currencies would not be able to leave without bringing their own national (now regional) economies to ruin. These include Germany (the Euro is rerally the Deutschemark relabeled), France and of course Italy.

So there you have it. As a user of the same currency the German and French have too much invested in Italy to let this country sink. Not "European solidarity" as much as fear of fiscal and monetary upheaval.

("If we do not hang together we will surely hang seperately" - words attributed to Benjamin Franklin.)

However some EU member states (like Britain) have never adopted the Euro. These include Denmark, and Sweden - certainly these two could feasably follow Britain out as some time in the future but have not apparently become sufficiently pissed off yet to do so.

Other non-users of the Euro include Bulgaria, Croatia, Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland, Romania. These are relatively new member states yet to raise their level of development and living standards closer to the EU average but unlike Denmark and Sweden are legally committed to adopting the Euro as some future time.

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/i ... e-euro.asp

Presently, EU subsidies and transfer payments would be still too attractive to move these newcomers to want to depart like the UK. But time will tell. With Eurpope plunging into what is likely to prove a deep, long-lived recession in the wake of the COVID-19 epidemic money is bound to become tight and the European compact subjected to fresh strains within.

Wait to see what happens.
>..............................................................

P.s. since the USA is not, never has been and never will be a EU member state why do you keep on harping about the need for Europe to become "independent" of the US?

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Sertorio
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Re: Other possible European rats?

Post by Sertorio » Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:32 am

neverfail wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:22 pm
...the Euro is rerally the Deutschemark relabeled...
In fact the euro is the way Germany had to devalue the DM (which would promote exports) without having to face retaliation from its partners.
neverfail wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:22 pm
...since the USA is not, never has been and never will be a EU member state why do you keep on harping about the need for Europe to become "independent" of the US?
Because the US does not want to face a free and united Europe, capable of and willing to defy the US. The US will do anything to prevent an unified Europe not dependent on the US, and that's why we must get rid of NATO and of the alliance with the US.

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Re: Other possible European rats?

Post by neverfail » Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:41 am

neverfail wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:22 pm
...the Euro is rerally the Deutschemark relabeled...
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:32 am
In fact the euro is the way Germany had to devalue the DM (which would promote exports) without having to face retaliation from its partners.
Clever of them!
neverfail wrote:
Thu Apr 23, 2020 5:22 pm
...since the USA is not, never has been and never will be a EU member state why do you keep on harping about the need for Europe to become "independent" of the US?
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:32 am
Because the US does not want to face a free and united Europe, capable of and willing to defy the US. The US will do anything to prevent an unified Europe not dependent on the US, and that's why we must get rid of NATO and of the alliance with the US.
Strange Sertorio! During my visits to Europe I never gained the impression that its nations were anything other than independent and soverign. I saw no evidence of subservience to the United States.

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Sertorio
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Re: Other possible European rats?

Post by Sertorio » Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:53 am

neverfail wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:41 am
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:32 am
Because the US does not want to face a free and united Europe, capable of and willing to defy the US. The US will do anything to prevent an unified Europe not dependent on the US, and that's why we must get rid of NATO and of the alliance with the US.
Strange Sertorio! During my visits to Europe I never gained the impression that its nations were anything other than independent and soverign. I saw no evidence of subservience to the United States.
If you see the way the US has conditioned European dealings with Iran, the forced acceptance by Europe of narco-trafficants friend Juan Guaido as "interim" President of Venezuela, the attempt at stopping the Nord-Stream 2 pipeline, you will see that the US stops at nothing to keep Europe dependent and subservient to its policies.

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Re: Other possible European rats?

Post by neverfail » Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:56 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:53 am
neverfail wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:41 am
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:32 am
Because the US does not want to face a free and united Europe, capable of and willing to defy the US. The US will do anything to prevent an unified Europe not dependent on the US, and that's why we must get rid of NATO and of the alliance with the US.
Strange Sertorio! During my visits to Europe I never gained the impression that its nations were anything other than independent and soverign. I saw no evidence of subservience to the United States.
If you see the way the US has conditioned European dealings with Iran, the forced acceptance by Europe of narco-trafficants friend Juan Guaido as "interim" President of Venezuela, the attempt at stopping the Nord-Stream 2 pipeline, you will see that the US stops at nothing to keep Europe dependent and subservient to its policies.
Conditioned?. You mean that EU Iran policy was NOT an act of free choice?

Forced?: ditto above?

the attempt at stopping the Nord-Stream 2 pipeline?. That seems to have more to do with economic sanctions on Russia than denial of Europe supplies of Russian gas.

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Milo
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Re: The Struggle for Europe

Post by Milo » Sat Apr 25, 2020 1:45 am

The IRA is there to interpret all news as supporting its thesis. That the article here reports on a "struggle for Europe" is a bit of a stretch.

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Sertorio
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Re: Other possible European rats?

Post by Sertorio » Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:30 am

neverfail wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:56 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:53 am
neverfail wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 5:41 am
Sertorio wrote:
Fri Apr 24, 2020 4:32 am
Because the US does not want to face a free and united Europe, capable of and willing to defy the US. The US will do anything to prevent an unified Europe not dependent on the US, and that's why we must get rid of NATO and of the alliance with the US.
Strange Sertorio! During my visits to Europe I never gained the impression that its nations were anything other than independent and soverign. I saw no evidence of subservience to the United States.
If you see the way the US has conditioned European dealings with Iran, the forced acceptance by Europe of narco-trafficants friend Juan Guaido as "interim" President of Venezuela, the attempt at stopping the Nord-Stream 2 pipeline, you will see that the US stops at nothing to keep Europe dependent and subservient to its policies.
Conditioned?. You mean that EU Iran policy was NOT an act of free choice?

Forced?: ditto above?

the attempt at stopping the Nord-Stream 2 pipeline?. That seems to have more to do with economic sanctions on Russia than denial of Europe supplies of Russian gas.
While Europe openly says it wants to keep dealing with Iran, in fact it stops short of doing so for fear of US retaliation.

The same with the Guaido crook. Several European countries did not want to recognize him as interim President of Venezuela (namely Portugal and Spain) but couldn't openly defy the US.

Trying to stop Nord Stream 2 has nothing to do with sanctions against Russia, and all to do with selling expensive American LPG to Europe, as well as stopping Europe from establishing a closer relationship with Russia.

The US keeps attacking Europe and European interests, and Europe just folds...

neverfail
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Re: Other possible European rats?

Post by neverfail » Sat Apr 25, 2020 4:17 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Sat Apr 25, 2020 8:30 am

The US keeps attacking Europe and European interests, and Europe just folds...
List of key European countries re. % of exports that go to the USA

Germany = 8.8%

France = 7.2%

Italy = 9.0%

Spain = 4.4%

I will go no further. It should be noted that as a broad imperfect rule the demographically larger the country and the bigger its GDP, the less reliant it becomes on the proceeds of international trade and the more reliant on domestic supply and demand for its overall economic health.

Europe's largest economies would therefore "set the pattern" for Europe as a whole. Europe is none too reliant on trade with the USA for its economic vitality. I doubt whether US investment in Europe would be any more important as I believe that Europe is a nett exporter of capital in its own right.

So please tell me Sertorio: what sort of "handle" does the US have on Europe that could compel the degree of political cowardice that you allege?

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