The Pope is a Communist

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cassowary
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Re: The Pope does not understand economics

Post by cassowary » Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:45 pm

neverfail wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:43 pm
Sertorio wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:08 am
The Pope's business is morals and ethics and the dignity of Man. He doesn't have to be an economist to recognize the moral failure of capitalism and the dramatic social consequences of institutionalized greed. He is wise enough not to propose any particular economic system, but he has the right and duty to condemn any system which does not respect human dignity.
Well put, Sertorio!
cassowary wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:29 am

He should stick to religion which governs individual behavior.
Where do you draw the line? In the 1920's the Vatican struck up such a deal with Benito Mussilini's Fascist Italian state which subsequent right wing totalitarian dictatorship, (including Nazi Germany) laid claim to and got. Then as evidence of the crimes and misdeeds of these regimes mounted the Vatican found that it had relinquished the right to speak up in opposition - for which the Vatican has been censured ever since.

Given that precedent, wherever The Pope (advised, no doubt, by some of the most erudite advisers available) perceives evil in the World he had not only a right but a duty to speak up against it.
cassowary wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:29 am
Economics is not his expertise.
But he knows what evil looks like when he sees it.

When you are guided by the Holy Spirit it cannot be otherwise.
I think the Pope’s job is to interpret the Bible and tell us how to be good Christians. Here he is commenting about an economic system.

As for Hitler and Mussolini, there were actual crimes like genocide in the concentration camps. This obviously violates the commandment, “Thou shall not kill.”

In the case we are discussing, an economic system where people are allowed to put their money in tax havens, I can’t think of where the sin is, provided the money was not drug money or illegally obtained.
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: The Pope does not understand economics

Post by neverfail » Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:54 pm

cassowary wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:45 pm


I think the Pope’s job is to interpret the Bible and tell us how to be good Christians. Here he is commenting about an economic system.
Which he sees as unjust to the poor.
cassowary wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:45 pm
As for Hitler and Mussolini, there were actual crimes like genocide in the concentration camps. This obviously violates the commandment, “Thou shall not kill.”
Yes, and the Church was unable to stand against that evil because of the deal it had earlier made with the Fascist powers "you leave politics to us and concentrate on religion and we in turn will not intrude into your domain of religion." It turned into a pact with the devil. The Vatican failed to foresee just how evil politics could become: as they did in varying shades and gradations throughout much of Europe and deep into Asia as well over the first half of the 20th century. Well, the same rule applies to the Church's critique of unjust, exploitative, socio-economic-political systems. When doing God's work here on earth you cannot compartmentalize; placing religion in one box and worldly things such as economics and business (and/or politics) in another. They interact together.

Your trouble that you refuse to see that the devil can work through capitalism as he can through any other socio-economic and political structure invented by man. The cosmic spirit of evil is very versatile and extremely cunning that way.

P.S. I don't quite agree with your statement that Pope’s job is to interpret the Bible and tell us how to be good Christians To begin with there are plenty of Biblical scholars within the Catholic Church better versed than the Pope; so if Pope Francis needed to he would more likely seek advice from one of these than rely exclusively on his own nous. These days too Popes do not usually tell us how to be good Christians: if you try to tell people what to do these days they would likely ignore you. As far as humanly possible they try to lead by prayer and good example.

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cassowary
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Re: The Pope does not understand economics

Post by cassowary » Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:45 am

neverfail wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 7:54 pm
cassowary wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:45 pm


I think the Pope’s job is to interpret the Bible and tell us how to be good Christians. Here he is commenting about an economic system.
Which he sees as unjust to the poor.
cassowary wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:45 pm
As for Hitler and Mussolini, there were actual crimes like genocide in the concentration camps. This obviously violates the commandment, “Thou shall not kill.”
Yes, and the Church was unable to stand against that evil because of the deal it had earlier made with the Fascist powers "you leave politics to us and concentrate on religion and we in turn will not intrude into your domain of religion." It turned into a pact with the devil. The Vatican failed to foresee just how evil politics could become: as they did in varying shades and gradations throughout much of Europe and deep into Asia as well over the first half of the 20th century. Well, the same rule applies to the Church's critique of unjust, exploitative, socio-economic-political systems. When doing God's work here on earth you cannot compartmentalize; placing religion in one box and worldly things such as economics and business (and/or politics) in another. They interact together.

Your trouble that you refuse to see that the devil can work through capitalism as he can through any other socio-economic and political structure invented by man. The cosmic spirit of evil is very versatile and extremely cunning that way.

P.S. I don't quite agree with your statement that Pope’s job is to interpret the Bible and tell us how to be good Christians To begin with there are plenty of Biblical scholars within the Catholic Church better versed than the Pope; so if Pope Francis needed to he would more likely seek advice from one of these than rely exclusively on his own nous. These days too Popes do not usually tell us how to be good Christians: if you try to tell people what to do these days they would likely ignore you. As far as humanly possible they try to lead by prayer and good example.
Commenting on an economic system is taking him out of his expertise. That's his opinion based in large part on what he believes the system is all about.

That is not to say that the Church should do nothing about poverty. Indeed, your church has organized dozens of charities, a commendable task in line with Christ's teachings. But there is one area that the Pope can do and has neglected to do.

