The Pope is a Communist

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neverfail
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Re: The Pope does not understand economics

Post by neverfail » Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:46 am

cassowary wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:52 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:49 pm
cassowary wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:15 pm
Businessmen create jobs by risking their capital....
.....and worker/employees generate their profits for them by agreeing to work for the bastards - all the time running the risk that they will lose their means to an livelihood through no fault of their own should the firm that employs them 1) shed labour due to the onset of recession or 2) (worse still) send the firm broke due to mismanagement.

When it came to providing lifelong employment for breadwinners, the Socialist command economies of yore were better at that. No business cycles = no recessions .

So please cease placing businessmen-entrepreneurs high up on a pedestal. Agreed that they have their uses but I refuse to regard them as demi-gods as you habitually seem to.
The business owner is the first one to take a hit. The worker gets to keep all the wages they were paid since he started working. The business owner may lose all the capital he invested and profits he made since he started the business. The business owner is the hero of the modern economy because he creates jobs at the risk of all his capital. The worker only risks losing his future income if he gets retrenched when there is a recession.

Without the business owner, the country would be very poor.
The way in which corporate big business has taken over government in the USA to the detriment of the rest of society (I believe that it is even worse in Putin's Russia where organised crime share power with the business oligarchs) ) it is ludicrous to speak these days in terms of the poor business owner.

I actually agree with your above hypothesis in principle. It is just a pity that it is not relevant to any discussion on the sins of capitalism.

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cassowary
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Re: The Pope does not understand economics

Post by cassowary » Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:33 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:36 am
cassowary wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:47 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:33 pm


Boy, have you got it wrong Cassowary!
Why?
I should not need to explain that to you as we have been over this ground again and again for years. Please do not try to pretend that you do not know.
I honestly don't know. Whatever you said in the past was refuted by me. I am not aware of any outstanding argument you gave that I could not refute.
The Imp :D

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cassowary
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Re: The Pope does not understand economics

Post by cassowary » Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:39 am

neverfail wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:46 am
cassowary wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:52 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:49 pm
cassowary wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:15 pm
Businessmen create jobs by risking their capital....
.....and worker/employees generate their profits for them by agreeing to work for the bastards - all the time running the risk that they will lose their means to an livelihood through no fault of their own should the firm that employs them 1) shed labour due to the onset of recession or 2) (worse still) send the firm broke due to mismanagement.

When it came to providing lifelong employment for breadwinners, the Socialist command economies of yore were better at that. No business cycles = no recessions .

So please cease placing businessmen-entrepreneurs high up on a pedestal. Agreed that they have their uses but I refuse to regard them as demi-gods as you habitually seem to.
The business owner is the first one to take a hit. The worker gets to keep all the wages they were paid since he started working. The business owner may lose all the capital he invested and profits he made since he started the business. The business owner is the hero of the modern economy because he creates jobs at the risk of all his capital. The worker only risks losing his future income if he gets retrenched when there is a recession.

Without the business owner, the country would be very poor.
The way in which corporate big business has taken over government in the USA to the detriment of the rest of society (I believe that it is even worse in Putin's Russia where organised crime share power with the business oligarchs) ) it is ludicrous to speak these days in terms of the poor business owner.

I actually agree with your above hypothesis in principle. It is just a pity that it is not relevant to any discussion on the sins of capitalism.
Big business take over the government. Surely you exaggerate. They do have some influence but so do unions, rival companies, green groups and so on. Different groups are vying for influence and big business is only one. What about the small firms? These are the ones who create the most jobs.
The Imp :D

neverfail
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Re: The Pope does not understand economics

Post by neverfail » Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:08 pm

cassowary wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:39 am


Big business take over the government. Surely you exaggerate. They do have some influence but so do unions, rival companies, green groups and so on. Different groups are vying for influence and big business is only one. What about the small firms? These are the ones who create the most jobs.
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/ar ... cy/390822/

Small firms? They do not even get a look-in.

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cassowary
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Re: The Pope does not understand economics

Post by cassowary » Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:56 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:36 am
cassowary wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 12:47 am
neverfail wrote:
Sun Feb 09, 2020 5:33 pm


Boy, have you got it wrong Cassowary!
Why?
I should not need to explain that to you as we have been over this ground again and again for years. Please do not try to pretend that you do not know.

The Pope is neither a businessman nor a macro-economic manager but a humble servant of Jesus Christ here on earth. One who we Catholics believe is guided by the Holy Spirit. This does not mean that he gets it right every time but in matters essential to faith I believe that he does. His background is as a bishop in Argentina where he lived modestly and worked long and hard for the poor and disenfranchised in his home country. If a man like that did not identify and speak out against sin (including socio-economic sin) he would be remiss in his duty.
Neverfail,

I missed out this one. Here are my comments.

You are right that the Pope is neither a businessman nor a macro-economic manager. So that is why he should stay out of this matter of whether the current economic system is sinful or not. Instead, he should focus on the individual. What sort of behavior does he consider sinful and what behavior he should encourage. For example, he can say that there there are many poor people and Christians should do more to help them through donations and volunteer work.

His comment that the current system is sinful (is there such a thing as socio economic sin?) implies that it needs changing. Thus he is intruding into macro-economic management, an area which he has no expertise.

My objection to this is that his ideas will lead to more poverty, a problem that we all want to eradicate or at least reduce to the bare minimum. I have explained what's wrong with his thinking which you have not refuted. The best way to reduce poverty is by free market capitalism. The Pope's comment on "the structure of sin", appears to me to be an attack on capitalism. (Is there such a thing as a structure of sin? Who must make confession for this structure? I always believed that sin is individual and not a system.)

He also attacked tax cuts which Trump has pointed out in his SOTU speech, created jobs and boosted the income of the lowest wage earner. So while the Pope talks a lot on something where he has no expertise, Trump and his capitalist approach has eradicated much of the poverty in the US.
The Imp :D

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cassowary
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Re: The Pope does not understand economics

Post by cassowary » Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:04 pm

neverfail wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 1:08 pm
cassowary wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 5:39 am


Big business take over the government. Surely you exaggerate. They do have some influence but so do unions, rival companies, green groups and so on. Different groups are vying for influence and big business is only one. What about the small firms? These are the ones who create the most jobs.
https://www.theatlantic.com/business/ar ... cy/390822/

Small firms? They do not even get a look-in.
That proves that capitalism is a wonderful system. Since it is the more numerous small businesses that creates the most jobs, and they do not have the clout to influence the politicians, it follows that the problem is limited to a few large companies. The good that the small and medium sized firms do for the economy outweighs the corruption between big business and politicians. So the solution is that the politicians must not be given too much power to regulate and tax.

The less they do, the less likely the corruption. This means lower taxes and spending for them. Also regulations put the small and medium size firms at a disadvantage. We need to get their hands away from taxpayers' money, as much as practicable. The only way to do that is to cut spending and taxes. Remember what my granny said? Politicians only want power, money and sometimes girls.
The Imp :D

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cassowary
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Profiles in Corruption

Post by cassowary » Mon Feb 10, 2020 10:25 pm

Image

I have just started on this new book and the first chapter confirms what I said. The leftist politicians demand government do more through spending( which needs high taxation) and regulation. This gives them more opportunity for corruption. Less taxes (and hence spending) and less regulation = less corruption.

That's because the businessmen must pay "protection money", to ensure that regulations are in their favor and that government officials direct spending THEIR way.

So my granny was correct. Politicians are only interested in power, money and girls. My only complaint is that the author, Peter Schweizer focused on the "power and money" part. He should have researched how the politicians after gaining wealth and power were able to attract girls. That would prove my granny completely correct.
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Sertorio
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Re: The Pope does not understand economics

Post by Sertorio » Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:08 am

cassowary wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:56 pm

You are right that the Pope is neither a businessman nor a macro-economic manager. So that is why he should stay out of this matter of whether the current economic system is sinful or not. Instead, he should focus on the individual. What sort of behavior does he consider sinful and what behavior he should encourage. For example, he can say that there there are many poor people and Christians should do more to help them through donations and volunteer work.