Instead of foraying into economics, an area which he has limited understanding, the Pope should instead cultivate Christian values that govern individual behavior. You see, sin is a major cause if not the main cause of poverty.

Avoiding sin thus promotes prosperity and eradicates poverty. That is what we all want, isn't it? And this topic is right up the alley for a Pope. I know this message is unpleasant to a leftist who believes in Marxist ideas that poverty is the result of exploitation in an unjust capitalist order. That is rubbish. If each person in the Catholic Church does a better job in being good Christians, poverty will be greatly reduced. It won't be totally eradicated for that is impossible. The poor will always be with us.

Now, I am not going to make a statement that sin causes poverty without giving you reasons. So, here it comes.

First, let me remind you of the study done by Jonathan Gruber, an economist from MIT.

Wealth from Worship.
Jonathan Gruber, an economist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, claims that regular religious participation leads to better education, higher income and a lower chance of divorce.
Why is that? I like to believe it comes from the blessings of God for the faithful. You might accept this reason as you are a believer. But for non believers, there are other reasons to explain this.

Firstly, the commandment, "Thou shalt not commit adultery, " encourages the faithful to be true to your spouse. Infidelity is the main cause for divorce. Broken families leave young kids traumatized. Their studies suffer and often they develop social problems. The breakdown of the black family in the US is the major cause of their economic and educational underperformance.

Christianity also promotes diligence, frugality and honesty. All these qualities improves educational success and employability. This translates to higher income. You want verses from the Bible?

On diligence :

Proverbs 6:10 & 11

A little extra sleep, a little more slumber,

then poverty will pounce on you like a bandit;

On frugality:

Proverbs 21:17

He that loveth pleasure shall be a poor man: he that loveth wine and oil shall not be rich.

Proverbs 29:3

A man who loves wisdom makes his father glad, But he who keeps company with harlots wastes his wealth.

So someone who squanders his money on wine and women will not grow rich. Be careful with your spending.

On honesty:

Surely I don't need to do this one. Thou shall not steal. Thou shall not bear false witness.

So you see, there is more to charity that the church can do to reduce poverty. The Pope must teach his flock Christian values for they help to make the poor rich. Saying that people won't listen to him is defeatist. He must try to encourage good behavior.

Here is another article on this:

Why Religion matters

Excerpt:
Church attendance is the most important predictor of marital stability and happiness.
The regular practice of religion helps poor persons move out of poverty. Regular church attendance, for example, is particularly instrumental in helping young people to escape the poverty of inner-city life.
Unfortunately your Pope has been influenced by Marxist ideas. This is bad for it gives poor people a crutch. Instead of improving themselves, they get the idea that there is nothing they can do. It is all the fault of the capitalist system. They grow resentful and ENVIOUS. Envy is one of the 7 deadly sins. And they will remain poor.

Of course, none of this is to suggest that all rich people are virtuous and all poor people are big sinners. There are rich people whose ill gotten wealth was gained by unscrupulous and even illegal behavior. There are also virtuous poor people who suffered from unfortunate circumstances. All I am saying is that what determines a man's income and wealth in life depends on his behavior. Sinful behavior will lead to poverty in most cases and the converse is also true.

So the Pope should focus his energy on eradicating sin. This is right up his alley.

............................................................................................................................

Besides this, do you agree with my earlier statements that Socialism leads to poverty? So the Pope should not promote it.
The Imp :D

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Sertorio
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Re: The Pope does not understand economics

Post by Sertorio » Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:54 am

cassowary wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:45 am
Jonathan Gruber, an economist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, claims that regular religious participation leads to better education, higher income and a lower chance of divorce.
Why is that? I like to believe it comes from the blessings of God for the faithful. You might accept this reason as you are a believer. But for non believers, there are other reasons to explain this.

Firstly, the commandment, "Thou shalt not commit adultery, " encourages the faithful to be true to your spouse. Infidelity is the main cause for divorce. Broken families leave young kids traumatized. Their studies suffer and often they develop social problems. The breakdown of the black family in the US is the major cause of their economic and educational underperformance.
Thank you Cass! I hadn't had such a good laugh in a very long time!...

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Mind you, I do respect your right to whatever beliefs you subscribe to, but saying those things out loud sounds kind of funny...]

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cassowary
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Re: The Pope does not understand economics

Post by cassowary » Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:04 am

Sertorio wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:54 am
cassowary wrote:
Wed Feb 12, 2020 2:45 am
Jonathan Gruber, an economist at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, claims that regular religious participation leads to better education, higher income and a lower chance of divorce.
Why is that? I like to believe it comes from the blessings of God for the faithful. You might accept this reason as you are a believer. But for non believers, there are other reasons to explain this.

Firstly, the commandment, "Thou shalt not commit adultery, " encourages the faithful to be true to your spouse. Infidelity is the main cause for divorce. Broken families leave young kids traumatized. Their studies suffer and often they develop social problems. The breakdown of the black family in the US is the major cause of their economic and educational underperformance.
Thank you Cass! I hadn't had such a good laugh in a very long time!...

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Mind you, I do respect your right to whatever beliefs you subscribe to, but saying those things out loud sounds kind of funny...]
Laughter without refutation means you have lost the debate.
The Imp :D

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