His comment that the current system is sinful (is there such a thing as socio economic sin?) implies that it needs changing. Thus he is intruding into macro-economic management, an area which he has no expertise.

My objection to this is that his ideas will lead to more poverty, a problem that we all want to eradicate or at least reduce to the bare minimum. I have explained what's wrong with his thinking which you have not refuted. The best way to reduce poverty is by free market capitalism. The Pope's comment on "the structure of sin", appears to me to be an attack on capitalism. (Is there such a thing as a structure of sin? Who must make confession for this structure? I always believed that sin is individual and not a system.)
The Pope's business is morals and ethics and the dignity of Man. He doesn't have to be an economist to recognize the moral failure of capitalism and the dramatic social consequences of institutionalized greed. He is wise enough not to propose any particular economic system, but he has the right and duty to condemn any system which does not respect human dignity.

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cassowary
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Re: The Pope does not understand economics

Post by cassowary » Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:29 am

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:08 am
cassowary wrote:
Mon Feb 10, 2020 9:56 pm

You are right that the Pope is neither a businessman nor a macro-economic manager. So that is why he should stay out of this matter of whether the current economic system is sinful or not. Instead, he should focus on the individual. What sort of behavior does he consider sinful and what behavior he should encourage. For example, he can say that there there are many poor people and Christians should do more to help them through donations and volunteer work.

His comment that the current system is sinful (is there such a thing as socio economic sin?) implies that it needs changing. Thus he is intruding into macro-economic management, an area which he has no expertise.

My objection to this is that his ideas will lead to more poverty, a problem that we all want to eradicate or at least reduce to the bare minimum. I have explained what's wrong with his thinking which you have not refuted. The best way to reduce poverty is by free market capitalism. The Pope's comment on "the structure of sin", appears to me to be an attack on capitalism. (Is there such a thing as a structure of sin? Who must make confession for this structure? I always believed that sin is individual and not a system.)
The Pope's business is morals and ethics and the dignity of Man. He doesn't have to be an economist to recognize the moral failure of capitalism and the dramatic social consequences of institutionalized greed. He is wise enough not to propose any particular economic system, but he has the right and duty to condemn any system which does not respect human dignity.
It is not his job to comment on any economic system. He should stick to religion which governs individual behavior. Economics is not his expertise. He knows little about how economics work. I know where he is going with his criticism of capitalism - socialism, followed by poverty and dictatorship.
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neverfail
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Re: The Pope does not understand economics

Post by neverfail » Tue Feb 11, 2020 1:43 pm

Sertorio wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 3:08 am
The Pope's business is morals and ethics and the dignity of Man. He doesn't have to be an economist to recognize the moral failure of capitalism and the dramatic social consequences of institutionalized greed. He is wise enough not to propose any particular economic system, but he has the right and duty to condemn any system which does not respect human dignity.
Well put, Sertorio!
cassowary wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:29 am

He should stick to religion which governs individual behavior.
Where do you draw the line? In the 1920's the Vatican struck up such a deal with Benito Mussilini's Fascist Italian state which subsequent right wing totalitarian dictatorship, (including Nazi Germany) laid claim to and got. Then as evidence of the crimes and misdeeds of these regimes mounted the Vatican found that it had relinquished the right to speak up in opposition - for which the Vatican has been censured ever since.

Given that precedent, wherever The Pope (advised, no doubt, by some of the most erudite advisers available) perceives evil in the World he had not only a right but a duty to speak up against it.
cassowary wrote:
Tue Feb 11, 2020 5:29 am
Economics is not his expertise.
But he knows what evil looks like when he sees it.

When you are guided by the Holy Spirit it cannot be otherwise.

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